Gays can't change

[Woody]

Hi. I just wanted to send a Happy Sabbath out there to all of you ... even to you gays. God loves all of us. He is good. When it comes time to welcome us to His Kingdom ... He asks us WHO do you KNOW. He doesn't ask us ... what is your sexual orientation?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

More info,

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation Read that and see if you don't come up with some doubtful thoughts about this whole sexual orientation thing.

Quote:

Sexual orientation refers to the direction of an individual's sexuality, usually conceived of as classifiable according to the sex or gender of the persons that the individual finds sexually attractive.

quoted from the above link.

Does that sound like something one is born with or what they choose?

For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Mat 19:12

Bottom line is that when people are born this way Satan will do his best to give them a dream, or desires or to help them think that they must be with the same sex instead of alone.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Happy Sabbath Redwood

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

It is my experience, that those who have never had a life changing experience, can not fathom anyone else having one...

Actually, that really shines light on why so many that have not experienced the transformation that Christ brings, do not believe that He would be able to change a gay person.

However leaving the gay lifestyle is a huge struggle, as John317 has testified. Overeaters also struggle to control their weight and appetite and that is a struggle they often struggle with their entire lives. Alcoholics struggle with staying sober and dealing with life without drinking. That is a struggle many deal with their entire lives (I still attend AA after 21 years of sobriety). Turning from our sins is not easy and is a struggle for most of us. Yet Christ has the power to transform each and every one of us.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

It is my experience, that those who have never had a life changing experience, can not fathom anyone else having one...

This is true Stan and I have seen it before my eyes. There are many who have had and who are having life changing experiences. Of those who have had and are having them there is one common precursor to having this life changing experiences.

It's a broken heart that is at the end of it's wits with self justification and self righteousness; there's also a realization of the righteousness, mercy and goodness of God and a desire for God to do something miraculous that they have wanted for a long time.

I have been there and remember how I wept in the realization that the message to the Laodicean was meant for me! I wept bitterly at my condition and prayed, no, begged God to help me and change me. When I got up off my knees I knew that He would answer this prayer. A joy that I had not known came over me and I rejoiced in the Lord.

The results of this experience was that I wanted others to understand and know the love of God. I also did what I could to help others experience this but found out that this is a personal experience that can be witnessed but not given; it must come from God by the cooperation of the utterly broken sinner.

From that platform I share that I do and I know what God can do so when I read or hear otherwise I am moved to speak and counter that which is opposite of what I have experienced. What I had was real and God was in my life, like the true friend that He is.

When we read that we are powerless to do certain things, there is truth to that, but we must not or ever think that living a godly life in harmony with God's laws is impossible. God is the One that makes this real and until one experiences this they will never understand those who have been through this and are going through this. They will never understand the voice of victory because they have never fully given themselves in utter desperation and chosen to believe so that God can bless them with victory

[John317]

He sure does, and it's for everyone, but the ironic thing is that often the only people who know this best-- like Jesus said-- are those who realize the terrible, almost bottomless depths from which Jesus rescued them.

[John317]

Quote:

You cannot class gays with pedophiles because heteros are sometimes pedophiles; it is a perversion of logic to do so. There is also the matter of the 'age of consent' ignored by pedophiles.

Hi D,

This whole sexual orientation thing is garbage, it's a deception of Satan to keep people trapped. Read this, it is not pro or con it is fact. I just happened to see the lies of Satan in there one day.

I don't agree with you on this, that is, regarding pedophiles and gays being considered on the same level and in the same way. Pedophiles take advantage of children and commit rape against them. They commit terrible crimes and do things that virtually all civilized societies hate and have laws against. That by itself puts them in a different catagory. Most pedophiles desire female children and most "gays" dislike pedophiles just as much as straights do. In fact, they dislike them more because pedophiles give a bad reputation to gays in the minds of a lot of people.

