Times, they are a changin' More Guidelines Need Here

[Clio]

If someone else want's to, I'll probably participate, but I don't want to own the thread.

I really just meant to respond to jasd.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Hi Clio. I am saying that Satan can only occupy ground that we give to him.

Sometimes parents pass occult stuff onto their children. This ground too can be reclaimed by the Lord Jesus Christ. We can renounce the enemy in Christ's name and ask Him to take back the ground we gave to the enemy.

What do you think?

og

I know I can't answer for Clio, but I wanted to say what I think about this. Honestly, I believe that satan can only occupy the ground that God gives him. Job didn't do anything wrong to cause satanic harassment, I know I didn't do anything that would lend towards demonic experiences... Just as I didn't cause those dreams nor that angel to visit me... God has more power than I have, and I leave it in His hands - I take no responsibility for any of it. Personally, I think we take the Saul/Samuel/witch-of-Endor situation and try to apply it to every situation, and I don't agree with that. Also, I think there must be some gross theological misunderstanding of God's visiting the sins of the parent onto the child. He later says "I only hold you responsible for your own sins" (paraphrase, and I don't remember where it's found - anyone else here remember that and know where it is?) I think the truth is, we directly learn whatever our parents teach us either in practical application or through observing the examples they set (vs. the examples they don't set). I also know a woman who's African parents took her to a witch-doctor and intentionally gave her over to the devil - yet that woman has been set free from all but the psychological damage this did to her: she doesn't have to pay for what her parents did to her to the degree that she used to suffer - God didn't leave her there.

One other thing - your statement about "and ask Him to take back the ground we gave to the enemy." sounds to me like a very harsh, assumptive, unfair, and negatively critical/bashing statement. I just thought you should know how that came off to me. Are you willing to apologize to Clio for that? Also, do you blame yourself every time something bad happens to you, or do you cast the blame, shame, guilt, and sins on the cross instead, knowing that while you aren't perfect, you don't have to be, you can't make up for them with good works or bad things happening to you, and you shouldn't be ridiculed for your past mistakes?

[John317]

... I think there must be some gross theological misunderstanding of God's visiting the sins of the parent onto the child. He later says "I only hold you responsible for your own sins" (paraphrase, and I don't remember where it's found - anyone else here remember that and know where it is?) I think the truth is, we directly learn whatever our parents teach us either in practical application or through observing the examples they set (vs. the examples they don't set). I also know a woman who's African parents took her to a witch-doctor and intentionally gave her over to the devil - yet that woman has been set free from all but the psychological damage this did to her: she doesn't have to pay for what her parents did to her to the degree that she used to suffer - God didn't leave her there...

I know this is getting 'way off the subject of this thread, but since a question has been asked and a subject brought up here, I will respond on this thread, and then if more response is warranted or desired, we can take it to a new thread.

There is a difference between God's allowing evil actions to have evil consequences and good actions to have good consequences, and then God's holding us personally responsible for the evil that our parents do. The first follows the spiritual law of reaping what we sow. If we sow to the spirit, we reap of the spirit and life; if we sow to the flesh, we reap of the flesh and death. That's a law that operates today.

But it's true as you say, that God does not judge us or condemn us because of something our parents have done. For instance, a child may reap the negative consequences of its parents doing drugs or alcohol. But God does not consider that child guilty because of the actions of its mother or father. We are held responsible only for what we actually choose to do or say.

The difference is brought out in the following verses: Exodus 20: 5,6; Ezekiel 18: 2-4, 14-20. Read all of Exekiel 18, a wonderful chapter.

When it comes to the subject you mentioned, that of a child being given by its parents to the devil-- or parents who are devil worshipers-- the child is likely to reap the consequences of its parents actions. Demon possession often "runs in" families. Satan sometimes considers entire families to belong to him if they have given themselves to him over several generations. God allows people to have choices and He allows those choices to have consequences, even when those consequences are destructive. It often requires the prayers of whole congregations to free individuals from Satan once they have put themselves or their children in Satan's possession. In those cases, it is not a simple matter of the individual deciding he wants Christ. It is a real war and Satan does not give up individuals that easily. It can take lots of prayer by other believers over a period of time to free people from Satan. We can come under Satan's power simply by continuously neglecting known duties or by continuously doing things we know are wrong. Satan takes those things as permission for him to rule. People who have been baptized and have made a public acknowledgement of Christ can also be possessed, controlled, and harrassed. Being close to Christ and following His will is our only real protection against Satan. Baptism or being a member of the SDA church or any other church, and even attending church, or even being a pastor, is no magic formula against Satan. The only formula guaranteed to work is belonging 100% to Jesus Christ.

