Gays can't change

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: D. Allan

We really should listen to them. Commuication means listening is done by all involved. And why should we ask them to change when we can't even change ourselves (do we have something to boast of?)

2 way communication is fine. If you want to listen to their agenda, that's your prerogative. I already know what it is.

Gerry

If we want to minister to somebody it is ALWAYS good to hear their EXPERIENCE. We know the agenda but we don't know their experience. I have found that hearing their experience puts me in a place where the Spirit can use me.

Thanks John for your testimony. It helped mature the nature of the discussion.

[lazarus]

Quote:

If a gay person accepts Christ, can't he continue practicing his gay lifestyle in the assurance that Christ's righteousness covers his sins? If that is true, can't he be saved during his homosexual practices? Why does he need to give them up if his faith releases him from the law of God that says it is a sin to do those things?

I know your question is a carry over from discussions elsewhere. I don't really want to get into that ongoing battle but here's my simple answer:

Amplified Bible:

Romans 3:31 Do we then by [this] faith make the Law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law.

ESV. Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Faith enables the law to be written on our hearts which was God original plan (Jeremiah 31:33) Coming to faith in Jesus Christ gives the Homosexual, Murderer, Adulturer the power receive forgiveness and also a tranformation which means that he/she can resist temptation.

If the homosexual believes that sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex are are sinful he has the power available to him from God to resist those temptations.

[Phil. 2:13]---'It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

[John317]

Quote:

If a gay person accepts Christ, can't he continue practicing his gay lifestyle in the assurance that Christ's righteousness covers his sins? If that is true, can't he be saved during his homosexual practices? Why does he need to give them up if his faith releases him from the law of God that says it is a sin to do those things?

I know your question is a carry over from discussions elsewhere. I don't really want to get into that ongoing battle but here's my simple answer:

Amplified Bible:

Romans 3:31 Do we then by [this] faith make the Law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law.

ESV. Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Faith enables the law to be written on our hearts which was God original plan (Jeremiah 31:33) Coming to faith in Jesus Christ gives the Homosexual, Murderer, Adulturer the power receive forgiveness and also a tranformation which means that he/she can resist temptation.

If the homosexual believes that sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex are are sinful he has the power available to him from God to resist those temptations.

[Phil. 2:13]---'It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

Thank you, Lazarus. I completely agree with your answer here. You've managed to say in a few lines all that is probably necessary to say about it on this thread.

In a sense you are right about the question being also related to a discussion on another thread, but the real reason I asked the question here is that there are many people who are uncertain of what the Bible says on this issue.

[John317]

I wonder how many of the fingers pointing to the sin of homosexuality are fingers of those having sex outside of marriage? In the SDA church? Oh yes it's happening. But it's easier to focus on anothers sin than to face one's own.

Yes, unfortunately an all-too-human trait that plagues us all to a degree, in one way or another.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

In a sense you are right about the question being also related to a discussion on another thread, but the real reason I asked the question here is that there are many people who are uncertain of what the Bible says on this issue.

Hi John,

I have done some research on this topic, (knowing what the Bible says about this) and hav come to some conclusions that most people won't like. It's right there in Eomans and it seems as though we hae overlooked it, at least I did. Here's what it says:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. Rom 1:25-27

Reading through that and looking carefully at what Paul has said tells me hat the desire itself is wrong, not only the act. This reveals to me that the whole idea of sexual oerientation, is just an attempt by Satan to deceive, trap and cause people to be lost by the idea that "you are born this way".

I will post more on this if it is wanted. I don't hve time right now must run to work.

Norman

[John317]

Quote:

In a sense you are right about the question being also related to a discussion on another thread, but the real reason I asked the question here is that there are many people who are uncertain of what the Bible says on this issue.

