Returned Adventist Ministers to Former Members

[Woody]

Laz. Thank you for this testimony. But we have to go a step further. The church does nothing to support ... and then they sit in judgment and condemn those who are hurting.

If the story just stopped where you ended it by just "INaction" that would be one thing. But usually they take it a step further unfortunately with the wrong action.

[Amelia]

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The advice I recently gave to a close relative of mine concerning her martital problems was DO NOT expect the church to support you or your husband. If they do thats a blessing but do not be dissapointed. Its sad that I as a Pastor have to say that but this is what I've seen.

The Pastor of her church took two months to call back with the name and number of a counsellor. During the interval he did not once call to see how she was. There has been violence in the home but the church did nothing. Not even a phone call.

This is not every church, every pastor, every elder. Its way way too many for me!

I agree Laz. The church raises great hoopla when there is a marriage or a baby. But when someone mentions a problem marriage or divorce, just watch them scatter like cockroaches in the light.

[lazarus]

Could it be that the very people who are in leadership positions and expected to provide support feel they have no "authority" because their marriages are messed up too!

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just watch them scatter like cockroaches in the light.

[Woody]

Could it be that the very people who are in leadership positions and expected to provide support feel they have no "authority" because their marriages are messed up too!

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just watch them scatter like cockroaches in the light.

Laz ... you do not need "authority" to help those in need. Someone who has or had a troubled marriage would be the best ones to try to reach out. They would truly know of the struggles and heartaches. It is not about intellectual knowledge or an ability to demonstrate purity. It is about giving support, love, friendship, time, acceptance,a listening ear and encouragement.

[Woody]

OK. This has got me going.

When I was on a search committee for a new Pastor ... I told them that I wanted a Pastor who was a sinner and openly admitted it. I did not want someone who was playing the part of being a "saint".

Those who are sinners and have been through the war can better relate and know how to reach out to those who are struggling.

I am really tired of the idea that the Pastor has to have some type of righteous "authority". NO. He needs to be sinner that has struggled but knows the direction that help can be found even if he hasn't arrived himself.

[Dr. Shane]

I come from a broken family. My mother was married and divorced nine times. Depending on the congregation we were members of at the time, some were very supportive of her. In my mother's cases, each one of her marriages was started on sin. She always married unbelievers and a divorce always followed. I find it hard to believe that a person that sins by marrying an unbeliever should not later be allowed to divorce when they realize the depth of their sin. Of course when children are involved I certainly understand why they would opt to stay.

The church does need to do more for our marriages and families. Our church has a couples ministry, a women's ministry and a men's ministry. Our pastor has been very responsive when my wife and I have asked him to help us work out some marital issues we have had. However I know that not all congregations are blessed like we are.

However we should not look at what we can get from our church but rather what we can give to it. If a person's church is lacking a couple's ministry, that is a God-given opportunity for the person to start one.

Finely, those suffering from divorce need our sympathy and support during their healing period. Divorce not only shows the personal failures of the two involved in the marriage, but also reflects on the failure of the church which should have been ministering to them. We do not have to condone a person's divorce in order to give them sympathy and support. I believe some divorces are justified and others are not but I need not make a judgment call on the specific divorces of others in the church. They can work that out with God and if they come to the conclusion that they did indeed sin by getting divorced, they can be assured that no sin is too great for God to forgive. The blood of Christ is sufficient.

[Woody]

Thank you Shane. You have stated it very well.

I especially liked the following ...

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However we should not look at what we can get from our church but rather what we can give to it. If a person's church is lacking a couple's ministry, that is a God-given opportunity for the person to start one.

This is SO very important. We can so often criticize the church. And I include myself because I am famous for criticizing the church. But, after the criticism .... we need to act and take care of the problem we have identified.

Too often we blame leadership including the Pastor. As if somehow the Pastor is suppose to do each and every ministry. We are a body. Each is responsible to do their part in ministry. Hopefully the Pastor is ecouraging the members to each do a ministry. But the Pastor can't take you by the hand. YOU need to step out and put your foot into the water. I am sure that once that is done ... others will come to your assistance.

I would encourage all of you to do your part. Even those who can't get out much can do something.

I am not able to get to church much. But I found a love in being a church clerk. Through this ministry I was able to be aware of the needs of the members. The Pastor kept me informed of individual needs or I would keep HIM informed. I was able to write and call members who were in need. I got good at sending cards and letters. There can be a ministry for each and every person willing.