The following link is to an online book that deals with the Biblical aspects of this and shows the real-life experience of those who were freed through prayer and through the power of Christ: http://books.google.com/books?id=o4IjxRY...25x8BhIo0Iylkj8

[Amelia]

Quote:

1. I've already been visited by a black "hollow" (yet slightly visible) demon that was taller than me (I'm 5' 1"), an angel that was at least 6-7 ft tall (no one else saw him, and he also was so transparent that I wondered if I was seeing things), 2 dreams about Yeshua that no conservative Adventist would believe because they both go against common teachings to some degree (yet are both Biblical anyway, IMHO), and I saw a black shadow of a head travel across the lower corner of my bedroom wall once.

COG4E, Any idea why you've had these experiences?

[jasd]

Thanks, Clio...

much appreciated.

I also believe the 'veil' is being ripped, that is, Bab.i.lu (Babylon), or 'Window of Heaven', is opening. If that is so,

it behooves us to become aware of "principalities and dominions" in our time.

Please continue...

QR frame:

Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

v6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deut 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

v10 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Many turn the text upon the phrase “hate me”; thereby, indicating that “ ‘generational’ curses” are visited only upon the non-believer. The phrase, I believe, is contradistinct from “my commandments”, which everyone breaks – or do not keep. Example:

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

>>I think there must be some gross theological misunderstanding of God's visiting the sins of the parent onto the child. He later says "I only hold you responsible for your own sins" (paraphrase, ...<<

It may be that what you’re recalling are the texts below; however, it may also be that they’re prophetic.

Ez 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

v 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

v30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Moreover,

Josh 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.

there seemed to have been (seems to be?) applied in Writ corporate guilt predicated upon individual sin.

Speaking of the occult..., I’ve been told me that we don’t have to give anything to the ‘enemy’ – that enemy often gains entrée to our environs -- by being brought in ‘attached’ to or tandem objects. The most easily recognizable would be that of a Ouija Board or a deck of Tarot cards. That would not be a limited list of objects as -- the enemy may even be attached to such seemingly innocuous objects as books owned or clothes worn by a practicing occultist – or otherwise, evil person. Careful of what you bring home from the Dorcas. (yikes, I’m only kidding!)

[Clio]

Thanks, Clio...

much appreciated.

I also believe the 'veil' is being ripped, that is, Bab.i.lu (Babylon), or 'Window of Heaven', is opening. If that is so,

it behooves us to become aware of "principalities and dominions" in our time.

Please continue...

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Quote:

1. I've already been visited by a black "hollow" (yet slightly visible) demon that was taller than me (I'm 5' 1"), an angel that was at least 6-7 ft tall (no one else saw him, and he also was so transparent that I wondered if I was seeing things), 2 dreams about Yeshua that no conservative Adventist would believe because they both go against common teachings to some degree (yet are both Biblical anyway, IMHO), and I saw a black shadow of a head travel across the lower corner of my bedroom wall once.

COG4E, Any idea why you've had these experiences?

Because God allowed them to happen, so that I would know that the world unseen is a real world indeed. I had suspected before that the spiritual realm was real (both for good and evil) but had never seen proof of it. I carry no responsibility for these things happening - they are of God's allowing, and in the case of the angel I saw and the 2 dreams I had, those were God's doing, not my own, and He had His purposes in those as well.

Everything works to God's Glory, not to man's, and not to satan's either. It's just a universal Law.

[Clio]

precisely.

Always Abba, first and foremost, and if I can serve in any way through what He has allowed me to learn, I will stand in the gap for whomsoever He wills.

Clio

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thanks, Clio...

much appreciated.

I also believe the 'veil' is being ripped, that is, Bab.i.lu (Babylon), or 'Window of Heaven', is opening. If that is so,

it behooves us to become aware of "principalities and dominions" in our time.

Please continue...

QR frame:

Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

v6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deut 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

v10 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Many turn the text upon the phrase “hate me”; thereby, indicating that “ ‘generational’ curses” are visited only upon the non-believer. The phrase, I believe, is contradistinct from “my commandments”, which everyone breaks – or do not keep. Example:

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

>>I think there must be some gross theological misunderstanding of God's visiting the sins of the parent onto the child. He later says "I only hold you responsible for your own sins" (paraphrase, ...<<

It may be that what you’re recalling are the texts below; however, it may also be that they’re prophetic.

Ez 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

v 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

v30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Moreover,

Josh 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.

there seemed to have been (seems to be?) applied in Writ corporate guilt predicated upon individual sin.

