What is our church doing about this?

[olger]

Yer doin allright Shane..

[cardw]

Quote:

Quite frankly, if anyone in this thread is not qualified to talk about the subject, it is those that are not gay, have never lived with gay people, have never struggled with gay people and simply have sat on the sidelines playing the role of a couch quarterback.

What are you saying here Shane? Unlike you I don't throw out my association with gay people as a qualification to speak for them. You assume that I have not struggled with friends and these issues. You have no idea.

You are using guilt by lack of association. You are one of the most dishonest people I have ever dialoged with. You ignore good evidence, produce arguments based on slander, association, and you use sources that have clearly demonstrated a lack of openness and honest confrontations with truth.

Quote:

As I stated earlier, if Alcoholics Anonymous was held to the same standard that Gay Rights groups try to hold exit ministries to, AA would be an astonishing failure. The study cited above states that 11% moved toward heterosexuality. The first point here must be to point out the goal of exit ministries is not to turn homosexuals into heterosexuals. So if that is what is being used to measure the success of such ministries, the results are going to be flawed from the start. The second point is that A.A. has been shown to have similar rates of success thus placing the success rate of alcoholics and homosexuals at the same level. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Lets apply the same policy of success to to AA. Unlike 11 percent moving toward not using alcohol you have 11% NOT using alcohol. This is a true measure of success. These studies are nothing alike. They clearly have different standards of success. Also no one has established that homosexuality is a disease.

At least AA has some true successes. If becoming heterosexual is not the goal, then that is an admission that homosexuality is an orientation or at least untreatable and the only thing that can be addressed is behavior. But behavior is much different than orientation. The behavior that is harmful to homosexuals is also harmful to heterosexuals.

You are playing semantics here. You have not addressed one point of rational debate. You use slander, generalization, exaggeration, bad science, outright false statements, and poor reasoning.

Quote:

I have put my love into action. I have not just set back and said this and that about gays and what they should and shouldn't do. I have gotten down into the trenches with them. I have prayed with them, studied with them, embraced them, let them cry on my shoulder. I have tried to love them as Christ loves them.

This does not negate poor reasoning. You can have all the good intent you want, but wrong is wrong.

[Neil D]

Quite frankly, if anyone in this thread is not qualified to talk about the subject, it is those that are not gay, have never lived with gay people, have never struggled with gay people and simply have sat on the sidelines playing the role of a couch quarterback.

I have put my love into action. I have not just set back and said this and that about gays and what they should and shouldn't do. I have gotten down into the trenches with them. I have prayed with them, studied with them, embraced them, let them cry on my shoulder. I have tried to love them as Christ loves them.

Hmmmmmm.....I don't know about anyone else, but I think anyone who posts here has just had his hands slapped with a "I'm better than anyone to explain to you what you need to know/believe about gays"....

Quite frankly, this uppity attitude is rather unpleasent to see.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my anti-authoritarian-ism has just been rubbed the wrong way...Shane, you have not built up enough trust between you and me to say this. This is rather rude on your part to show such an attitude...I would dare say that you have not built enough trust with everyone on this board to be able to say that....

Totally rude, man...totally rude...

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

For me personally, homosexual behavior is not something I could even fathom having a desire for. I am reasonably certain that would not be a way I would seek to find any type of excitement or connection. But I know what it is like to desire the intimate connection with a woman.

Man's desire for intimate connection with a woman has absolutely nothing to do with a gay person's sexual desire for another gay person. Anyone that thinks they can understand the gay mind by being able to understand the heterosexual has no grasp of the issue. The American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality as a mental illness until 1973 and the World Health Organization had it listed as a mental illness until 1992. Both organizations now classify it as a sexual disorder. The change was not due to medical research or new discovery. The change was due to political pressure.

I don't buy that. If it was a mental illness before, a change in the political environment is not going to change whether or not something is a mental illness. I read a book written by a psychologist prior to 1973. He specialized in treating alcoholics and homosexuals and called the two disorders cousins. I am an alcoholic and have lived with and known homosexuals enough that I agree with that position.

[olger]

It's still a mental illness, of course. As Leslie Hardinge said, those things don't change with time.

But God is in the business of changing lives, and He can change their heart and mine.

oG

[cardw]

Quote:

Man's desire for intimate connection with a woman has absolutely nothing to do with a gay person's sexual desire for another gay person. Anyone that thinks they can understand the gay mind by being able to understand the heterosexual has no grasp of the issue.