You may beleive that gays also commit crimes against God--and indeed they do-- but there has to be a distinction made between societal laws and God's laws. It would not be right or proper-- in fact God would not want us-- to make laws that punish people because of religious/spiritual differences. Besides, when we say we think of gays as the same as pedophiles, we are saying it is OK to treat them in the same way, are we not? How do we treat pedophiles? We punish them, locking them up in jail or prison and they lose their rights. Society makes them reap the consequences of their misbehavior. Are we saying then that it is OK to do the same kinds of things to gays? And how does that attitude affect the church's feelings and attudes towards the gay person? How does it affect our children's attitude towards people in the church who may be "gay" but who are allowing God to change them?

Anyhow, just a few thoughts.

Important note: I assume you realize I am not saying it is not sin to have gay sex or even to have desires for gay sex.

Quote:

Karl-Maria Kertbeny or Károly Mária Kertbeny (born Karl-Maria Benkert) (1824 ? 1882) was born in Vienna, the son of a writer and a painter. He was an Austrian-born Hungarian journalist, memoirist and human rights campaigner who coined the word homosexual..."

...So this guy decides to make up some catagories because he feels that his friend was mistreated. Sure he was, but to just make this stuff up to try and normalize this? I have read more about this man and found that after he came up with the names for the catagories that he made up, he actually wondered what to call regualar folks and he came up with the name heterosexual.

Could you please give me the source or reference for your quote about Karl-Maria Kertbeny or Károly Mária Kertbeny? Thanks.

[olger]

Thanks for the testimony, Norman. I enjoy hearing of God's goodness towards us. I had a similar experience in january of `03.

Why thank you Redwood. Happy sabbath to you.

I also appreciate this statement, Norman. I agree with it.

Quote:

This whole sexual orientation thing is garbage, it's a deception of Satan to keep people trapped.

Paul told us these things were coming. Let us not be surprised, but confident in God's wisdom.

the other Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

I don't agree with you on this, because pedophiles take advantage of children. They commit crimes and do things that virtually all civilized societies hate and have laws against. That by itself puts them in a different catagory. Most pedophiles desire female children and most "gays" dislike pedophiles just as much as straights do. In fact, they dislike them more because pedophiles give a bad reputation to gays in the minds of a lot of people.

Homosexuality, like pedophilia, or any other sin for that matter, are ALL perversions, aberrancies when measured according to the straight word of God.

Gerry

[olger]

amen

[John317]

Quote:

I don't agree with you on this, because pedophiles take advantage of children. They commit crimes and do things that virtually all civilized societies hate and have laws against. That by itself puts them in a different catagory. Most pedophiles desire female children and most "gays" dislike pedophiles just as much as straights do. In fact, they dislike them more because pedophiles give a bad reputation to gays in the minds of a lot of people.

Homosexuality, like pedophilia, or any other sin for that matter, are ALL perversions, aberrancies when measured according to the straight word of God.

Gerry

I am not disageeing with you on that. The problem is that when people don't understand it properly, it leads to showing disrespect for others and often even leads to murder. You have to realize there are people out there who are not led by God's Spirit who hear things that causes them to feel that it is OK to kill gays because they think "God hates gays." I am confident you would not want this to happen.

Take an example. Suppose I go to church and sit down next to you. Suppose you suspect I may be a "gay" type whatever that is. Are you going to disrespect me or treat me differently or maybe less lovingly as a Christian because of your attitude towards "gays"? That is a very important issue: how are "gays" -- I mean those who are trying to let God heal and change them, just like heterosexuals are trying to let God change them in other ways-- how are "gays" going to be treated in your church and in your community if you beleive God doesn't love them or want you to love them?