Speaking of the occult..., I’ve been told me that we don’t have to give anything to the ‘enemy’ – that enemy often gains entrée to our environs -- by being brought in ‘attached’ to or tandem objects. The most easily recognizable would be that of a Ouija Board or a deck of Tarot cards. That would not be a limited list of objects as -- the enemy may even be attached to such seemingly innocuous objects as books owned or clothes worn by a practicing occultist – or otherwise, evil person. Careful of what you bring home from the Dorcas. (yikes, I’m only kidding!)

Hey, thanks for looking for the texts about generational curses. I do think you were right in that last one, where it says that everyone is responsible for their own mischief (yet Jesus took the blame on the cross, so there is that to remember too).

Regarding objects carrying demonic ties. I know this is a common teaching, and I used to believe it must be true if missionaries were coming back from Africa and saying it was, yet...

I don't believe that God gives demons or satan any more "possession" of concrete objects to use as "permission" to enter the lives of people who've been near them or used them, any more than He allows "possession" of one person by a demon to be a reason for another person who knows them or touches them to become demon possessed themselves. I also don't believe that I can catch a demon from touching or even reading a Harry Potter book any more than I could catch a cold from it. Rather, if I were to agree with any wrong ideas found in it (or even in the Bible, such as that whole "witch of Endor" thing!), then that might give satan something to work with -- yet, why was I agreeing in the first place???

Scare tactics such as what you've had told to you are only that: scare tactics spread by fear-driven fanatics who are ignorant either of the particulars of the situations they're describing, or are ignorant of the correct ways in which to view those situations that they've witnessed themselves. It's easy to, with your eyes shut or blinded, feel the leg of an elephant and think you're hugging a tree. And it's just as easy to walk in on some situation, or even be a part of it, observe it outwardly, and make a lot of assumptions about it based on presupposed biases that you're not fully aware of yourself yet, without further studying it, testing it, and testing your test-parameters, before drawing conclusions about what is fact, what is fear, and what is outright myth.

And I believe that this must be the case in the situation with ouija boards and such. A piece of wood is a piece of wood. Cards are made from paper and ink in a factory. Little children playing with both are still little children - GOD'S CREATIONS - who often don't know better, yet who've told stories of ouija boards doing like the adults who bought them knew they would do if played with... Does that mean that the children playing with a ouija board have given the devil permission to mess with them any more than other children get messed with in their young lives?

What about kids who have cancer who've never messed with a ouija board, never played with any deck of cards, never even swam on Sabbath??? Did they do something "wrong" to deserve that too, that demons are harassing their good health without possessing them directly? What about the kids who die from cancer, or who get shot down in school by demoniacally harassed kids, or who are "cursed" with demonic nightmares, etc? Did they do something to deserve these things, particularly death, if we're going to, of course, presuppose that death itself is a "bad" thing to begin with? (Sometimes life can be much harder and more painful, you know, and yet therein lies the challenge and rewards of exploring existence...)

I'm only pointing out that fair is fair, right is right, wrong is wrong, yet all are to varying degrees, and we have to be able to apply the same assumptive rules to every situation where apples are still being compared to apples. The way I see it is this: we have human bodies, human minds, and Godly-human hearts even before we're aware of Salvation. It's in our minds that we get messed up, with fear-driven and selfish thoughts, not in our hearts which are Made as conduits of Love. We make wrong choices in our minds only when we aren't listening to our hearts. When we don't listen to our hearts, but instead listen only to our minds (our selfishness and fears), we sin in our bodies -- and then reap the natural (automatic, domestic, physical-world) consequences, and nothing more.

Jesus' death removes the possibility of unnatural consequences, such as removal of His Protection over us or His Giving us Good Gifts, from having any connection to any past mistakes, intentional or otherwise, that we've made - whether we even Know He Died in our places or the Value of His doing this, or not.

Believing in His Blood just makes life more manageable for us in this life time and the next, because we can finally accept ourselves and each other as we really are, the choir can say "Amen" and go home, and we can all live in Internal Peace until He Comes back to get us... But Belief does not come before Security! That's the Good News! We're already Forgiven! If that weren't so, then far too many passages of the Bible for me to list here ought to be blotted out with giant black markers! So, my point being, that I seriously don't believe that we reap bad consequences in the spiritual realm based on the mere use of some object that can be used for demonic purposes. Whether we have "chosen for" God or not isn't the point: our only responsibility in this life is to live up to that which we can, within ourselves, live with for ourselves, in this mortal and very physically concrete life.

