Returned Adventist Ministers to Former Members

[Woody]

Thank you for clarifying for the record what I said.

Please notice that at NO time did I use the word "overly" which was what you accused me of saying.

I do not view my criticism as "overly" critical. I used the word "famous" not "infamous".

If at any time you would like to apologize ... I am willing to accept whatever you feel is appropriate.

[Woody]

Quote:

Perhaps you just forgot...

yes yes,

olger

No NO. I didn't forget. I remember very clearly and then you perverted what I said.

[olger]

I give up. Let me know when you are willing to face things like a man, and communicate in private for the sake of those who may be watching.

Still breathing,

og

[Woody]

I have nothing to say to you Olger except what I say online. I will continue to point out your verbal abuse and personal attacks on me.

[olger]

As you wish, my friend. God bless you today, and tomorrow as you rest in Him. Sorry if that sounded abusive.

og

[Amelia]

Fighting over a word gets everyone nowhere very fast. Lets not do that ok?

[aldona]

Just putting in my $0.02 worth here, not a response to any specific person...

I have been following this thread and I am increasingly dismayed at the attitudes and tones I am sensing in the communications.

I work with a bunch of people who are mostly not religious at all, (with a few lapsed Catholics, non-practicing Jews, nominal Christians of various denominations and a couple of Buddhists), and they would never dream of speaking to one another in some of the ways demonstrated here, especially if someone was hurting or in trouble.

The unconditional love and support I have felt from my work colleagues when I have been going through difficulties of various kinds, far exceeds anything I have ever found from anybody in the church.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John 13;35). I think that says it all.

aldona

[olger]

I gotta agree, Amelia. Life is too short to argue our way through it.

towards reconciliation,

olger

[Jeannieb43]

I know when I was getting my kittens spayed and neutered at 5 months of age, the vet Dr. made a horrible mistake on my favorite kitty, and she ended up dying in my arms. It was a painful experience! And I know, as myself, being a cat and animal lover, that she must be hurting as well. It's nice for someone to be sensitive of your pain.

..and just last night, I had a dear friend, elderly man call me to tell me his wife just died last Friday. They have been friends for years, and use to live here, but moved to Florida, but we keep in touch. I was so hurt to hear that she passed away....they made such a sweet couple, and now he was alone.....I just stayed on the phone with him and listened.....he really loved her.....and I am going to make a special card for him......a memory of their love.

Thank you, Denise. Your tender heart is such a blessing to those around you. And I'm so sorry about the loss of your own pet kitten.

This is a good "family" community for all of us, to share one another's burdens.

Happy Sabbath, all.

[Neil D]

Well, why thank you Neil!

Yeah, well, don't let it go to your head...I have been known to be an onery ol' Koot...[appologys to David] {pun intended}

[darlene]

I have been following this thread from time to time and have been very sad to see the way we treat one another here. It is certainly not with Christ-like love and respect. We don't even bother to find out what the other person is really saying. We just jump all over each other, judge and comdemn. Am I ever guilty of this? Probably. However, that does not excuse me. We are such a pathetic group of people. Did Jesus ever behave the way we are? No! Shouldn't we be like him? Yes!

This is a very sad example of why the 70% who experience divorce leave the church in the first year of their divorce. We, both you and I, MUST change. We MUST become like Jesus.

[Denise]

Your a trip Neil! I'll try not to let it get to my head, ok? LOL

[Denise]

Your Welcome Jeannieb43. Your a sweet person, thanks for your sweetness, that is a blessing to others as well! God Bless!

[pacunurse30]

Quote:

Ultimately, it should come as no surprise when a divorce leads to leaving the church. Think for a moment, what symbolizes the relationship between God and His church?

This is an outrage. I completely disagree. It SHOULD be a surprise. The church is made up of sinners of all kinds. When a divorce fails ... the church should take EXTRA care to love and support each person in the broken marriage. IF that was done ... then there would be NO need for them to leave the church.

And it is the fault of the church when they leave. If they had done their Christian duty to care for the ones going through divorce ... then the break up with the "church" would not be needed. Let him without sin cast the first stone.

Let me fill you in on the "rest" of the story regarding Mike Jones. I heard him recently on 3ABN. It went something like this .... The first time he brought back his wife to church .... some righteous SDA saint ... walked up to him and put her hand in his chest and said .... "I know who you are". "You are not welcome here". "You are the mark of the Beast".

This is the kind of welcome that those who have been divorced get. It must stop. And the church IS responsible for them leaving.

Wow, Redwood I read some of the things here and on other sites on the web and I'm stunned. I haven't quite had this experience in Adventism, and I don't know if it's because I live in a different Adventist "world." I grew up Adventist, but I'm Black. The Black Adventist experience seems to be vastly different from the White one. I'm not saying that Black Adventists are more accepting, loving, righteous, etc. However, I think because of the issues that plague our community in general, it is not uncommon to have divorcees, single parents, unwed pregnant women/teens, etc. in the church. As a matter of fact, my present church is FULL of single mothers who were never married. We have a lot of ministries in our church, and one of them is for members who are divorced or are currently going through one. Perhaps more of our churches need to have this approach. Creating ministries that offer godly counsel and support to these individuals. There is no point in condemning and pointing out sin after someone has already done it and suffered the effects from it. Divorce is extremely painful even if the breakup was mutually decided. Why go over the things the person should have done to save their marriage when it's already disolved?

