Gays can't change

[John317]

I won't try to answer for Norman ... but there are some sins that take us further away from God and faster than others. But the legal consequences are the same of any unrepented sin. The good news is that Christ died for any and all sins no matter what "degree" they are.

Please explain how that applies to Enoch and Elijah, two men who, though sinners, were invited by God to come live with Him even before the sacrifice of Christ had been made for them?

You are right that insofar as proving our guilt before God, the Bible says all of us are equally guilty and in need of a Savior, yet it is obviously not true that the Bible portrays everyone as equally evil and culpable. It is Satan who claims that all are equally deserving of damnation and therefore that none can be justly saved. That is the emphasis of Satan, not Christ or the Bible. What is Jesus' reply? Jesus tells Satan that, yes, the saints did sin, but He also reminds them of their faith in Him and of their changed lives through His power. Satan is forced to shut up and stand down. Christ easily wins the case. Satan can't possibly win under these circumstances.

But on the other hand what if Christ can't point to their changed lives? What if Satan points out the fact that their lives betrayed their claim to faith in Christ? What if Job had done what his wife had advised him to do, curse God and die? What if Abraham had refused to sacrifice Isaac? What if we refuse to obey God's commandments or to use the power God has made available for us to overcome our sins? What then?

[Gerr]

Gerry, you can't class gay's with pedophiles!

Says who? And why not? Are they not all perversions?

Is a 25 yo capable of falling in love? A 20 yo? A 15 yo? A 13 yo?

Gerry

[Gerr]

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I will say right here and now that I am NO better than those who continue to practice as transvestites, pedophiles, and those that practice bestiality. I AM NO BETTER. So ... we should love all equally.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

Anyone who takes/puts on the name of Christ but is no better than a pedophile, a drunkard, or a murderer, is just playing religion, "having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!" 2 Tim 3:5 NKJ

Until the world sees the Gospel as having power to transform believers to be different from the world, they will not be convinced that it makes a difference whether to believe or not believe.

Gerry

[Gerr]

D. Allan. I will classify myself with ALL of them. If you commit one sin you are guilty of all. We really don't need to classify any sin. For ... all sin is seperation from GOD.

"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 Jn 5:17 NIV

Gerry

[Gerr]

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I will say right here and now that I am NO better than those who continue to practice as transvestites, pedophiles, and those that practice bestiality. I AM NO BETTER. So ... we should love all equally.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

You are so right, Redwood.

If there is no difference, where then will you be when He separates the sheep from the goats?

Gerry

[olger]

If we find that the spirit we are led by does not harmonize with the whole tenor of God's law, then let us walk carefully.

olger

[lazarus]

Trangendered 7 year old?

You may see a commercial before news item

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/28/zahn.living.life.as.girl.cnn

Whatch the other video too,,, "gay to Straight"

[Woody]

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yet it is obviously not true that the Bible portrays everyone as equally evil and culpable.

John317 ... I was speaking in light of the fact that we are either for Christ or against Christ. Our sins seperate us from Him. But He died for those sins and if we accept Him ... all sins no matter how severe we may view them ... they are all forgiven if we repent.

So ... as far as justification goes ... all sins are forgiven equally. And if you have any sin unforgiven ... it will keep you from Heaven. It simply does not matter what sin it is ... ONE sin will keep you from Heaven.

The good news is ... Christ will take ALL sins and forgive them ... NO matter HOW we may classify them.

[Woody]

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What if Satan points out the fact that their lives betrayed their claim to faith in Christ?

This is a very good question John317. This points to the good news. WE ALL fall short. We all betray the claim to faith in Christ. That is why we have HIS Robe of Righteousness and the Father beholds NOT our faulty characters and good works.

The point is WE do NOT deserve Salvation. Our lives do NOT reflect Christ as they should. But praise God ... He accepts us anyway.

This is the good news. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... we will be changed. And we will no longer be corrupt individuals like we are here on earth.