This is the way to form unity of the believers. Each can do their part.

[Clio]

I hope that the people reading this thread do not have to go through the lack of support that the church provides or doesn't provide. I especially hope that those doing the self righteous thing don't have to experience what the church can and does do to it's people.

[Dr. Shane]

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Our church is a very non-supportive, unloving denomination. We're very cold as a people. We "love all men" but how do we show it?

I would say this comment is based on one person's limited experience. I have found some churches to be very cold. However, for the most part, I have found the churches I have attended to be quite warm. Mostly I have found the truth that we get out of it what we put into it and to have a friend we have to be a friend.

We can complain that other church members never call us during the week, but how many times do we call other church members?

We can complain that other church members never invite us to their homes, but how many times to we invite other church members to our homes?

We can complain that the church doesn't have enough social activities but how many times have we invited a group of church members to go to the beach, zoo, park or roller-skating rink with us?

I have found that when I reach out to others my hand in friendship, most of the time I am warmly received. When I wait for others to reach out to me, my phone doesn't ring and no one breaks down my door trying to get in.

[Clio]

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Our church is a very non-supportive, unloving denomination. We're very cold as a people. We "love all men" but how do we show it?

I would say this comment is based on one person's limited experience. I have found some churches to be very cold. However, for the most part, I have found the churches I have attended to be quite warm. Mostly I have found the truth that we get out of it what we put into it and to have a friend we have to be a friend.

We can complain that other church members never call us during the week, but how many times do we call other church members?

We can complain that other church members never invite us to their homes, but how many times to we invite other church members to our homes?

We can complain that the church doesn't have enough social activities but how many times have we invited a group of church members to go to the beach, zoo, park or roller-skating rink with us?

I have found that when I reach out to others my hand in friendship, most of the time I am warmly received. When I wait for others to reach out to me, my phone doesn't ring and no one breaks down my door trying to get in.

Hmmmm Limited. Loma Linda, Walla Walla, College Place, Manassas, Tacoma Park, Chesterfield, Sacramento, San Antonio, Dallas, Fairbanks.

Limited. Quite.

Tell me Shane, if you read the list I gave, where would someone in any of those scenarios struggling that hard just to live, have the time, funds, or energy to do what you say?

Did you even read past the rest of the post? How many families and individuals need to implode before our church wakes up to the idea that relationships are important, maybe more important, to the winning of souls for Jesus than beating someone over the head with doctrine?

For someone who goes to church every week, knows members, and who doesn't stretch out their hand to call or make the first move, I totally agree with you. No one in the church will beat down their door to try and find out why they're not participating in church activities when they're sitting in a pew every week. You have to be a friend to have friends. Absolutely.

That's not what we're talking about here.

[Dr. Shane]

Each and every one of us has limited experience because we have lived only one life. While I lived in nine states by the time I was in the tenth grade, my experience is still limited to one individual - me. So unless we do extensive surveys and case studies where we investigate and interview multiple people in multiple circumstances we are not in a position to make sweeping statements like we often hear made.

Struggling single moms in the circumstances described above are extreme cases and rare. My mother was in a similar situation during much of my childhood but I suspect such cases make up less than 1% of our church's membership. Most churches are not prepared to deal with such cases and in developed countries social services normally handle those needs from financial assistance to grief counseling. Now that doesn't mean that the church can't help them get the services provided for by the state.

I am not one that is going to side with those that attack God's remnant church. If we place unrealistic expectations on anyone or organization we are setting ourselves up to be let down and become bitter. The church is made up of sinners. It is not perfect. It should not be expected to be perfect. If we want a better church it starts with us.

[Woody]

What you have said is true Shane. But what Clio has said is also true. Can both be true .... yes.

There will always be some that are hurt. And who will that be ??

It will be those who Clio have described. There are a small few that have dedicated their lives to helping those who Clio describes. There is not much fanfare of glory in helping them so they do not get much attention. It is just plain old hard work.

But ... it does begin with us. Are we doing what we can? Even though we are hurting ... the way to medicate that is to do our part in helping others. I have been hurt in the past. I longed for help from the church but just got ignored. Totally. Even though I reached out to the church .... I still got ignored. That hurts.