Hi John,

I have done some research on this topic, (knowing what the Bible says about this) and hav come to some conclusions that most people won't like. It's right there in Eomans and it seems as though we hae overlooked it, at least I did. Here's what it says:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. Rom 1:25-27

Reading through that and looking carefully at what Paul has said tells me hat the desire itself is wrong, not only the act. This reveals to me that the whole idea of sexual oerientation, is just an attempt by Satan to deceive, trap and cause people to be lost by the idea that "you are born this way".

I will post more on this if it is wanted. I don't hve time right now must run to work.

Norman

Yes, I agree that the desire to have sex with a member of one's own gender is a sin. In fact, I said as much, several times, on my post, thus:

"The Bible condemns the acts of, and, of course, the sinful desires, that usually accompany 'the homosexual orientation.'"

"When Jesus comes into the life in the way that He wants to, He replaces all those sinful desires with desires for righteouness and obedience to God. That becomes the all-consuming desire of one's life. You really do become a new person, just like the Bible says."

"The sin lies in the desire to act them out in a sexually active way. Jesus can and does take those desires away but it is not something He does overnight."

The point I would make here is that there is a difference between a person "being gay" in their feelings about their own bodies and about how they relate to other people-- for instance, not finding females sexually attractive but viewing them more as just close friends--and the desire to have sex with members of their own gender. The act or the desire to act these things out is what is sinful. A second point I would make here is that God makes it possible for gay people to overcome the desire. The temptation itself is not sin. The sin lies in yielding to temptation. (Of course it goes without saying that it's also a sin if we deliberately hold on to and entertain our sinful desires.) That distinction is important to keep clearly in mind, especially when counseling people.

The comparison does not fit in every detail, but it may be somewhat compared to being an alcoholic or heroin addict. God does not always take away the temptation or the desire to drink, but He does always give the alcoholic or drug addict the power to overcome the temptation. And if they fall into sin but sincerely confess and repent of it and forsake their sin, God is just and merciful to forgive them their sins. God's forgiveness is an absolutely essential part of the healing process.

[Amelia]

Quote:

The temptation itself is not sin. The sin lies in yielding to temptation. It is important to keep that distinction clearly in mind.

Amen

[John317]

Quote:

The temptation itself is not sin. The sin lies in yielding to temptation. It is important to keep that distinction clearly in mind.

Amen.

Of course it goes without saying that it's also a sin if we deliberately hold on to and entertain our sinful desires. The reason for this is that the act is a result of finding pleasure in entertaining the sinful thought and trying to vizualize it in our imaginations in some way.

Think, for instance, what pain and suffering Eve would have avoided if she had immediately dismissed the sinful desire to find out more about the very thing God commanded her to leave alone. That's why it is very dangerous even to entertain or consider the mere suggestion of sin or of something we know to be wrong. Lucifer, as one of the most highly intelligent creatures God ever made, is a master human pyschologist. If Freud and Jung became such experts in human pyschology in a short lifetime, think what Lucifer has learned about human beings ever since he first started observing them, over literally billions of lifetimes. His technique would make Freud and Jung look like fools. So all he wants (at first) is for us merely to grasp the sin-- for then he knows that when we do this, the hardest part of his battle for our mind is already practically won.

When the mind considers a sin as a possibility or as something to be desired and coveted, it is as if a door opens and the idea of sin gets a stranglehold on the avenues of the mind. At that point, it is not necessary for the person to say Yes to the sin in order for the person to pass the point of no return. Merely to keep the possibility of committing the sin in the back of one's mind, holding on to it, is virtually a guarantee-- apart from God's intervention by our permission-- that sooner or later the person will commit the act. We need to get rid of it by God's grace the moment we recognize it for what it is. Replace the thought with the power of the Word of God. That is what Christ did.

We have to make a conscious choice over and over again every day, sometimes every minute, to submit our minds to God's will. When we do this, God will bless our faithfulness to Him and won't disappoint us. I have often found real encouragement when I feel tempted by remembering Ellen White's statement that God would sooner empty all heaven of holy angels before He would ever allow Satan to overcome one of God's servants if that person is sincerely seeking for God's help to resist temptation.