Unlike you Shane, I don't generalize the feelings of a whole group by what one person feels or believes. To make my point clearer I would ask you to tell me the motivation that men and women have for getting together? I don't think you will find simply one answer because we are all individuals.

And, unlike you I don't simply look at research that bolsters my opinion. I'm far more interested in what is true. This tends to work better for me.

You can read this paper that summarizes where we are today in regard to the possibility that homosexuality is a mental disease. They are honest enough to say they don't know.

There is good evidence that mental disease as its classified today is higher among the gay and lesbian population. What I would note is the following quote from this particular paper.

Quote:

Next, we ask--do the papers show that it is gay lifestyle factors, or society's stigmatization, that are the motivators that lead a person to attempt suicide? Neither conclusion is inevitable. Still, Saghir and Robins (1978) examined reasons for suicide attempts among homosexuals and found that if the reasons for the attempt were connected with homosexuality, about 2/3 were due to breakups of relationships --not outside pressures from society.

Similarly, Bell and Weinberg (1981) also found the major reason for suicide attempts was the breakup of relationships. In second place, they said, was the inability to accept oneself. Since homosexuals have greater numbers of partners and breakups, compared with heterosexuals, and since longterm gay male relationships are rarely monagamous, it is hardly surprising if suicide attempts are proportionally greater.

Now I ask you, if gay relationships aren't based on at least a similar desire to be connected, why would the break up of relationships be a cause of depression? In heterosexuals this is high among reasons for suicide as well. If these relationships didn't have something real there wouldn't be any disappointment in their break up.

This would provide an implication that having a stable alternative to the gay lifestyle would at least reduce the incidence of suicide. And rather than trying to focus on orientation we need to focus on accepting one's self which is in the classification of grace.

Quote:

If it was a mental illness before, a change in the political environment is not going to change whether or not something is a mental illness.

The truth is we don't know where to classify it. And treating it as a mental illness has failed miserably. If there is mental illness it appears that it is a side effect of the lifestyle, not the orientation.

Quote:

I read a book written by a psychologist prior to 1973. He specialized in treating alcoholics and homosexuals and called the two disorders cousins. I am an alcoholic and have lived with and known homosexuals enough that I agree with that position.

Well, we don't know which book and who the psychologist is. And fortunately we don't make factual decisions based on living with two homosexuals and being an alcoholic.

[there buster]

Quote:

Unlike you (name), I don't generalize the feelings of a whole group by what one person feels or believes. . . .

And, unlike you I don't . . . .

thanks! That's one for the book.

[Dr. Shane]

I start off with the belief that the Bible is inspired and infallible. I have read research done by those that do not believe in the Bible and much of it is valuable. For example, much research has been done to discover what causes homosexuality. That is valuable information. However the gay rights groups try to use research to justify the behavior rather than help the gay community. So while the research can be helpful, what many people are doing with it is not.

What is the measure of success of those trying to break out of the lifestyle? I would have to say it is the same as with any sin. That being progress. If I have sinned by not paying a faithful tithe, overeating, lying or using pornography and I try to get free from it, my success will be measured by my progress. Let's consider tithe for a moment. If I go from paying no tithe to paying 50% of what I should be paying, that is progress and is a measure of some success. Breaking free from ingrained sin is a struggle. We are not sinners one day and sin free the next. Dealing with alcoholism and homosexuality is no different.

I don't know much about lesbianism. I do not believe it is the same disorder as male homosexuality. I have been acquainted with lesbians in exit ministries. I know the treatment for lesbianism is different than for male homosexuals. The lifestyle is also different. I make this distinction because some things I may post about gays are not true about lesbians. Bisexuality among lesbians is also varies in much greater degrees than in male homosexuality and a greater percentage of the female population has had sexual encounters with other females than the male population has with other males. I am really out of my league when talking about lesbianism other than what the Bible teaches about it.

[Guest gem]

I know the treatment for lesbianism is different than for male homosexuals. The lifestyle is also different.

Why is it that male homosexual is more intriguing than lesbianism? In public, it seems to me that people are more curious,intrigued, or fascinated with male gay couples than lesbian couples. However, in church people seem to react the same to either male (gay) or lesbian couples.

[Gregory Matthews]

Males can understand why a person is sexually attracted to a female. They typically have a harder time on the male end of it.

[John317]

Males can understand why a person is sexually attracted to a female. They typically have a harder time on the male end of it.