[olger]

Murder is a perversion of life, then. Perhaps that brings balance to the discussion.

olger

[John317]

Murder is a perversion of life, then. Perhaps that brings balance to the discussion.

olger

Yes, there are degrees of murder. But we all know that there is a big big difference between knifing or gunning a person down for going against our personal religious views, no matter how right we know them to be. We can't go around and make people obey our personal religious convictions. We may not like it but people have a right to make mistakes and to sin. That is as God would have it. We don't have right to compel others to do the right thing unless the society decides it is in the best interest of public welfare to pass laws that do compel certain behavoirs, such as obeying traffic laws, not stealing, not raping, etc. But beyond that, people have to be allowed to decide for themselves to do God's will in matters like homosexuality. The idea is persuasion, not compelling people's consciences. We talk to people if we don't like what they are doing; we don't shoot them, stab them, or call them names. That is no way to get them to change. The best way is to love them into changing. Tell them the truth, yes, but do it in a loving way. That is what got through to me. It will with others, too.

So, then, let me ask right upfront-- if I or Parade Orange attend your church and you suspect or know that we are "gay" or whatever, how are you going to treat us? Are we going to be made to feel welcome just like anyone else? What if you see me preaching? Are you going to think I have no right to do that because of things that happened in my life before? Where do we stand as individuals and as a church?

[John317]

Hope this doesn't mean what I think it may. I mean the lack of reponse. Hope no one has visited this thead in about half an hour.

[Amelia]

Quote:

So, then, let me ask right upfront-- if I or Parade Orange attend your church and you suspect or know that we are "gay" or whatever, how are you going to treat us? Are we going to be made to feel welcome just like anyone else? What if you see me preaching? Are you going to think I have no right to do that because of things that happened in my life before? Where do we stand as individuals and as a church?

Doesn't matter to me. All are welcome to God's house. I would greet you the way I greet everyone. A smile. A handshake. Or if I know you really well, a hug. And if you come the third Sabbath of the month, an invitation to stay for potluck.

[Woody]

Very Good Amelia. Many gays think they should have "special" treatment. But in my book we are ALL sinners. I treat them no differently than anyone else.

[phkrause]

I second that.

pkrause

[Toni]

So, then, let me ask right upfront-- if I or Parade Orange attend your church and you suspect or know that we are "gay" or whatever, how are you going to treat us? Are we going to be made to feel welcome just like anyone else? What if you see me preaching? Are you going to think I have no right to do that because of things that happened in my life before? Where do we stand as individuals and as a church?

I think that if I "knew" you were gay, I might even go out of my way to make more of an effort to be friendly, because I would suspect that you probably have been hurt by some in the church before. I'm very shy by nature, so reaching out would be hard for me anyway, but God has place a soft spot in my heart for gay people. I'm not sure why yet, as I don't know for sure anyone in my life who is gay, but I make it a point to be kind to everyone, no matter their walk in life.

[Robert]

"When Jesus comes into the life in the way that He wants to, He replaces all those sinful desires with desires for righteousness and obedience to God."

Are you saying that the sinful desires of human nature are gone?

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Clearly the desires of the flesh are still there in the believer!

17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

The change you speak of is only in "the mind"! The Bible speaks of the mind as the heart. The mind is in harmony with God, but the nature is harmony sin. So there's this struggle. The struggle isn't over salvation. Why? The believer has salvation full and complete through the message of justification by faith alone.

The struggle occurs because "the old man" entices the converted heart to live according to its desires, but the converted heart desires righteousness.

So then the question is how can one experience victory over the desires of the flesh?

First and foremost the believer must be secure in the fact that "in Christ Jesus" he stands perfect in justice, performance and nature.

The only way to experience victory over temptation is found in Galatians 5:16

But I say, walk by the Spirit, (i.e., give up and let God have the flesh) and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh....24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desire.

[Woody]

Quote:

"When Jesus comes into the life in the way that He wants to, He replaces all those sinful desires with desires for righteousness and obedience to God."

Apparently ... I've never met anyone who has Jesus in their life. Because I know of NO one who has had ALL of their sinful desires replaced with Holy desires.

By their fruits you will know them.

[aldona]

Quote:

I think that if I "knew" you were gay, I might even go out of my way to make more of an effort to be friendly, because I would suspect that you probably have been hurt by some in the church before. I'm very shy by nature, so reaching out would be hard for me anyway, but God has place a soft spot in my heart for gay people. I'm not sure why yet, as I don't know for sure anyone in my life who is gay, but I make it a point to be kind to everyone, no matter their walk in life.