When we accidentally do things wrong (such as killing someone after drinking and driving) there are physical consequences! Jail time, possibly death for us too... But I'm noting that doing this has never been openly used as an example of "inviting" demons to possess a person! Because it's not an open invitation for that and we all know it. It's just alcohol and it has a chemical reaction in our bodies that causes us to do stupid things when we've lost control of how much and how often we've consumed it. We know that God's Forgiveness is there for those who've killed or maimed while at the wheel (whether intoxicated or not!) And yet we are so harsh in our attitudes towards those who don't carry the same fears about solid objects that we carry.

When we intentionally do stupid things, thinking we can get away with them, well, the truth is, sometimes we do get away with them, and other times we don't, and even then, the consequences vary, based on many, many outside yet influential factors. And all those consequences, again, are in the physical world. Our bad actions have no affect at all on the Good Gifts that God has in store for us! It's only when we, in our minds, have not yet Grown to a place where we are ready for those Gifts that we don't receive them. It's a gross misinterpretation of life and it's happenings to say, "Well, I messed up 10 years ago, and now I'm being Punished by God for it, and that's why my life is not so great today, because God doesn't Forgive after all." It's better to say, "Well, I had unprotected sex with a wo/man I didn't insist on seeing a health-report on, and now I have HIV/AIDS. I need to Ask for Healing, and ask those who have the Gift of Healing to Pray in Faith and Heal me in Jesus' Name." I wish more people understood this basic principle! We would judge each other far less harshly than we often do, if more of us would receive this understanding.

So, with that explanation out of the way, I'll also say this: I do believe that, if we sincerely, specifically, decidedly and openly choose to give ourselves over to demonic possession, well, duh, even God has to respect that choice! Yet even then... God doesn't give up on His Beloved. He still looks out the tent-flap, and when He Sees that She Sees that She's had enough harassment, He still runs down that road to Greet Her... That's a Good News Promise that can NOT be Broken! If it could, I wouldn't want Him at all. Ever. The only thing that can and should be Broken are the chains that bind us when we've made the ultimate errors in judgment that many can and do make, and those chains get Broken all the time. By God. Not by people. Prayers are good, broken hearts reaching out are better, but when there is no one available that even knows that something is wrong in the first place, God is there. That's another Promise that I hope we can all agree on and hang onto. It's one that I've had to learn the hard way in my life, and life wouldn't be worth living if that weren't true either.

[olger]

I appreciate your statement that our choices bring consequences into our lives. This is Biblical truth.

Lest you misunderstand, my thoughts here are general and not aimed at any one of us.

As to the occult, Paul warns belivers in Ephesians 4:27 not to give place to the devil. The term "place" is a word meaning base of operation or opportunity. Satan is constantly looking for opportunities to set up camp right in our own lives. When we commit sins without confessing them we give satan territory that he then uses to seek to control us, thereby destroying our effectiveness for the Lord.

We either resist the evil one's influence or we relinquish control to his power. The enemy cannot take ground without our cooperation or permission. while he can put thoughts in our minds or place temptation in our paths, we choose to either follow or resist.

Satan's goals concerning believers are to..

* outwit or take advantage of us (2 Cor 2:10-14; 1 Peter 5:8)

* ensnare us to do his will (2 Tim. 2:26)

* steal kill and destroy (John 10:10)

* confuse us to keep us from understanding God's word (Mark 4:15)

* distort the truth (John 8:44)

Jesus said everyone who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). A person whoc practices sin or is exposed to a sinful pattern may become trapped by that particular sin. As ground is given to the enemy, a person becomes enslavment of sin (John 8:36). Paul warned believers to not allow sin to "reign" (exercise kingly power, control, or dominate them). Each of us has a choice. We can either be enslaved to sin or to righteousness (Romans 6:16-17, 22).

The enemy seeks to take control of a person through..

* rebellion (1 Samuel 15:23)

* Interest or participation in occult activities

* moral failure (Individuals who participate in pornography,

prostitution or other immoral activities open their lives to

the control of the enemy. men involved in pornography have

brought home demonic problems to their wives). Sorry to be

blunt, but it needs to be said, dear friends.

* religious fetishes (Some religious groups, such as RCC, sell

items that are "designed" to protect or provide a special

blessing).

* drugs I(drugs open the mind to enemy's control)

* music (The enemy is drawn towards a person who listens to music that glorifies satan).

Victory from the enslavement of sin and the enemy is possible. The word of God gives seven keys to freedom.

• separation from sin (becoming dead to sin). Romans 6:11; gal. 5:24.