[Woody]

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If there is no difference, where then will you be when He separates the sheep from the goats?

We are all sinners. But we are accounted as righteous if we accept Christ. We will be divided by those who accept Jesus and those who don't. If we were to be seperated by those who have lived a perfect life and those who didn't ... it would mean that Heaven would be a lonely place.

[Woody]

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"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

Praise God that all sin that is taken to Christ does not lead to death. We who are IN Christ have our sins forgiven and thus these sins to not lead to death.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Please explain how that applies to Enoch and Elijah, two men who, though sinners, were invited by God to come live with Him even before the sacrifice of Christ had been made for them?

You are right that insofar as proving our guilt before God, the Bible says all of us are equally guilty and in need of a Savior, yet it is obviously not true that the Bible portrays everyone as equally evil and culpable. It is Satan who claims that all are equally deserving of damnation and therefore that none can be justly saved. That is the emphasis of Satan, not Christ or the Bible. What is Jesus' reply? Jesus tells Satan that, yes, the saints did sin, but He also reminds them of their faith in Him and of their changed lives through His power. Satan is forced to shut up and stand down. Christ easily wins the case. Satan can't possibly win under these circumstances.

But on the other hand what if Christ can't point to their changed lives? What if Satan points out the fact that their lives betrayed their claim to faith in Christ? What if Job had done what his wife had advised him to do, curse God and die? What if Abraham had refused to sacrifice Isaac? What if we refuse to obey God's commandments or to use the power God has made available for us to overcome our sins? What then?

Amen!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: D. Allan

Gerry, you can't class gay's with pedophiles!

Says who? And why not? Are they not all perversions?

Is a 25 yo capable of falling in love? A 20 yo? A 15 yo? A 13 yo?

Thank you Gerry for the courage to speak the truth.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Trangendered 7 year old?

That is so heart breaking. The child has a dream and then the parents follow through with this?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

We are all sinners. But we are accounted as righteous if we accept Christ. We will be divided by those who accept Jesus and those who don't. If we were to be seperated by those who have lived a perfect life and those who didn't ... it would mean that Heaven would be a lonely place

I agree with this statement as no one has lived a perfect life except Christ. But we are called to be all that we can learning and overcoming in the victorious power of the Lord. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[John317]

Quote:

What if Satan points out the fact that their lives betrayed their claim to faith in Christ?

This is a very good question John317. This points to the good news. WE ALL fall short. We all betray the claim to faith in Christ. That is why we have HIS Robe of Righteousness and the Father beholds NOT our faulty characters and good works.

The point is WE do NOT deserve Salvation. Our lives do NOT reflect Christ as they should. But praise God ... He accepts us anyway.

This is the good news. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... we will be changed. And we will no longer be corrupt individuals like we are here on earth.

But according to what you have said here, it would appear that it won't matter if Satan is right that a person's life betrays their claim to faith in Christ. Is that your answer to my question?

[John317]

Quote:

We are all sinners. But we are accounted as righteous if we accept Christ. We will be divided by those who accept Jesus and those who don't. If we were to be seperated by those who have lived a perfect life and those who didn't ... it would mean that Heaven would be a lonely place

I agree with this statement as no one has lived a perfect life except Christ. But we are called to be all that we can learning and overcoming in the victorious power of the Lord. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Exactly. We have to be careful or we can forget what it means to be a disciple of Christ. Does it mean to live a life dedicated to Him or does it mean living in a way that is not necessarily much different from the way we were living before Christ came into our lives?

Antinomians teach that our lives don't have anything to do with our salvation. That is a false and dangerous belief. The only way we could believe this is if we don't believe the whole Bible or if we believe that Ellen White spoke out of both sides of her mouth.

[Gerr]

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If there is no difference, where then will you be when He separates the sheep from the goats?

We are all sinners. But we are accounted as righteous if we accept Christ. We will be divided by those who accept Jesus and those who don't. If we were to be seperated by those who have lived a perfect life and those who didn't ... it would mean that Heaven would be a lonely place.