[olger]

I'm glad to hear your perspective, Pn30. "The dragon is wroth at the church.."

There are many stories of forgiveness, reconciliation, of people doing kindly in the face of scorn etc, and we need to hear these things. They are encouraging.

When all we hear is a generation of gripers (pardon the pun) then we, like Paul warned, slowly become wise to what is evil and ignorant to what is good.

all the best,

olger

[pacunurse30]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Struggling single moms in the circumstances described above are extreme cases and rare. My mother was in a similar situation during much of my childhood but I suspect such cases make up less than 1% of our church's membership.

That you could make such a statement just boggles my mind. They are NOT rare at all!

Quote:

Most churches are not prepared to deal with such cases and in developed countries social services normally handle those needs from financial assistance to grief counseling.

Hooey!

Quote:

Now that doesn't mean that the church can't help them get the services provided for by the state.

Well, the only assistance she got was being talked about, brushed aside, and told she was a moocher. It was said in my hearing that she really didn't need to get the food boxes for so long, because food stamps ought to be enough. Except she didn't quite qualify for foodstamps, so she really only had the food boxes to live on....

Quote:

I am not one that is going to side with those that attack God's remnant church.

Who's attacking? We claim to be His remnant church, but we don't do a very good job of reaching out to the widows, orphans, single parents (male or female), or any other form of "the least of these" that Jesus tells us if we do for them we've done for Him.

Quote:

If we place unrealistic expectations on anyone or organization we are setting ourselves up to be let down and become bitter. The church is made up of sinners. It is not perfect. It should not be expected to be perfect. If we want a better church it starts with us.

*snort* the usual shield of people who don't want to see what really happens.

I don't know what church you attend, but if you or someone you know could influence the leadership then I have a suggestion. At our church we collect offerings for members who are in dire circumstances financially. Some were on the brink of eviction. Some were about to lose their homes. We do one of two things. On one of those extra lines on the tithe envelope we write "members in need" and the amount. Or, after prayer meeting on wednesdays, there are elders at the door with buckets to collect offerings. Those offerings are specifically for members in need. The church also has a seminar called "Financial Peace University." The teacher is Dave Ramsey, a well known Christian financial counselor (non-SDA, but values many principles that are similar). Members who repeatedly get into trouble are put through the program to help them learn strategies to manage the money that they do have.

[Dr. Shane]

When I was a child the church once collected an offering and I don't remember what they said it was for but I remember it was quite an appeal and the members gave generously and my mother was quite surprised after church when they gave it to her. Although she was a single mother that struggled with smoking and alcoholism there were many Adventist churches that reached out to our family in many ways to help. We were allowed to attend the church school for the cost of our books and I remember the Dorcas taking me out to buy me a new pair of shoes. The church threw a wedding shower for my mother when she married her fourth, non-Adventist husband!

It is going to take a lot of talking to convince me that there are not good, loving Adventist churches out there.

[Taylor]

Wow that is an incredible testimony Shane! I too have known alot of incredibly caring churches!! Thanks so much for sharing!

[olger]

Quote:

It is going to take a lot of talking to convince me that there are not good, loving Adventist churches out there.

These are the kind of stories that warm the heart and encourage people. Hopefully we will see more of these..

Thanks

olger

[Clio]

There are some, Shane. I'm not saying there aren't. I'm saying as a people, in general, there are more who are insular, unwilling to help if it inconveniences them, or unwilling to help in ways that are most needed.

Help isn't help if the person receiving it doesn't find it helpful or doesn't need that particular kind of help.

That point was brought home to me when my mother was dying of cancer. I knew she needed help, more than I could give alone from 2200 miles away. I contacted the church she had attended faithfully for 15 years and asked if someone could visit her once a week, sit with her, and maybe do some light cleaning so she wouldn't worry about not having a clean home.

The church decided to be helpful. They cooked some wonderful meals and brought them to my parents so neither my father, who didn't have time or energy, nor my mother, who was physically unable, had to cook. Someone would gather all the dishes from the ladies who brought them to church on Sabbath morning, drop them all off on Sabbath afternoon and consider their good deed done for the week. Conveniently.

Lovely, helpful gesture, right? My mother appreciated it greatly, the whole while she was unable to eat more than a bite of anything, and my father guiltily threw most of it away and went out for dinner. On the way to which he carefully returned spotlessly washed casserole dishes, plates, and pans.

What my mother and father really needed, was for someone to sit with my mom, read to her, hold her hand, and just be there while the illness took it's toll. If they vacuumed, and straightened up the few dishes in the kitchen while she napped fitfully, that would have been wonderful.

No one bothered to ask, and my parents were to concerned about hurting peoples feelings to say anything.

The point is that even if you think you are "helping", if you haven't stopped to ask, investigate, and really *see* what the object of your help needs it's really not help. It's more stress.

In my parents case, it wasn't so much hardship help as it was sympathy help, but the principle remains the same only elevated if you're trying to help someone in a hardship case.