• Intimacy with God/Christ. Phil 1:21; Hebrews 12:1-2; james 4:7-8; gal. 2:20.

• Resisting the devil. James 4:7

• A yielded life. Romans 6:13; 12:1-2.

• Taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. 2 Cor; 10:5; Col 3:1-2, Romans 12:2.

• The Word of God. ..truth. psalm 119:113, 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

• Being filled (controlled by) the Holy Spirit. Gal. 5:16; Eph. 5:18

There is much that unites us,

olger

[jasd]

>>So, my point being, that I seriously don't believe that we reap bad consequences in the spiritual realm based on the mere use of some object that can be used for demonic purposes.<<

Well, having no experience from which to draw upon – it is as I’ve stated, “I’ve been told ...” That said,

and remembering that the COI at the time of the Deuteronomic injunction below – were under Covenant – might that passage not bear upon the premise that ‘evil/enemy’ attaches to objects?

Deut 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. v26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

[Clio]

>>So, my point being, that I seriously don't believe that we reap bad consequences in the spiritual realm based on the mere use of some object that can be used for demonic purposes.<<

Well, having no experience from which to draw upon – it is as I’ve stated, “I’ve been told ...” That said,

and remembering that the COI at the time of the Deuteronomic injunction below – were under Covenant – might that passage not bear upon the premise that ‘evil/enemy’ attaches to objects?

Deut 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. v26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

It has a direct bearing. We inadvertantly took such an abomination into our home as "art", and the consequences were very real.

I do not believe I was any less Abba's Daughter, but it did give an "in" to our home that caused grave misunderstanding.

Arguments would ensue that when we left and went to another room, spoke precisely the same thing, no misunderstanding occurred and all was harmony.

It didn't necessisarily cause us to speak in anger, but it caused misunderstandings, which caused strife, until we picked up on the pattern and started looking for the cause.

Olger is incorrect.

His supposition is contrary to the Bible and the spiritual principles laid out in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Just because he chooses not to believe does not make it any less so. Many times the COI chose to disbelieve the watchman on the walls. It didn't make his warnings any less true.

Clio

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Olger, I'm sorry if I read what you said to Clio wrong. Thank you for clarifying that with me.

To be honest, I feel like this is a whole different thread. And that I've been misunderstood.

I don't find a lot of actual absolute Biblical support for much of what I'm reading here, but rather more "personal observation" and "personal interpretation" based rules being made about the Spiritual realm and the more vague verses from the Bible. In the past, I have heard many empty arguments from well meaning people who even believed that the Care Bears were evil because supposedly the symbols on their stomachs had satanic value.

All I know is that ridding my house of anything that could possibly have satanic value, or might have been used by a satanist or whatever, would probably mean emptying my whole house -- and yours too! Most of the things in my house are from Good Will. Have I inadvertently brought objects used by the occult into it? Probably. Would I know what they are? Nope. Have I probably eaten off of the same spoon as some satanist from ages past who used to own it? I have no idea. Do I care? Not on your life. It's just a spoon, and God Gave me the money and the inclination to buy it and use it.

Why am I so nonchalant about this? Because I don't get into learning too much about satanic symbolism and all that junk enough to know what those things even are, nor do I care to, thus I'm free from all the fears, worries, and whatnot -- free to just Trust God to Protect me and leave it at that: He doesn't need my help, and if there is some problem that He has with my having some object in my home, I'm sure He'll find some way of letting me know Himself. I don't need to run out into the world and try know everything that's good and evil! I just go where God Guides me, Learn what He Teaches me Himself, do what I want and what it seems that He wants as well, regardless of what that is, and leave it at that.

Also, I refuse to believe that God is so weak as to not be able to Protect the truly Innocent of such "crimes" as accidentally bringing things into their midst that shouldn't be. And I don't believe that such objects have "proximity boundaries." If they do, then what are those boundaries? 3 ft, 2"? 10 ft? What if my neighbor has an idol of some kind? Am I doomed to be affected by that as well? Or would I be better off just accepting it that life isn't perfect nor is it always peaceful, and that's perfectly ok - I don't need to live in fear of accidentally breathing in the same air that some wiccan once breathed. I'm also not afraid to use public restrooms for the same basic reasoning.

In my mind, it's all about one's intentions and/or excuses when bringing such objects into their homes, not which objects they hold in their hands. In other words, I agree that when one intentionally, under such beliefs as I'm reading about here, brings something like that into their home knowing what it is commonly used for, then, because they subscribe to those beliefs in the first place, because it's against their conscience to do this, then they are giving satan some room to work. Because satan knows what they believe in the first place, and is allowed to compare the belief to the action: and I don't think he only does that with satanic objects. When we say "I believe in Matt. 5!" and then don't live it out, I think that gives satan room to work too - and then God just turns around and uses even that new "problem" to His Glory down the road.