I've noticed that females are generally more likely to talk about how another female is pretty or beautiful or even sexy than males are to talk about how handsome another male is. (Merely noticing that someone is attractive is not sin. It is when it involves wrong desires that it becomes sinful.) I have a hard time believing that males don't notice-- I tend, rather, to think it's because males feel their masculinity is threatened somehow by the very idea of admitting they entertain such thoughts or feelings. Most females apparently feel no such threat to their femininity when they express these feelings about one another.

For me the fact that males have a harder time understanding why a person is attracted to a male is a strong argument that some people are "born gay," that is, they are born with a "natural" tendency to be attracted to their same gender. I am quite sure males don't usually decide to feel attracted to another male. I know I didn't. The same with heterosexuals: I am sure they don't make a conscious decision, "I'm going to be attracted to females." One either is or is not.

Even gay people, of course, are not attracted to all members of their gender, just as no heterosexual is attracted to all members of the opposite sex.

I've prayed many times that God would help me to be sexually attracted to females, and He has done this. I don't find it at all surprising that God is able to heal our minds that way. I believe it is part of the process of sanctification. I'm happily married now and have had two daughters. I don't think getting married is necessarily a good idea for all "gays" who are trying by God's grace to quit that lifestyle, but I know that God does answer these kinds of sincere, honest, persistent prayers. It doesn't happen overnight, for sure. But like Jesus said, Keep knocking, keep asking, keep seeking, in faith, expecting an answer. God only answered my prayers in this after I decided that I would stay loyal to God no matter whether he answered me or not. I had to fully surrender my whole person, including my sexuality, to Him, before I became aware that He was answering my prayer about this aspect of my life.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[pacunurse30]

Okay I might get blasted for this, but I actually think homosexuality is a genetic fluke. Of course, it's the result of sin, but it's still a deviation from what God originally intended. I haven't studied the subject at length, but I know there has been research done on the hormone levels of gays vs heterosexuals (ie estrogen and testosterone). Now here's the question: If homosexuality is indeed a genetic fluke, or hormonal defect, is the individual still held responsible for their behavior? Is it still sin? The answer would be yes, if you believe that God has enough power to overcome genetic flaws and lead the person into a life of holiness.

Alcoholism is thought to have a genetic component, as are nicotine and drug addictions. I won't get into the scientific mumbo jumbo, but basically some people have an affinity for the chemicals found in various substances.

[olger]

No blast, PN. I do believe that Jesus can have victory with any life given to Him upon condition of surrender (Mark 5:2-15).

oG

[Woody]

No blast, PN. I do believe that Jesus can have victory with any life given to Him upon condition of surrender (Mark 5:2-15).

oG

Yes. Olger. You are right. The key word is "CAN". This means that God does have the power. It does not mean that He will do it in your life. We can all as Christians HOPE for miracles and blessings in our life. But some are chosen to suffer and remain in uncomfortable and unfortunate situations of life.

These people can pray until the cows come home for a miracle or good things to happen in their life. But, if they don't use some more key words ... "In Your Will" ... they will not understand why the prayers are not answered.

God would desire all of us to have no suffering and the cattle on a thousand hills. But, he does not give all this to us. The matter of the Great Controversy must play out. I would recommend the book ... The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan ... to all who are interested on this topic. It is a good read.

[olger]

Say, that is a good read. (GC, I mean).

Here is an interesting quote

Quote:

Yes. Olger. You are right. The key word is "CAN". This means that God does have the power. It does not mean that He will do it in your life. We can all as Christians HOPE for miracles and blessings in our life. But some are chosen to suffer and remain in uncomfortable and unfortunate situations of life.

.

Couple observations:

God is able "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." (2 Cor 9:8).

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23). Unbelief is offensive to God, and it manifests itself in disobedience.

Obedience in the Christian life is predicated upon the surrender of our will. God never intended that we would live like "selfish sinful pigs" (Richard Frederick's words). If we do, our condemnation is just. Fredericks, `92.

"But some are chosen to suffer and remain in uncomfortable and unfortunate situations of life." This sounds like the rumninations of John Calvin. What is your opinion of Calvinism?

Back to the GC (Great Controversy). That is a fantastic book. Nan & I just read it this year again.