Thank you for sharing that, Toni...that is how I have felt for a while now, and I'm a shy person too. Having a soft spot for gay people doesn't make one very popular in any kind of conservative Christian circles, unfortunately.

aldona

[Gerr]

Quote:

I am not disageeing with you on that. The problem is that when people don't understand it properly, it leads to showing disrespect for others and often even leads to murder. You have to realize there are people out there who are not led by God's Spirit who hear things that causes them to feel that it is OK to kill gays because they think "God hates gays." I am confident you would not want this to happen.

Take an example. Suppose I go to church and sit down next to you. Suppose you suspect I may be a "gay" type whatever that is. Are you going to disrespect me or treat me differently or maybe less lovingly as a Christian because of your attitude towards "gays"? That is a very important issue: how are "gays" -- I mean those who are trying to let God heal and change them, just like heterosexuals are trying to let God change them in other ways-- how are "gays" going to be treated in your church and in your community if you beleive God doesn't love them or want you to love them?

Homosexuality does not even make the list of the 7 abominations in Prov 6:16-19, or the other abominations mentioned in the same book. So then, how do I regard if I knew someone sitting next to me is a homosexual? Should I treat such a person any differently than I would any other sinner? The benchmark for how I treat people is how God treats a sinner like me or how He treats other sinners. I have seen the dregs of humanity in my line of work, and the only way I could maintain an attitude of respect & dignity is to remember that they are God's children in need of redemption, that but for the grace of God, there go I.

Furthermore, what better place for a sinner to be in than a church?! But if they come to my church not to worship but to push their agenda, I would be one of the first to ask them to leave.

Gerry

[John317]

Quote:

I am not disageeing with you on that. The problem is that when people don't understand it properly, it leads to showing disrespect for others and often even leads to murder. You have to realize there are people out there who are not led by God's Spirit who hear things that causes them to feel that it is OK to kill gays because they think "God hates gays." I am confident you would not want this to happen.

Take an example. Suppose I go to church and sit down next to you. Suppose you suspect I may be a "gay" type whatever that is. Are you going to disrespect me or treat me differently or maybe less lovingly as a Christian because of your attitude towards "gays"? That is a very important issue: how are "gays" -- I mean those who are trying to let God heal and change them, just like heterosexuals are trying to let God change them in other ways-- how are "gays" going to be treated in your church and in your community if you beleive God doesn't love them or want you to love them?

Homosexuality does not even make the list of the 7 abominations in Prov 6:16-19, or the other abominations mentioned in the same book. So then, how do I regard if I knew someone sitting next to me is a homosexual? Should I treat such a person any differently than I would any other sinner? The benchmark for how I treat people is how God treats a sinner like me or how He treats other sinners. I have seen the dregs of humanity in my line of work, and the only way I could maintain an attitude of respect & dignity is to remember that they are God's children in need of redemption, that but for the grace of God, there go I.

Furthermore, what better place for a sinner to be in than a church?! But if they come to my church not to worship but to push their agenda, I would be one of the first to ask them to leave.

Gerry

No, I would be in front of you asking them to leave in that case.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

I don't agree with you on this, that is, regarding pedophiles and gays being considered on the same level and in the same way. Pedophiles take advantage of children and commit rape against them. They commit terrible crimes and do things that virtually all civilized societies hate and have laws against. That by itself puts them in a different catagory. Most pedophiles desire female children and most "gays" dislike pedophiles just as much as straights do. In fact, they dislike them more because pedophiles give a bad reputation to gays in the minds of a lot of people.

If a gay is in the right situation with young boy in front of him, it's just a matter of time before they will give in. Peds are gays out of control. The reason gays hate them is so they can point to someone more peverted than them and there by appear acceptable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Maria_Kertbeny

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

It's also interesting to note that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution was introduced in this same era.

Karl-Maria Benkert (1824 – 1882)

Charles Robert Darwin (1809 – 1882)