Now .... I prefer to help others rather than to receive help. Yes ... I do still need help. But perhaps I've given up on getting it. And it makes me feel far better when I give than when I receive.

And let me say it again ... ANYONE can give. I don't care WHO you are or what disability you have. ALL can give something to make this world and church a better place.

"And let it begin with me ..."

[Dr. Shane]

I don't mean to say single moms are rare. They are not. The case described above is that of a single mom that doesn't have gas to go to the food bank, money for medicine and a sick husband that creates an enormous emotional burden. In the US, people that are so poor they don't have enough gas to go to the food bank would, in most cases, qualify for medical assistance so they wouldn't have to deal with the issue of buying medicine. In countries like Mexico, people that poor do not even have a car to put gas into and would use the bus system to go to the food bank. In extreme cases, they do not have money for the bus. So I wasn't trying to say single moms are rare, just that those that down and out are. There was a time when my mother was single with us kids and we didn't have a car or a refrigerator.

[olger]

It ticks me off....

[Woody]

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You have no...idea...

This seems just a little condescending. I think that Neil has just as much knowledge of what the "church" does as you do. He may even have MORE of an idea.

He indicated his knowledge just as you have .... but to say that he has NO idea .... when he clearly articulated what he knew and experienced .... is very demeaning to another person.

Please try to accept people as they are and the experiences they share. To say that YOUR experience is better or more knowledgable is hurtful and discounting of others. Neil does have an idea and he stated it.

[olger]

Dear Redwood. As you can see, I was speaking to Neil. Nevertheless, I will be happy to answer you.

I am referring to myself in the aforementioned sentence and the hundreds of people we have had the opportunity to minister to. Ours is not an abstract opinion based on delaminated self opinion. We are in the trenches. I value Neil's opinion too--his experience with divorce is his experience and no one can say "That's not how it was..!!"

I also appreciate your honest admission that you have been overly critical of the church. I understand and agree.

Repeat: No one seems to be saying that their experience is better than others. You widely missed the mark here. I sign off wishing you a better aim in the future, and a wonderful day (what's left of it).

In His love,

og

[Jeannieb43]

I know that this comes as a shock, but those who are in the church are usually victims of divorce...they are the ones who already have a humble attitude and want to be close to God and desire His presence to be comforted. Granted, some want justification for hating thier spouse as they can make the separation better, but some just want the pain to go away.

A kind word goes a long way here...

Most of the time, our church ignores these people. These are people who the devil has a great time tormenting. These are people who feel guilty, who are running senerios of "what if I had done this instead of that..."

That is why I jumped all over Olger. That is why I was so harsh... If I can just get someone to really think thru thier responses to divorced people, if I can get someone to say a kind word to a divorced person....Gosh, what a better place this world would be....At least, it would make the transition of divorce better...

IMHO, "being divorced" is only one of many, many illnesses suffered by the members of most SDA churches. Too often we're just not sensitive to the needs of people with whom we rub shoulders every week.

For instance, one of my newly baptized friends is a divorce'e who is single-parenting her teenage son. She is a delightful, intelligent woman who has accepted this message completely. She still has SO many tasks, however, which [since she is a full-time professional woman] seem [to her] to be able to accomplished only on Saturdays. It pains me when she misses church. I meet with her for lunch often, and she says she loves to use me as her mentor with problems -- career, child-rearing, and church-related. Well, I'm always dying to say to her "Regular attendance at Sabbath School and church has always been the best inspiration for me." But I bite my tongue and just pray for her.

Sequel: Three days ago she left me a voicemail (responding to my most recent call to her, voicemail also) telling me she's having a TERRIBLE time because one of her five cats just had to be euthanized because it was so ill. She also has a dog. Now, I thought to myself, Oh that's sad. But what I SHOULD have done was to send her a SYMPATHY CARD in the mail, some flowers, and a telephone call of condolences for her kitty. She told me, word for word, that it was almost harder to lose the kitty than to lose a family member. But I didn't RECOGNIZE that plea for help.

Anyway, I'm going to the store right now for a sympathy card. I need to tune my senses a little sharper.

Moral of the Story: Being divorced is not everybody's worst nightmare. There might be others which to some people are even worse than that; and we should become sensitive to them.

[Denise]

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Anyway, I'm going to the store right now for a sympathy card. I need to tune my senses a little sharper.

