Illegals

[Woody]

What will happen next ...

Now the illegals are setting fires at our borders so it will deflect the border agents according to news reports. They showed entire hillsides on fire.

And we want THESE people in our country?

[there buster]

thieves, embezzlers, and scam artists are also children of God.

would you feel justified in helping them elude the police as well?

just asking.

[David Koot]

Howdy dgrimm, just wanted to share a couple of thoughts in response to your posts. The national economy is like an engine that needs to stay in tune. If you retard the timing a few notches, set the valve lash too tight or things like that, the engine can get in serious trouble. Actually, I think the economy is way more precarious than an engine. If care is not exercised, it may implode. Then lots and lots of people will be out of jobs.

Dave

[Woody]

Quote:

most of the Mexicans I have meet are not thieves---

embezzlers---scam artists----or any other crime.

I'm sorry ... I thought the topic of this thread was "illegals". What does the term illegal mean to you. To me ... it means that they are guilty of a "crime".

[Tom Wetmore]

From a Native American perspective we who are not all would seem to be illegals or descendants of illegals...

And but for extended mercy we who are illegals of God's creation should all be deported from existence permanently...

Quote:

The quality of mercy is not strained,

It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven,

Upon the place beneath.

It is twice blessed.

It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

It is mightiest in the mightiest,

It becomes the throned monarch better than his crown.

Though justice be thy plea, consider this,

That in the course of justice we all must see salvation,

We all do pray for mercy

And that same prayer doth teach us all to render the deeds of mercy.

--- Portia to Shylock in The Merchant of Venice, by William Shakespeare

Quote:

I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits than strict justice.

--- Abraham Lincoln

Quote:

What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God. --- Micah 6:8

Tom

[Woody]

Render unto Ceasar ....

Should a Christian be in open defiance of the laws?

It seems our immigration laws are reasonable. Should we encourage people to break them?

If we do .... are we not discriminating against the law abiding immigrants? And thus we are encouraging cheating.

[Woody]

Quote:

as christians we are to obey the law of the land but

we are to put GOD'S LAWS 1ST above man's laws.

I am not aware of any of God's laws that state our immigration laws are contrary to HIS laws. As a Christian .... It seems that our immigration laws are VERY fair. Are you suggesting that we should do away with ALL immigration laws and just let whoever pleases into our country to enjoy the benefits and privileges?

I hope you will respond and indicate which immigration laws you feel are contrary to God's laws. And by the way .... I am still wondering what the term "illegal" means to you? When YOU do something illegal .... do you not consider it a crime?

[there buster]

No one said most Mexicans are thieves, etc.

The point is that you have decided that the 'christian' thing to do is to aid people who break this particular law.

Their crime is not 'that they are poor and need a job.' Their crime is that they entered this country illegally.

Quote:

are we setting ourselfs up to jump on the band wagon until

we are the ones (SDA) THAT people are trying to get rid of???

This is simply unrelated to the discussion. Is there any native-born or naturalized group of citizens that people are 'trying to get rid of?' No. That's an irrelevant scare tactic. It has about as much to do with the immigration debate as a lightning bug does to lightning.

[there buster]

Quote:

From a Native American perspective we who are not all would seem to be illegals or descendants of illegals...

The 'native Americans' themselves came here from elsewhere, they were not 'a' nation but many tribes, and they did not hesitate to raid one another for territory, wives, and slaves. They had no unified 'immigration' policy, except to go wherever they could get away with. They had no defined borders. Other than that it's identical.

Stirring rhetoric, but weak reasoning.

Quote:

And but for extended mercy we who are illegals of God's creation should all be deported from existence permanently...

Have you crossed the border into Heaven illegally lately? Oh, you can't get there, can you? In fact, no one will be allowed into heaven or the new earth who does not meet certain requirements. Those requirements may be merciful, they may be generous, but they are not non-existent.

Yes, in God we 'live, and move, and have our being,' but that will cease for many, perhaps most. We are in the process of qualifying to emigrate from this world to the next. Not all will make it. The Bible lists qualities which will disqualify many from gaining entry.

[Dr. Shane]

I think the Bible verse that best applies to illeagals is Proverbs 6:30:

"Men do not despise a thief if he steals To satisfy himself when he is hungry;"

Most entering other countries illegally do so because they cannot support themselves or their families back home. The problem is not unique to The United States.

We shouldn't direct our frustration toward these peasants coming to work in our fields, slaughterhouses, restaurants and other low-paying jobs. Our frustration should be directed toward the government that does not take control of the situation.

The government needs to control immigration so as to control growth, provide security by denying entrance of those with criminal histories and protect public health by screening for such diseases as HIV and TB. The US government is failing to do these things. Mexico protects its southern border much better than the US protects is border and coast line.

[there buster]

One does not have to 'despise' anyone to enforce a just law.

I do not despise illegals.

Bringing emotion into this discussion does not illuminate the debate. Instead, it obscures the real issues.

A country's borders are like a person's skin. If we cannot control what comes in or goes out of our bodies, we will soon sicken and die. The same is true for any country's borders.

As you point out, this is not exclusively an American problem. Several European countries are already sick from uncontrolled and unassimilated immigrants. And if reasonable cures are not adopted, unreasonable ones may win the day.

Those who are purportedly concerned about this turning into a pogrom against SDA's should take note of that.