And if God lets all people in who merely professed to accept Christ but continued to live no differently than the unbeliever, heaven would be just as full of filth and heartache as we have now.

[color:red]"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is heaven." Mt 7:21 NIV

God is not looking necessarily for perfect behavior; He knows that is not possible in an imperfect body. He is, however, perfect loyalty, perfect commitment, perfect trust. THAT is possible here & now.

Gerry

[Stan]

This comment is not pro nor any gay.

Here is the comment.

It is my experience, that those who have never had a life changing experience, can not fathom anyone else having one...

By/through the Strength and Grace of Christ, Here I Stand.

[Woody]

Thank you Stan. This is so true. But even those who can not fathom this power have been deceived about the power of God because of those who promote perfectionism. It seems so overwhelming to them because of the misperceptions that have been presented ... that they just give up. Sad but true. The good news IS that we can have the fruit of God in our lives as Ellen White states ... some thirty some sixty and some an hundred. Praise God.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: D. Allan

Gerry, you can't class gay's with pedophiles!

Says who? And why not? Are they not all perversions?

Is a 25 yo capable of falling in love? A 20 yo? A 15 yo? A 13 yo?

Thank you Gerry for the courage to speak the truth.

You cannot class gays with pedophiles because heteros are sometimes pedophiles; it is a perversion of logic to do so. There is also the matter of the 'age of consent' ignored by pedophiles.

The important thing in any intimacy is genuine love of the other in an "I-Thou" relationship as Martin Buber puts it, where the other person is not merely an object for the satifaction of ones desires of whatever ilk they may be. Even in a hertero- relationship the "I-It" relationship is a perversion, a low mean disgusting selfish perversion which happens all too often, I suspect.

[D. Allan]

It has been my experience that those who have had a life-changing experience are slow to condemn. They are more likely to be hard on themselves and easy on others. They are likely to stand up and defend those who are being condemned, even at risk of their own reputation. To them, people, individuals, are more important than any other consideration.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: D. Allan

Gerry, you can't class gay's with pedophiles!

Says who? And why not? Are they not all perversions?

Is a 25 yo capable of falling in love? A 20 yo? A 15 yo? A 13 yo?

Thank you Gerry for the courage to speak the truth.

You cannot class gays with pedophiles because heteros are sometimes pedophiles;

If there are heteros who are sometimes pedophiles, does that make homosexuality normal? Is it not that the heteros who turn to pedophilia turned himself into "uncleanness?"

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it is a perversion of logic to do so. There is also the matter of the 'age of consent' ignored by pedophiles.

[color:blue]And by what logic do you call homosexuality anything but a perversion?

Quote:

The important thing in any intimacy is genuine love of the other in an "I-Thou" relationship as Martin Buber puts it, where the other person is not merely an object for the satifaction of ones desires of whatever ilk they may be. Even in a hertero- relationship the "I-It" relationship is a perversion, a low mean disgusting selfish perversion which happens all too often, I suspect.

Since when is the genuineness of a love intimacy the litmus test whether a relationship is a perversion or not? If a married executive falls for his secretary who may herself even be married, who are you to say it is not a genuine love relationship? If such a relationship meets Buber's criterion, would that make it right then?

Gerry

[Gerr]

It has been my experience that those who have had a life-changing experience are slow to condemn. They are more likely to be hard on themselves and easy on others. They are likely to stand up and defend those who are being condemned, even at risk of their own reputation. To them, people, individuals, are more important than any other consideration.

I condemn no one, and don't need to condemn anyone, because the one who does not believe the Good News of liberation in Jesus Christ, is condemned already.

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

You cannot class gays with pedophiles because heteros are sometimes pedophiles; it is a perversion of logic to do so. There is also the matter of the 'age of consent' ignored by pedophiles.