How's your work going today? I have 65-sheets of OSB to install in our new shop ceiling - it's cold here in Ohio.

oG

[John317]

Okay I might get blasted for this, but I actually think homosexuality is a genetic fluke. Of course, it's the result of sin, but it's still a deviation from what God originally intended. I haven't studied the subject at length, but I know there has been research done on the hormone levels of gays vs heterosexuals (ie estrogen and testosterone). Now here's the question: If homosexuality is indeed a genetic fluke, or hormonal defect, is the individual still held responsible for their behavior? Is it still sin? The answer would be yes, if you believe that God has enough power to overcome genetic flaws and lead the person into a life of holiness.

Alcoholism is thought to have a genetic component, as are nicotine and drug addictions. I won't get into the scientific mumbo jumbo, but basically some people have an affinity for the chemicals found in various substances.

I agree with everything you've said here. Many who are homosexual or transsexual have hereditary "flukes," as you call them. Of course there are many also who don't have such flukes. There are many reasons for practicing homosexuality. Some are due to early childhood experiences. Others are born with a feminine brain. There are others who have started on that road while in the military or in prison. But no matter what the reason is for practicing it, God is able to help people resist and overcome sin.

People who are struggling with that or any other sin need other Christians to pray for them, and they themselves must be completely committed to Christ and to doing His will. I only began to experience victory over it after I became willing to lose my life in order to obey God. I had to really die to my self. My self lived for what the Bible says is sin. I have to kill that self every day, some times many times a day. Jesus said, "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Losing your life for Christ's sake is well worth it, I've found.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

How's your work going today? I have 65-sheets of OSB to install in our new shop ceiling - it's cold here in Ohio.

Well .... I prefer the weather in the West.

[olger]

No doubt. Dylan & I are heading to St. Paul, Thursday. Oughta be some cold up there..

oG

[pacunurse30]

I agree with what you said about struggling with something and submitting yourself to God. The only reason I stated that I felt homosexual feelings are genetic or hormonal is because a lot of people notice these feelings at very young ages. Of course there is the issue of abuse, introduction to gay pornography, etc. However, I doubt most homosexuals experience this. Most grew up in a normal environment free of abuse. When they reached the age at which one develops sexual attractions, they found themselves looking at people of the same sex. Like you stated, they didn't just decide "you know what, I think I'll decide to like boys instead of girls." I do believe that God has the power to overcome this. But it's not easy. I have a few co-workers that I consider friends who are homosexual. They've all given me the stories of attempts at changing themselves. Most have decided that it won't happen and therefore choose to live thier lives as a homosexual. Therein lies the problem. When you give in to something in defeat, then you are on a slippery slope. But if you give something to God and say "I don't want this, but it's got a hold on me. Please help me with this," then I think you're on the right track.

[cardw]

Quote:

Therein lies the problem. When you give in to something in defeat, then you are on a slippery slope. But if you give something to God and say "I don't want this, but it's got a hold on me. Please help me with this," then I think you're on the right track.

So at what point do you decide that it doesn't work? At what point do you decide that its a waste of energy and time? You don't know, so you have no basis to say they should not give up.

Because there is always one more thing I must doing wrong, God always has an excuse. This is a formula for frustration and a certain form of madness. And because God must always be right, then I must always be wrong.

I think its terribly misguided to say its because someone gave up. If I'm born without a leg, I can pray all I want and its not going to grow back. And if you would say its because I didn't have enough faith or I gave up, that would be seen as horribly cruel by most people.

Unfortunately there are those who see that as reasonable conclusion even in the case of a missing limb. We have biological examples of people who have chromozomes of a male and the body of a female. The Bible has nothing to say about this. We are facing ethical problems that require a lot more creative solutions than you just need to keep trying.

[olger]

I agree with your post, PN. Thanks for sharing.

Richard, you've asked a good question. "At what point..?"

When we violate the Law of God (let's assume that it's a sexual sin) we immediately receive three consequences into our heart. Guilt, shame & fear. These three things hurt. God sends them in His goodness to awaken us to the fact that we have sinned against Him.

Now, there are only three ways to go. Cover the pain, deny the existence of right & wrong, or repent. No other options exist.

* People try to cover pain in many ways. Drugs, acohol, music etc.. Do you realize how many people they bury in this box canyon?

* Deny. This is the wellspring of atheism, agnosticism and unbelief. This too is a box canyon with no way out, People in this condition slowly lose their ability to pray. They lock their heart to God. But there is a way out if we acknowledge our sin and repent.