[Woody]

Just don't forget ... as far as the law is concerned ... Each of us is guilty of being a murderer , a sex offender, an adulterer, and of practicing gay sex. If you are guilty of one sin ... you are guilty of all sin.

What this means is that we ALL are EQUAL in the sight of God. WE ALL need HIS life in place of our life. We need HIS sacrifice and Robe of Righteousness.

When we put it in light of this ... we will all be humbled and judge a whole lot less. For we are ALL sinners in need of a Savour.

[D. Allan]

It is a problem only for John17 and others in the same boat to be concerned with. For the rest of us who are "straight" why are we so against gay sexuality? We are not able to decide what is right for someone else.

Maybe, just maybe, some who claim to be straight, have these temptations too... hmmmmm? Would that explain, and would that justify their saying that gays are not allowed to be fully themselves? Are any "straights" willing to 'fess up?

Of course, some may think my liberal stance could put my own 'straightness' in question!

[Gerr]

It is a problem only for John17 and others in the same boat to be concerned with. For the rest of us who are "straight" why are we so against gay sexuality? We are not able to decide what is right for someone else.

Maybe, just maybe, some who claim to be straight, have these temptations too... hmmmmm? Would that explain, and would that justify their saying that gays are not allowed to be fully themselves? Are any "straights" willing to 'fess up?

Of course, some may think my liberal stance could put my own 'straightness' in question!

Would you be willing to allow the transvestites, the pedophiles, those that practice bestiality to express their full sexuality?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

transvestites, the pedophiles, those that practice bestiality

According to the Law.... I am guilty of all the above.If you commit one sin you are guilty of all. So ... I am no better than those who continue to practice these sins. My sins are no cleaner. We are all guilty of sin. God died for those sins just as much as He died for my sins.

He points to all of us to put away our sins. But NONE do. We all fall short. That is why we need the life of Christ to stand in our place ... in the place of our sinful life.

I will say right here and now that I am NO better than those who continue to practice as transvestites, pedophiles, and those that practice bestiality. I AM NO BETTER. So ... we should love all equally.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

[D. Allan]

Gerry, you can't class gay's with pedophiles!

[Woody]

D. Allan. I will classify myself with ALL of them. If you commit one sin you are guilty of all. We really don't need to classify any sin. For ... all sin is seperation from GOD.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

I will say right here and now that I am NO better than those who continue to practice as transvestites, pedophiles, and those that practice bestiality. I AM NO BETTER. So ... we should love all equally.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

You are so right, Redwood.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Yes, I agree that the desire to have sex with a member of one's own gender is a sin. In fact, I said as much, several times, on my post, thus:

I have not read all of this thread so I didn't see what you have written. What I was saying is the same thing as you have already posted; only what I saw was that Paul points this out in Romans and that fact is not highlighted by most people. Most people don't point out that Paul talks against the desire, they generally point that he speaks against the behavior.

Good posts John317

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Just don't forget ... as far as the law is concerned ... Each of us is guilty of being a murderer , a sex offender, an adulterer, and of practicing gay sex. If you are guilty of one sin ... you are guilty of all sin.

What this means is that we ALL are EQUAL in the sight of God. WE ALL need HIS life in place of our life. We need HIS sacrifice and Robe of Righteousness.

When we put it in light of this ... we will all be humbled and judge a whole lot less. For we are ALL sinners in need of a Savour.

Part of that is correct and part is not. God loves all people that we know because of Christ's death for all. All have sinned and we know that is a fact. All have sinned in one way or another. But not all sin is the same. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 1Jo 5:16b-17 Here John tells us that there are more than one kinds of sin; One unto death and one not unto death.

The difference is not that one is worse than the other, but that one is willful and persistent. In other words the person is not repentant and continuing in the sin. That is a sin unto death. Then we have the sin that happens, some by our choice and some by ignorance.

And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: Lev 4:1,2.....