I just seriously hold that when it's just a piece of wood or paper or whatever, to the one observing or holding it, then that's all it is. It's pretty much based on what you know and what you know you are choosing. It's always about our choices and our freedom to choose. If you know you're playing with fire, you're going to get burned in a way that God has to allow. If you don't realize what you're getting into in the first place, I've seen far too many examples in my own life where God has been a tad more Protective of me and Guided me away from those things Himself, either quite naturally through my own desires at the time, or rather abruptly and without any explanations.

[Clio]

All I know is that ridding my house of anything that could possibly have satanic value, or might have been used by a satanist or whatever, would probably mean emptying my whole house -- and yours too! Most of the things in my house are from Good Will. Have I inadvertently brought objects used by the occult into it? Probably. Would I know what they are? Nope. Have I probably eaten off of the same spoon as some satanist from ages past who used to own it? I have no idea. Do I care? Not on your life. It's just a spoon, and God Gave me the money and the inclination to buy it and use it.

[olger]

There needs to be more fear of God in this world. Not fright, mind you. Healthy fear of God.

og

[Planey]

There needs to be more fear of God in this world. Not fright, mind you. Healthy fear of God.

Well I would agree with you but then again I never was much of a nail biter...

Graeme

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Originally Posted By: olger

There needs to be more fear of God in this world. Not fright, mind you. Healthy fear of God.

Well I would agree with you but then again I never was much of a nail biter...

Graeme

Well, here I'm replying to all 3 of you Thanks for understanding what I was saying and also for further explaining what you were saying - I appreciate that about you

Truth be told, I'm the one who was a nail-biter. I still can be. In fact, regarding unrelated issues, today was a prime example. Fear is my only true enemy. At least now I know that, and I also know what it means to live without fear.

I was once told, "Don't live in fear of God, live in respect of Him." I couldn't understand that. In my home, one is synonymous with the other, and both mean abuse. It's only through much prayer and the help of many friends who God has placed in my life in the last couple of years that I've come to understand that "respect" simply means "admire, trust, and love." If you look at a team leader, you know that they have authority - but not because it's been granted! Because it's been earned, not through trickery or manipulation, but through honest service in the best interests of the team. God is our Team Leader.

A friend recently challenged me to note that (for as "unlawful" as I can be *snickers*) when you trust someone, you don't always have to be told why they're telling you to do something. You just do it, and believe that it will work out for your and probably their best good. When you trust them. But if you don't trust them, it doesn't matter what they say or do, you'll always be questioning them, always have a "Plan B" in mind. And if you do what they ask anyway, it will be with a watchful eye, rather than just doing what they told you. And, if things don't work out perfectly for you in the end, not only will you not trust them, but you'll hate them, and you'll hate yourself for bothering to try at all in the first place. I've been there with God and man. I know as much about it as I care to.

Trust does have to be earned, and maintained, like I said, through honest, honorable service performed from the heart for the good of those who will need to depend on their leader. It can't be bestowed, nor can it be "all inclusive for eternity" even by those who try. I've tried that myself. It doesn't work as long as a person is able to be skeptical, or simply doesn't know what to expect, or as long as the one being "trusted" is one who is fallible. Anyone can say, "I trust God!" And then turn around and try to solve all of their own problems, even the "Is this God's Will?" problem without including interaction with God Himself in the problem solving process. Even learning to do that is hard, when you've not been taught how. I'm still Learning.

Really, it's a matter of having experiences that Teach you what to expect from God all the time. Which can be confusing at times and can lead to a lot of heart-break as you struggle to understand why God would Lead you into the desert. You might not miss Egypt, but you can't see the Promised Land either, and you get pretty T'd off when all the sudden your Quest for getting to Know Him has taken a left turn. You get worn out first, and then He Gives you small, yet profound Answers that propel you forward, and Teach you what you need to Know for the Life ahead - where you have your own battles to fight, usually in your own mind fought with your heart that is God's, not necessarily always in the physical or even the spiritual worlds. And you have to Live without fear before you are ready to really fight those battles. No warrior who lives in fear can win.

[Tom Wetmore]

There needs to be more fear of God in this world. Not fright, mind you. Healthy fear of God.

"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." -- 2 Timothy 1:7

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." -- 1 John 4:18

Tom

[Raphael]

Hi everybody,

I have made a list below of things everyone's knowledgeable of. I am just refreshing our memory together.

