What is our church doing about this?

[Neil D]

So far, I have not felt a burden to take a position on the issue of headship before the Fall. My concerns have been with accuracy and faithfulness to the Word as it reads. If one is going to take a position, and claim Scriptural authority for it, then it needs to be well-documented. I did appreciate your observation about the name. To me, it is neither here nor there as far as headship goes.

Dave

But your arguements do lay the foundation for it...My concern was to keep the discussion focused and to ask a question....so far, I am expecting the earth to open up and show that a popular place has frozen over...especially since there was some agreement between me and Ed...As to your insistance on "accuracy and faithfulness to the Word", well, your insistance is YOUR point of view/interpretation of the bible...regardless of your insistance otherwise...

[there buster]

Before, Tarzan no have concern headship. Tarzan busy. Tarzan learn what 'name' mean. Simplify life.

So Tarzan name woman 'woman.' Name boy 'boy.' Name animal 'animal.' Woman say name 'Jane,' but Tarzan say she already have name. Say woman no need other name. She say 'Jane,' her name, give her identity. But Tarzan learn woman have 'identity.' She woman.

Woman all same. Never satisfied.

Now Tarzan understand real study, Tarzan go lake. Look for head ship.

Find ship or no find ship, Tarzan no conjec-- conjure-- no guess.

You find ship, tell Tarzan, so Tarzan can see ship for self.

[Woody]

You are way over my 'head' ed.

[there buster]

Why poster called 'Redwood?' 'Tree' not good enough?

Tarzan learn 'tree' give poster plenty identity. Maybe 'poster' even enough.

Taran have poster in tree house. Animal tear down.

Tarzan not replace. Go lake. Look for head ship.

See head ship, tell Tarzan. Okay?

Tarzan look all through Genesis. (Not know why need 'Genesis.' Why 'book' not enough? Make head ache). Tarzan not find head ship in Genesis. Only find boat called 'Ark.' (Too many names. Why call boat 'ark?' Boat no need identity).

Could 'ark' be head ship?

[Woody]

Take a slow boat to China.

Or just a boat ... if 'slow' is too descriptive for you.

[there buster]

No fool Tarzan. China not in Book.

[Woody]

Quote:

"My herb drink."--We need not go to China for our tea, or to Java for our coffee." 2SM 301

Well .... according to Ellen White ... you are correct ... we do not need to go there.

That settles it. We need not go.

[David Koot]

But your arguements do lay the foundation for it

[there buster]

Waterbird never argue. Waterbird decree and animals obey.

[olger]

Ahem. It appears that the brethren's compass has been affected by a solar storm, please adjust your set.

John Street acted morally inappropriate by strengthening homosexual sin in his public approval of it. That would be like olger singing along with Eminem or Ramstyn on stage to get more "popular." Your children might say "Daddy, elder Wagoner sang those songs. They musn't be so bad..!!" My church would call me to account for it, and they would be right to do so.

Or would they just be intolerant? Deep down we know what is wrong, no matter how we try to justify it in our foolish Pride.

"Pass me Not O Gentle Savior." Pandering to sin is passing Him.

rejoice always,

olger

[John317]

... Lynn will be missed by many. He was such a good supporter and promoter of women's causes in the church today.

Surely ... He Had to be one who was "inspired" of God.

We agree that Dr. Mallory was a good supporter of women's causes in the church. He was passionate about anything that he believed would promote the gospel and help the church grow and become spiritually strong. I took about 6 classes from him, including evangelism, pastoral ministry and homiletics. I will always remember and be grateful for his enthusiasm and dedication to his ministerial students.

He was certainly "led," and his mind illuminated, by the Holy Spirit, but I think he would have rejected the notion that he was "inspired" by God, at least in the Biblical sense of that word. At the same time, though, I'm sure he would have been happy for the confidence that such language reflects.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[cardw]

What is disturbing about the current dialog on the status of men and women are the rationalizations from the idea that we have to interpret scripture before we can have a correct understanding. We are taking an Iron age document that clearly treats women as lesser human beings as expressed by Old Testament law and trying to rationalize it into some superior understanding of the nature of human beings.

This may shed some light on how this may look to those who aren't invested in trying to decode the Bible when we look at a similar debate on wife beating as described in the Quran in this video...

Wife beating debate video

And if you can't see the video here is a partial transcript...

Quote:

Dr. Elias: Our civil law and Islamic law do not present wife-beating as a rule, but they deal with a situation where a man beats his wife. What should we do then? My friend, if you beat your wife and it's only light beatings in order to set things straight - that's it. We forgive light beatings. We tell him, "They are not considered an assault, but discipline."

Al-Shazli: What do you mean by light beatings? I'd very much like to know what they are…

Elias: Light beatings, from the legal aspect…

Al-Shazli :I'd like to say something. When a man treats his wife this way, when his hand is like an iron rod, she is hurt, physically and mentally… What kind of idea is this "light beatings"?

Elias: Light beatings are not excessive. They don't leave a mark, don't break bones, don't cause bleeding, and don't cause death. These are light beatings. With some women - nothing helps except beatings.

Bibars: And with some men - nothing helps except beatings.

Elias: For example, a man comes home from work and finds his wife watching TV. She doesn't even get up to make him food. He tells her once, twice, and asks again. If only once he would raise his voice and beat her, she would get up to prepare food for him and by the next day she'd be obedient. This will last for a week and when she forgets, he will remind her. Let's admit it, the woman was created from a crooked rib.

I would like to send a message from here: The wife must speak quietly and she must carry out all her duties toward her husband and family. She must not give her husband the chance to beat her, and if he has already beaten her, she must treat him in a way that will not cause him to repeat it, so the beatings won't become a habit.