That's really sweet and sensitive of you Jeannieb43! She is really going to appreciate that. I know when I was getting my kittens spayed and neutered at 5 months of age, the vet Dr. made a horrible mistake on my favorite kitty, and she ended up dying in my arms. It was a painful experience! And I know, as myself, being a cat and animal lover, that she must be hurting as well. It's nice for someone to be sensitive of your pain. My daughter and neice brought me some flowers and a few gifts to help cheer me up. It was comforting to know someone cared, even though I was in pain......and just last night, I had a dear friend, elderly man call me to tell me his wife just died last Friday. They have been friends for years, and use to live here, but moved to Florida, but we keep in touch. I was so hurt to hear that she passed away....they made such a sweet couple, and now he was alone.....I just stayed on the phone with him and listened.....he really loved her.....and I am going to make a special card for him......a memory of their love. They were a really special couple to me, and it hurt to hear the loss. She was a strong Christian woman, strong in Faith, and will be missed very much.

Ooooppps, sorry everybody, it seems I got off the topic here! LOL I was just spilling my heart out....

[Neil D]

.....and I am going to make a special card for him......a memory of their love. They were a really special couple to me, and it hurt to hear the loss. She was a strong Christian woman, strong in Faith, and will be missed very much.

Ooooppps, sorry everybody, it seems I got off the topic here! LOL I was just spilling my heart out....

Well, I'll tell you what....I will forgive your transgression of getting off topic IF you will make that special card.

...... and thus add a bit of happiness and kindness in the world.

[Denise]

Well, why thank you Neil!

[Clio]

Struggling single moms in the circumstances described above are extreme cases and rare. My mother was in a similar situation during much of my childhood but I suspect such cases make up less than 1% of our church's membership.

[Woody]

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I also appreciate your honest admission that you have been overly critical of the church. I understand and agree.

Olger ... at NO time did I ever say that I have been "overly critical" of the church. Sorry to disappoint something that you thought you liked in me. But this is a fine example of you misquoting me. I hope that again does not make me DIShonest in your eyes.

At least I hope you don't call me a "coward" again like last time. Telling you I have not done what you "admired" takes a lot of "courage" don't you think?

[Woody]

Clio ... if we are not able to clearly see that a much better job can be done ... then there is something wrong with our eyesight.

What Would Jesus Say ??? Would he say that the church doesn't have to be perfect ... we are doing just fine and not to worry further about the single Moms, the poor, the lonely and the disabled???

But WOW ... Don't be critical of what the church is doing or not doing here on CA. This could be dangerous !!! And unbecoming !!

After all ... we are happy the way we are. Right ??

[Clio]

I don't mean to say single moms are rare. They are not. The case described above is that of a single mom that doesn't have gas to go to the food bank, money for medicine and a sick husband that creates an enormous emotional burden. In the US, people that are so poor they don't have enough gas to go to the food bank would, in most cases, qualify for medical assistance so they wouldn't have to deal with the issue of buying medicine. In countries like Mexico, people that poor do not even have a car to put gas into and would use the bus system to go to the food bank. In extreme cases, they do not have money for the bus. So I wasn't trying to say single moms are rare, just that those that down and out are. There was a time when my mother was single with us kids and we didn't have a car or a refrigerator.

Not true Shane.

Those are separate instances and separate families. They are people I ran into and helped even when I had little or nothing to share.

I gave food boxes because I had food to share. I gave time to help with homework and encouraged my older kids to help with younger kids to alleviate the burden.

I went and sat with someone else's husband so she could go to church.

All things that didn't cost me anything but time because time was all I had to give.

The sad thing was, out of several hundred people, no one else did.

And as far as navigating our assistance system... what a joke! I've been through that. There is a certain level of income where you can't make ends meet, but you don't actually qualify for much of anything either. And then there's the waiting period while they determine how long the situation is going to go on.

One lady made $50 per month too much to qualify for any kind of assistance, but still had to choose between food and gas because skimping on the medication wasn't an option. It's a real hardship when the foodbank distributes the foodboxes through the churches at different times of the week and the only churches willing to do food distribution aren't on the bus system.

[olger]

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I also appreciate your honest admission that you have been overly critical of the church. I understand and agree.

Olger ... at NO time did I ever say that I have been "overly critical" of the church. Sorry to disappoint something that you thought you liked in me. But this is a fine example of you misquoting me. I hope that again does not make me DIShonest in your eyes.