Hi D,

This whole sexual orientation thing is garbage, it's a deception of Satan to keep people trapped. Read this, it is not pro or con it is fact. I just happened to see the lies of Satan in there one day.

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Karl-Maria Kertbeny or Károly Mária Kertbeny (born Karl-Maria Benkert) (1824 – 1882) was born in Vienna, the son of a writer and a painter. He was an Austrian-born Hungarian journalist, memoirist and human rights campaigner who coined the word homosexual.

As a young man, while working as a bookseller's apprentice, Benkert had a close friend who was homosexual. This young man killed himself after being blackmailed by an extortionist. Benkert later recalled that it was this tragic episode which led him to take a close interest in the subject of homosexuality, following what he called his "instinctive drive to take issue with every injustice."

After a stint in the Hungarian army, Benkert made a living as a journalist and travel writer, and wrote at least twenty-five books on various subjects, none of them of any lasting value. In 1847, he legally changed his name from Benkert to Karl-Maria Kertbeny (or Károly Mária Kertbeny), a Hungarian name with aristocratic associations. He settled in Berlin in 1868, still unmarried at 44. He claimed in his writings to be "normally sexed," and there is no direct evidence to contradict this, despite the scepticism of subsequent writers.

Nevertheless, from this time he began to write extensively on the issue of homosexuality, motivated, he said, by an "anthropological interest" combined with a sense of justice and a concern for the "rights of man." In 1869, he anonymously published a pamphlet entitled Paragraph 143 of the Prussian Penal Code of 14 April 1851 and Its Reaffirmation as Paragraph 152 in the Proposed Penal Code for the Nordeutscher Bund. An Open and Professional Correspondence to His Excellency Dr. Leonhardt, Royal Prussian Minister of Justice.

A second pamphlet on the same subject soon followed. In his pamphlets, Kertbeny argued that the Prussian sodomy law, Paragraph 143 (which later became Paragraph 175 of the legal code of the German Empire), violated the "rights of man." He advanced the classic libertarian argument that private consensual sexual acts should not be subject of the criminal law. Recalling his young friend, he argued strongly that the Prussian law allowed blackmailers to extort money from homosexuals and often drove them to suicide.

Kertbeny also put forward the view that homosexuality was inborn and unchangeable, an argument which would later be called the "medical model" of homosexuality. This contradicted the dominant view up until that time, that men committed "sodomy" out of mere wickedness. Homosexual men, he said, were not by nature effeminate, and he pointed out that many of the great heroes of history were homosexual. He was the first writer to put these now-familiar arguments before the public.

During 1869, in the course of these writings, Kertbeny coined the word "homosexual" as part of his system for the classification of sexual types, as a replacement for the pejorative term 'pederast' that was used in the German and French speaking world of his time. He called men who are attracted to women, heterosexual, he called masturbators monosexualists, and called devotees of anal intercourse, pygists.

Once self-identified homosexual men, such as Karl-Heinrich Ulrichs, began to campaign for homosexual rights, Kertbeny faded from the scene. If he was homosexual, he was never prepared to say so. In 1880, he contributed a chapter on homosexuality to Gustav Jäger's book Discovery of the Soul, but Jäger's publisher decided it was too controversial and omitted it. Nevertheless, Jäger used Kertbeny's terminology elsewhere in the book.

The German sex researcher Richard von Krafft-Ebing, in his Psychopathia Sexualis (1886) borrowed the terms homosexual and heterosexual from Jäger's book. Krafft-Ebing's work was so influential that these became the standard terms for differences in sexual orientation, superseding Ulrichs' word Urning.

Kertbeny did not live to see this wide acceptance of his ideas. He died in Budapest in 1882 at age 58.

So this guy decides to make up some catagories because he feels that his friend was mistreated. Sure he was, but to just make this stuff up to try and normalize this? I have read more about this man and found that after he came up with the names for the catagories that he made up, he actually wondered what to call regualar folks and he came up with the name heterosexual.