1.) Prayer is the ultimate weapon against evil. Evil comes in most unlikely forms, even in just whiffs of fleeting emotions amongst individuals or people.

2.) People are the pillars of organizations. Congregate those worthy and and reliable to form a formidable but harmless yet helpful and life giving frontier. I recall MLM or multi-level marketing bodies who invest (including most sensitive matters => finance and money) most heavily in their downlines, PEOPLE. We ought to be better than that. We should be foremost in investing in these matters because we carry gigantic titles as soul savers and fishers of men with eternal consequences.

3.) "Common sense is not common practice", be it Biblical or not. Objectivity, issue oriented or object oriented, must be at frequent times be reminded, explained and exhorted. Some says "knowing is nothing, doing is everything", "doing starts with the smallest step, now" and "some simply says 'do something'". We should outdo Dale Carnegie and the hosts of personality trainings and developement!

4.) Let me think awhile ...

Be spirited always,

Raphael

[David Koot]

Just tagging onto Raphael's post . . .

Upon a fair amount of reflection, I do have a suggestion which, while it may seem obvious, at times may need to be brought up as a reminder:

By way of background, quite a bit has been said in the past about keeping posts on topic, and avoiding personal attacks and innuendos. That pertains to public posts on a forum.

What may not have been addressed is in the realm of private communications. Without a doubt, on a public forum such as this one and others, individuals may communicate by PM or personal email, far beyond the scope of the public forum. This, in itself, certainly would seem routine. Nor, one might think, would constraints such as would apply to public posts, perhaps be considered as so necessary.

However, recent observations have led this student to suggest here that guidelines should be followed in such private communications as well. For example, someone complains to someone else about "so-and-so" on the forum. That, in itself, certainly can impact how the person communicated with perceives the one being talked about. From there, others may be brought into the conversation. A person's reputation and character can easily, in the process, be compromised.

How can this be avoided? Certainly, by practicing the Golden Rule. And, by self-policing. That is, in the event one communicates something negative about someone else on the forum, then the recipient of the communication should, promptly, call the one so communicating, on what s/he has done. It should be rebuked. I believe the term is 'gossip.' And, the person 'hearing' the gossip should insist that the one being talked about be made aware, and have an opportunity to respond. The most fundamental fairness dictates such an approach.

Yet, beyond that obvious truth is an equally important need--that is, to point the one gossiping to a better way. Encourage such a person to assume the best about another. The Bible says, "Ye shall not think evil of your brother." Ellen G. White charges us to put "the best possible interpretation upon" the words and actions of others. Someone who is the recipient of negative or destructive communications about another, should call a halt right there, and be an influence upon the one committing the wrong. And, for that matter, even if a person does believe something negative about someone else, that does not make it appropriate to spread such a belief. In fact, it should not be done.

This, we speak of in terms of participants on a forum. The foregoing applies in an exponentially greater way to administrators/moderators. If someone contacts an admin or mod with negative stuff about someone else on the forum, then the admin should call a halt right then and there--should refuse to be a party to dirt. And, the one who is being trashed should be made aware, and have an opportunity to tell his or her side of things.

If this is not done, then someone could very easily influence an administrator or a moderator against others on the forum. Thus, the forum would not be a safe place, and the perception that administration is "for everybody" would be destroyed. Once this happens, the atmosphere would be poisoned for those who have been trashed in such a way. This would result in people leaving the forum. And, of course, there can be additional consequences, including legal action against those spreading the 'dirt.' I understand that has happened fairly recently on other forums.

I say all this, having seen it happen at close range within the very recent past. Such a tragedy does not need to happen, and on a civil, particularly a Christian forum, should never be allowed to happen. I hope that administrators on C/A will take a firm stand about such things, and not be a party to that kind of wrongdoing. I would most heartily urge that administration here make it very clear that such guidelines will be followed on C/A, and work to repair any damage that may have been done if those guidelines have not been followed. Stan, Amelia, Gail, what do you think?

[olger]

Very reasonable suggestions, Dave.

I think honesty & openness should also be encouraged.

Gerry Wagoner

[Woody]

Thanks Dave. And hi Olger.

I would just like to point out that Olger and I had some success along these lines ... with the expert help of Dave.

I only wish that Admin would buy into this. I've tried to encourage this from Admin. But it was only rejected.

Instead of Admin just making threats ... it would be good if they had some dialogue with the accused. I see Admin as totally afraid of dialogue. They don't see their role as moderating. They prefer to go along with what the "moderators" .... "FEEL".