And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation. Lev 4:13,14

There you have sins that are not willful and done in ignorance. Those who commit a sin through ignorance are not categorized as murderers, whoremongers or effeminate. (That is probably why there was such fear on the Day of Atonement: because people did not know if they had sins of ignorance unconfused. This is just my theory on that, but it makes sense to me.)

Certain sins had no provisions for sacrifices because they were told specifically not to do such and as such no forgiveness was offered and they were stoned to death. Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

You must remember why these were so offensive to God that they required death and no forgiveness. It is because Israel was a witness for God and were to introduce the Messiah to the world. They were to be a special people. God knew they would sin in ignorance and made provision, but those who committed certain sins had to cross a certain barrier in the minds and accept that this thinking was ok when it was absolutely not ok. When these sins are committed they are, the first time when they are committed, willfully committed against God. No provision was made for that.

So while all sin is transgression and sin is sin, there are different degrees of sin that exist today that have been revealed in the OT. Scripture is clear on this if we study and believe what it says.

Norman

[Woody]

Yeah ... the only sin that is sin ... is the one not repented of.

[Amelia]

Quote:

So while all sin is transgression and sin is sin, there are different degrees of sin that exist today that have been revealed in the OT. Scripture is clear on this if we study and believe what it says.

So if sin is sin. And if we commit one sin we've commited all sin. How can there be degrees of sin?

[Woody]

I won't try to answer for Norman ... but there are some sins that take us further away from God and faster than others. But the legal consequences are the same of any unrepented sin. The good news is that Christ died for any and all sins no matter what "degree" they are.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

The good news is that Christ died for any and all sins no matter what "degree" they are.

That is correct and I pointed that out, but you must have overlooked this one.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

[Woody]

That is right Norman. Christ only died for those who accept Him. Those that reject Him are not forced to go to Heaven.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

you can't class gay's with pedophiles!

When I was in college, I ran a reach-out ministry to gays for three years. I had the honor of working with some Exodus International ministries.

Gays are not classed with pedophiles because unless they also have sex with adults of their same sex, they are not considered pedophiles. That means a man that is married to a woman and never has sex with other adult men but sexually molests little boys is not considered gay. So it is a manner of semantics.

I believe the number of gay men that have sex with other adult gay men and molest little boys is actually a small percentage of the gay population, as defined above. However the percentage of little boys that are sexual victims that are molested by an older member of the same sex is quite high. So again, it is an issue of semantics.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

That is right Norman. Christ only died for those who accept Him. Those that reject Him are not forced to go to Heaven.

Christ died for all sin except one, and those who reject that sacrifice get their just reward. This does change the fact that there are sins unto death and sins not unto death.

[John317]

D. Allan. I will classify myself with ALL of them. If you commit one sin you are guilty of all. We really don't need to classify any sin. For ... all sin is seperation from GOD.

Redwood, where does the Bible say all sin is separation from God?

The Bible says sin results in separation from God, not that sin itself is separation from God. Adam and Eve first sinned or disobeyed God's commandment, and that sin had the consequence of separating all humans from God. And elsewhere it clearly says, "Your sins have separated you from God." So our sins, unconfessed and unrepented of, do result in separation from God. This is one of the main lessons God was trying to teach the people by the Old Covenant sanctuary service. The common refrain in Leviticus is, "You shall be holy because I am holy." And the Psalms says, "Who will ascend the hill and dwell with God? He who has clean hands and is holy." The books of Hebrews and Revelation continue this important theme.

Also, it is terribly significant that sin did not forever mean separation for Enoch. Enoch was so close to God during his life on this earth that God finally ask him to join Him in heaven. Why? We would do well to study this. Ellen White says there are many Enochs alive on earth today. It is simply not true that God views all sin in the same way. Noah was said by God to be a righteous man, which is why God chose to save him and his family. Also, it is not true that no matter what we do in union with Christ, we are all equally evil. God has the power to change us but of course it is Satan who wants us to forget this great fact or to think that Christ's work in our lives makes no difference. The Bible calls Christians "saints," not "sinners." Let's put the emphasis where the Bible puts it, wouldn't you agree?