[Gail]

I don't know if there is any inappropriate time or situation to minister to others in the name of Jesus and share the gospel with them. I think that is what Doug has been doing

[there buster]

Quote:

I don't know if there is any inappropriate time or situation to minister to others in the name of Jesus and share the gospel with them.

I would not let illegals starve on my doorstep. I would (and have, as a matter of fact) assist them in their basic needs. I would urge them to turn themselves in, and if they did not do so, I would report them.

The idea that there is a conflict between Christian duty and a citizen's duty in this case is at best not demonstrated, at worst simply untrue. I object to the attempt to portray them as in conflict.

[Woody]

Yes. Ed you are so right. The Illegals got themselves into this mess and we should help them get themselves out of the mess by either convincing them to turn themselves in ... or report them to the authorities. Helping them to continue to break the law is not good for them or us.

[Dr. Shane]

I really just see this as a minor misdemeanor offense like jay-walking. Jay walking is crossing the street illegally. This is crossing the border illegally. If the governments had there act together, nearly 90% of those that come in legally would be allowed in on temporary work visas anyway.

The biggest issue is the 10% or so that come in with criminal backgrounds or contagious diseases. They do cause a lot of problems. And we need to have a zero tolerance on drunk driving by recent immigrants. Immirgrants that are found guilty for drunk driving within the first five years after immirgrating here should be deported and never allowed back. If they are found later to have returned, they should be imprisoned for one year and than deported again. In fact, maybe we should send them to Guantanamo for that one year. Those that have been here longer than five years should be punished just like citizens on the first offense but at some point, if they have not become citizens, they need to be deported too.

[Tom Wetmore]

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household," -- Eph. 2:19

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

I am not aware of any of God's laws that state our immigration laws are contrary to HIS laws. As a Christian ... It seems that our immigration laws are VERY fair...

I hope you will respond and indicate which immigration laws you feel are contrary to God's laws. And by the way ...

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God." -- Lev. 19:33-4

"The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the Lord." -- Numbers 15:15

"For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt." -- Deu. 10:17-9

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.

And again ... I will ask you .... Which one of our laws mistreats the illegals. And by the way ... your quote does not say "illegal" aliens ... it says "alien". I think we treat our aliens equally in all aspects.

[Neil D]

Interesting....Christians should follow the law and deport/report the illegal alien....

Tell me again.....Why did the illegal alien come into this country again? Seems to me that if those who were so against illegals would require the employer [aka law abiding citizen]to enforce his requrired background check, [and I know that it cost $$ to do a background check], then we wouldn't have this problem...would we? And yes, I know that they can get fake id, but as I said, if we made it hard for them to get jobs, then the problem would not be anywhere that enormous in the first place.... But we legal citizens want cheap labor!!!!

[Woody]

Neil ... Is that an excuse you are giving for the illegals to break the laws of this land?

Just because you think you can get away with breaking the law ... does not give you the right to do it.

[Gail]

Does it matter if the alien is a refugee or just seeking to better his/her life?

[Dr. Shane]

I think Neil hits the nail right on the head. We don't enforce the law because we want cheap labor. However it isn't just wanting it, in some industries it is needing it. Some industries would simply be closed down by global competition without cheap labor. So it isn't just about greed but also about survival. We need these illegals as much as they need us.

It is the 10% or so that are causing all the trouble.

[Jeannieb43]

I maintain that we do NOT "need" illegal aliens. The LEGAL immigrants will work just as cheaply.

The problem lies in the difficulty of all the paperwork required for the immigrant to become legal. We need to try to assist those who wish to come here legally -- on a case-by-case basis. I can't file their papers for them, but I can point them to someone who can help them do so. Then when they have their green cards, I can hire them in my business.

I canNOT afford to continue paying for our open borders. Those people and their children are using up my tax dollars for their education and their medical care. They need to complete the process legally. Otherwise we continue having chaos.

At least in California.

[Jeannieb43]

Does it matter if the alien is a refugee or just seeking to better his/her life?

Here in California we have multitudes of Eastern European refugees who are actually here legally. There seems to be no quota to those who can show they've been persecuted for their religion; hence, the U.S. welcomes them in. However, some of them also seem to be misusing our largesse -- obtaining food stamps, buying their groceries with food stamps, then driving away from the supermarket in their brand new Mercedes autos.

We don't find that type of thing with the Mexican aliens. First of all, if they're illegal they don't qualify for welfare assistance; and secondly, whether legal or illegal, they usually work diligently and never seek public assistance.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

whether legal or illegal, they usually work diligently and never seek public assistance.

I wish I could agree but in Texas there is a much different picture. We do have a lot of illegals and legals alike working the system. We have a lot of Mexicans, living in Mexico, that come over here to have their babies, get a US mailing address and collect welfare and food stamps for their American-born babies while they live in Mexico. They also get an American citizen to claim their child on their income tax and split the child tax credit with them.

The good news is that the welfare dependence among the second generation is significantly less than among the first generation. So immigration is not a long-term cause of poverty in America.

The system of allowing immigrants to come in legally does need a major overhaul. However we need border security if we are ever going to stop the flow of illegals. My point is if we stop the flow of illegals, we then have to turn around and increase the flow of legals because we need the cheap labor. Six one way and half a dozen the other.