Getting both sides would be a brilliant idea. Opening up communication like Olger and I did ... would be a brilliant idea.

But I think it will take the "leaders" leading. The example of what Olger and I did was not enough unfortunately. It takes leadership.

Would you agree Dave?

[olger]

Hi Redwood.

Yes, I appreciated our communication back during summer. Nice to hear from you and all the best to you,

olger

[David Koot]

Thanks for your kind words, Redwood. Yes, mediation can be very helpful. In the case you referred to, things turned out well, due very largely to the sincerity and good-faith efforts of the parties involved. Both parties--you and Olger, made a real effort, and it worked out. I agree with you that it would be nice to offer mediation as a feature of a forum. That could be a very positive thing to have available, as well as a deterrent to irresponsible conduct on a forum.

The other type of situation which I was referring to, is when someone on a forum approaches forum administration about someone else or others on the forum. This can be done under the masthead of needing someone to talk to, to confide in, to provide emotional support, etc. The Bible is quite explicit in setting boundaries for such a communication. Yes, it is good to have someone to talk to, good to be able to confide, and nice to receive emotional support--but not, repeat NOT at the expense of others. The person being confided in should tactfully steer the conversation away from negative things about others. That kind of stuff is gossip, and the Bible condemns such. Administrators of a Christian forum should be extremely careful to follow such Biblical guidelines. If the attempt to redirect a conversation along Biblically-appropriate lines should fail, then the admin or other person should politely terminate the discussion. Also, the person or persons who have been maligned in this way should promptly be notified, and given an opportunity to respond. I recall hearing a sermon once, in which the pastor desribed a policy for dealing with complaints about others. When such were made to him, he would pull out a little black book, and ask the complainer to write the complaint there, and sign his or her name. He would then, of course, contact the other party.

Failure to follow such common-sense guidelines can have most insidious consequences. For example, consider this nightmare scenario. A person on a Christian forum approaches others on the forum, members and administrators, in a state of severe emotional distress. The cause is stated to be someone or other, perhaps something was posted, or said, or perceived. There is talk of leaving one's faith fellowship, or perhaps even more extreme action. Those who receive this communication are duly alarmed. They want to be supportive of the soul. They are acting in good faith. Yet, in the process, the one who is communicating presents a picture of the offending parties which is quite uncomplimentary, to say the least. Motives are implied, judgments are made about others which are in direct violation of Scripture. IOW they are trashed. The listeners, wanting to be sympathetic, may find themselves drawn into the whole thing, and sympathizing with the poor distressed soul. In the process, they 'buy into' the negative statements made about others. Thus, under the guise of 'sympathy,' they are led to view others on the forum in a negative light. That is just what satan did in heaven. He won the sympathy of many of the angels, and in doing so, turned them against God. Satan still uses such devious tactics today. Satan well knows that many Christians, if approached directly in a negative way, would not be parties to it. But, by the avenue of wanting to be sympathetic to another's pain, he can still accomplish his foul purpose by stealth. So, in the process, satan has succeeded in bringing division, and in passing judgment upon othes. The Bible says that satan is "the accuser of the brethren." Never should a Christian, and particularly an administrator on a Christian forum, countenance such evil, nor be a party to such insinuations. One should be able to recognize this type of handiwork as bearing the insignia of satan, and firmly take a stand. The boundaries should be clearly stated and scrupulously enforced, and an attempt should be made to redirect into Scripturally-appropriate paths. Failure to do so can have the most evil consequences.

Thus, on a Christian forum, the guidelines should be clearly stated and enforced. If a member of the forum needs encouragement, comfort or emotional support, that is good. I would think it would be appropriate to seek that from administration as well as from members. But if it is done at the expense of others, then it is horribly wrong, and administration should be the first to put a stop to it.

Stan, Amelia, Gail, whaddya think of this?

Dave

[Woody]

Quote:

"offer mediation as a feature of a forum"

Thank you Dave for this much needed post. I agree with all you have said. I wish you luck with Admin. I have done my best to promote a good procedure at CA ... but so far it has been rejected even after Olger, you and I demonstrated how effective it can work.

I very much like what you have said. My wife has initiated an approach for this problem in her churches here. Unfortunately one person was extremely destructive with her gossip and attacks on other members. She was just removed from leadership becauase of this last week. Action has to be taken or the cancer will be very harmful and will spread it's malignancy throughout the church or internet body.

I would again join you in encouraging Admin to establish a protocol for just what you have outlined. Mediation is needed at times here on CA. And you would be an excellent resource for them to use. They would not need to do all the work but could utilize volunteers such as you. See ... I am volunteering you!!