The mental gymnastics that religious people do to maintain their holy book in light of modern understandings is almost unbelievable.

[Beryl]

I agree, Richard. Man is commanded to love his wife -- and if he did that the woman would be bending over backwards to do everything she could to please him.

Beryl

[olger]

Amen Beryl. Ephesians 5 is plain enough.

rejoice always,

oG

[Dr. Shane]

There is no place in the Bible that teaches it is acceptable for a man to beat his wife. Sinful man, can, of course, pervert what the Bible says. That was done to justify terrible abuses during the slave days of America. But a perversion of the Bible does not change what the Bible teaches.

[John317]

Please relate your post to those I've written on this thread. I don't see the connection. I haven't defended wife-beating or mistreating women. I don't believe the Bible condones beating your wife or mistreating women. My remarks were focussed on homosexuality, showing that the Bible views these relationships as unnatural or against nature.

"John 3: 17"

[cardw]

Quote:

Please relate your post to those I've written on this thread. I don't see the connection. I haven't defended wife-beating or mistreating women. I don't believe the Bible condones beating your wife or mistreating women. My remarks were focussed on homosexuality, showing that the Bible views these relationships as unnatural or against nature.

Not every post is about you Jim.

[cardw]

Quote:

There is no place in the Bible that teaches it is acceptable for a man to beat his wife.

Shane, do you actually read my posts?

Quote:

Sinful man, can, of course, pervert what the Bible says. That was done to justify terrible abuses during the slave days of America. But a perversion of the Bible does not change what the Bible teaches.

Leviticus 25: 45 Moveover the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land; and they shall be your possession.

Exodus 21: 20 And if a man smite his slave, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 But if he live for a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money.

1 Corinthians 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Leviticus 21: 9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father; she shall be burnt with fire.

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.

Deuteronomy 25: 11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Deuteronomy 22: 28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. 29 Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Not a pretty picture...

[John317]

Quote:

Please relate your post to those I've written on this thread. I don't see the connection. I haven't defended wife-beating or mistreating women. I don't believe the Bible condones beating your wife or mistreating women. My remarks were focussed on homosexuality, showing that the Bible views these relationships as unnatural or against nature.

Not every post is about you...

I just wondered if it had anything to do with my posts because your post was directed to me.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Not a pretty picture...

These are some of the texts that many have perverted over the centuries to mean something other than they do. Thank you for listing them for me. As I said, just because men have perverted what the Bible says by taking it out of context, doesn't actually change the message It contains.

I see beauty, peace, justice, mercy, righteousness, goodness, patience and liberty throughout the Bible. To me, there is no prettier picture. Of course sinful man can take even the most beautiful and make it profane.

[cardw]

Quote:

I see beauty, peace, justice, mercy, righteousness, goodness, patience and liberty throughout the Bible. To me, there is no prettier picture. Of course sinful man can take even the most beautiful and make it profane.

That's because you pick and choose.

[there buster]

Quote:

John Street acted morally inappropriate . . . . My church would call me to account for it, and they would be right to do so.

Many churches would deal with it. That would not change the fact that they would be out of bounds to do so. The church is not put in charge of any member's morality, but only the reputation and standing of the church itself.

We have some of these oppressive congregations that assume the right to police members' lives in every moral respect, but they are the natural allies of the power that denies the right to buy and sell because of beliefs than they are the Body of Christ.

Of course, these oppressive congregations are more effective at dealing with open sexual sin than they are with lying and coveting.

Of the things that God hates, arrogance and are high on the list. Sex doesn't make the cut.

[there buster]

Quote:

Not a pretty picture...

That's because your focus is faulty. You ignore the cultural context into which they were spoken.

I have no doubt that there are practices common and even approved by contemporary culture that, in the perspective of eternity, will be seen as repulsive.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

A church whose children as a whole are leaving in huge numbers is not providing for its own.

[Woody]

Thank you Ed. I appreciate your candid post. You have laid it on the line. Like you say ... there are many who feel that instead of God doing the judging ... they have been given that task.

But once you judge ... you had better do ALL of it and not leave anything out. Where would you stop? Which sins are more important to judge than others?

Our standards and beliefs are always there. But we ALL fall short of those beliefs and standards. Acknowledging that we ALL fall short would be a good idea. Then we could move on with the real task that God has called us to do ... and that is to LOVE one another. And it will WIN more than doing the condemnation thing.

[olger]

Quote:

Many churches would deal with it. That would not change the fact that they would be out of bounds to do so. The church is not put in charge of any member's morality, but only the reputation and standing of the church itself.

I accept your opinion that churches should ignore such things. I happen to disagree with that opinion.

Quote:

We have some of these oppressive congregations that assume the right to police members' lives in every moral respect, but they are the natural allies of the power that denies the right to buy and sell because of beliefs than they are the Body of Christ.

Typos notwithstanding, the extreme zeal to control the lives of members is indeed popish. However the universal contribution of each member to accountability provides us with Paul’s New testament model. People who expect to be held accountable have the least opposition towards it. Must accountability die that rebellion might live?

Quote:

Of course, these oppressive congregations are more effective at dealing with open sexual sin than they are with lying and coveting.

Sorry to hear it. I know that you don’t believe in generalizations, but this almost seems like one. With you, I agree that oppressive congregations are not helpful—equally so as apathetic congregations.

Quote:

Of the things that God hates, arrogance and are high on the list. Sex doesn't make the cut.

If you confine your list to the sixth chapter of Proverbs, then I agree! If we broaden our search to the whole Bible, we see a larger picture. Has Proverbs 6 replaced the 10 commandments? Or 1 Thessalonians 4?

“Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.”

Pride often leads a person to immorality, in my experience. Then he has two deadly strongholds in his life.

Lord bless,

olger