* Acknowledge & repent. This requires that we go back the way we came and face our sin. Broken, we call out to God in repentance and He hears. He restores us back into fellowship with Him.

God's government is good & righteous. His Spirit guides us away from sin.

oG

Jer. 29:11

[cardw]

Quote:

Law of God (let's assume that it's a sexual sin) we immediately receive three consequences into our heart. Guilt, shame & fear. These three things hurt. God sends them in His goodness to awaken us to the fact that we have sinned against Him.

I disagree with this. I find that most pain comes from ego and lack of awareness. If we sin, we sin against ourselves. For me the whole purpose of ethical behavior is to reduce suffering.

I have found that many things that I have suffered from have simply been made up in my own mind. And I believe from experience that many of these ideas that suggest we need a savior for some imaginary depraved state are self fulfilling.

Quote:

Acknowledge & repent. This requires that we go back the way we came and face our sin. Broken, we call out to God in repentance and He hears. He restores us back into fellowship with Him.

Practicing this for the first 35-40 years of my life NEVER worked. There was always something else to repent from or the same mistake would repeat itself or a never ending saying I was sorry. Or the suggestion was that I wasn't praying the right thing or trying hard enough.

What happened when I stopped believing in this method was that I gained self control, felt happier, felt lighter, and I actually began to grow. Atheism and Agnosticism can be very positive shifts in awareness. In many ways they were an acknowledgment that this type of mental gymnastics simply doesn't work and opened me up to a different way of living my life very successfully.

I have posted this quote from George Smith before but I think it is worth repeating...

Quote:

In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince men that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, man is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.

[David Koot]

I have found that many things that I have suffered from have simply been made up in my own mind. And I believe from experience that many of these ideas that suggest we need a savior for some imaginary depraved state are self fulfilling . . .

Practicing this for the first 35-40 years of my life NEVER worked. There was always something else to repent from or the same mistake would repeat itself or a never ending saying I was sorry. Or the suggestion was that I wasn't praying the right thing or trying hard enough.

[John317]

I agree with what you said about struggling with something and submitting yourself to God. The only reason I stated that I felt homosexual feelings are genetic or hormonal is because a lot of people notice these feelings at very young ages. Of course there is the issue of abuse, introduction to gay pornography, etc. However, I doubt most homosexuals experience this. Most grew up in a normal environment free of abuse. When they reached the age at which one develops sexual attractions, they found themselves looking at people of the same sex. Like you stated, they didn't just decide "you know what, I think I'll decide to like boys instead of girls." I do believe that God has the power to overcome this. But it's not easy. I have a few co-workers that I consider friends who are homosexual. They've all given me the stories of attempts at changing themselves. Most have decided that it won't happen and therefore choose to live thier lives as a homosexual. Therein lies the problem. When you give in to something in defeat, then you are on a slippery slope. But if you give something to God and say "I don't want this, but it's got a hold on me. Please help me with this," then I think you're on the right track.

You've said it very well, I think. I would say that it is utterly impossible for a true homosexual or transgender person to change on their own. Like I said before, I came very close to giving up on ever changing. I struggled for more than 30 years. I wasn't struggling the whole time, of course. Much of that time I just gave in to my feelings and desires, because I felt helpless to do anything, and I was tired of being defeated all the time. So I know from personal experience just how difficult if not impossible it can be. The only way a person can really change is through the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm absolutely convinced of that. It can only be successful when a person determines they want Christ more than anything else, even more than they want their emotional needs satisfied. I realize now that for almost all of those 30 years, my god was actually my emotional and sexual needs. I wanted Jesus but not at the expense of those inborn feelings and desires. They were everything to me. I had to be willing to give them up completely before God started freeing me from them. Before that, I had prayed to be rid of them, but then I wanted to keep some of them. I wanted every once in a while to "go back for a visit," as it were. But of course that was impossible. A visits turns into a stay.

I think that's the way it is with all sin. I don't think the homosexual sin is any different in that way from any other sin the Holy Spirit convicts us of. Jesus must have all of us, our whole mind and body, not just part of us or for a while. He refuses to play second fiddle.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[olger]

Quote:

What happened when I stopped believing in this method was that I gained self control, felt happier, felt lighter, and I actually began to grow. Atheism and Agnosticism can be very positive shifts in awareness. In many ways they were an acknowledgment that this type of mental gymnastics simply doesn't work and opened me up to a different way of living my life very successfully.

What brings you to this Christian board, Richard?

oG