What is our church doing about this?

[Gregory Matthews]

The fulndamental question in this is: Is homosexuality an orientation, or a behavior.

If it is a behavior it may be a choice.

If it is an orientation it is not a choice.

People who discuss homosecuality often come from differing perspectives on this.

I come from a perspective that it is an orintation. I have worked closely with homosexuals. The people whom I worked with did not have a choice as to their homosexuality. They did have a choice as to their behavior.

[olger]

"Today on It Is Written, we are going to talk about one of the touchiest subjects in North America. I have a very special guest with me today who knows what he is talking about when it comes to the issue of same-sex relationships and the debate that is raging over gay rights.

On a recent edition of It Is Written, I spoke to a man who used to be part of the gay community, but now tells the incredible story of how his life has been utterly transformed by the power of God. He told us how God is able to take any circumstance in your life and completely turn it around, no matter how impossible it might seem to you.

Today, Ron is a Christian minister who helps many people find new hope in his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And today Ron is here to help me understand some of the mistakes Christians have made in relating to the gay community. He is here to give us some advice, encouragement and hope as we find ways to share God's love with our neighbors who might be struggling with this very same issue.

INTERVIEW:

SHAWN: Ron, it's just fantastic to be together again in the studio. Great to see you.

RON: It's good to be back on with you.

SHAWN: You know, Ron, this is, again, one of the touchiest subjects in North America today. And one experience that I have had is members of the gay community have come to me, as a minister, oftentimes with tears in their eyes, and share a story of how somebody who goes to church has treated them. You know, somebody called them names, or somebody spit in their direction or something like that.

And so the question that I've come to wonder is, in the gay community, is there this perception that the church, the Christian church, is the enemy? How is the church perceived by the gay community?

RON: Well, I can only speak from my own experience. Again, I'm not a professional in these areas. I am only a professional in my own experience. And in my situation, I felt that the church had really let me down because the comments that were made about me were, that I could not be changed.

In fact, that's why I titled my book the way I did, ”That Kind Can Never Change. Can They?” Because this was the position that people of prominence in our church were taking. And yet, the church is trying to convert people from lives of sin, to come to Christ and give themselves to Jesus.

To me there was hypocrisy, there was a double standard. And so the confusion that was generated by that, I think really works against a homosexual. On one hand, the church will say that we will be sinning until Jesus comes. The law was nailed to the cross. But you better change your life or you'll never go to heaven. And so my question would be: Why do I have to change if you dontt have to change? Why is my sin something that has to be overcome whereas your sin is not?

So we have to be careful in the Christian church about having double standards. And to me, what I was looking for so strongly in trying to come back to God, because I knew I was lost, was consistency.

God says, "Come now, let's reason together."

The gospel is reasonable, it's logical and it's consistent. And this is what I needed to find in the church. I needed to see consistency as well as unconditional love and acceptance.

SHAWN: Now Ron, I think one thing that many people have struggled with is, they think, "Now listen, if somebody murders, that can make sense. They might have been in a fit of rage. It's the wrong thing to do, but I can see how it would happen."

Or they say, "That person stole, but I can see how they might do that because their kids were hungry or they were a little short on their pay this week. So it might be wrong, but I understand how they did that."

But the homosexual thing, that doesn't make sense, that is different. That's different than every other sin.

RON: Well, it's different because it's not their sin. And this is something that I really like to point out. When I was trying to come back to the Lord, people, well-meaning Christians, would sit across the table from me and ask if the Lord was giving me victory over my cigarettes, while they were leading me into sin of another kind at that very moment. Again, there was that inconsistency and I began to think, you know, there must be two kinds of sin. There must be acceptable sins and unacceptable sins, socially or spiritually or what have you.

And then I came to the conclusion, I know how to define what is acceptable and what isn't. Mine are, yours aren't.

SHAWN: Right.

RON: And that's the way it seems to be. People who don't understand homosexuality can condemn it and look down on it. And, of course, God condemns the behavior of homosexuality, too. But the same person may think it's just a very macho thing to be sleeping around with women, a man sleeping with women.

SHAWN: Of course.

RON: But it's still the same commandment and here we go back to the word, consistency. For us, as Christians, to be effective in our ministry to homosexuals, we need to first of all, I think, be able to define sin. If we are going to overcome the enemy, militarily speaking, we need to define the enemy. We need to know who he is. We need to know what we are up against. And so we need to define sin and there is one definition in the Bible. "Sin is the transgression of the law."

SHAWN: Right. 1 John three, verse 4.

RON: That's right. And so someone comes to me and says that your life is a life of sin. Well, if I can very easily point to a commandment that they are breaking, then they have no credibility with me. If they are saying, "Well that commandment was nailed to the cross or the law was nailed to the cross," well then don't come to me and say I'm sinning, because sin is the transgression of the law that you say is nailed to the cross.

And so we have to have that kind of a point of reference and that is so important for someone like me to see that the Christian is speaking consistently and with authority. It must be based upon the Word of God.

And another thing that is so important, is there must be love and compassion and genuine interest in me as a person, as a sinner. That's the way Jesus was. He mingled with the outcasts.

SHAWN: Absolutely.

RON: He didn't condone what they were doing, He did not participate in what they were doing, but He loved them enough to touch them, to mingle with them, to socialize with them. But not in a sinful way.

SHAWN: Now that raises another good question. You pointed out a couple of things. One of them being one that many Christians don't understand. I think that is probably one of the biggest hang-ups Christians have. A son or a daughter reveals to them that they are involved in a gay lifestyle, or a good friend or a co-worker. And a lot of Christians say, I don't know how to deal with that. I don't understand it. I don't know how to relate to that.

And so the question I have for you is this, Ron. What do Christians do to reach out to homosexuals? How do you reach out in a way that expresses the love you were just talking about, but doesn't appear to be condoning a lifestyle?

RON: That is a very touchy issue, a very difficult thing to really nail down, I believe, with most Christians. I think what worked so well with me, with my family and friends, is they didn't make me feel like an outcast. They loved me. They visited with me. They stayed in my home when they came across the country to visit me here in Southern California. They loved my friends. And they showed them that unconditional love and acceptance, though it was very clear that they did not condone our lifestyle.

And so I think, as Christians, we really have to focus on how Jesus met the sinner. He was not afraid to touch the leper. He would not be afraid to put His hand upon someone with AIDS and pray for that person. The homosexual tends to feel totally ostracized many times. And we need to just relate to that. Don't make them feel like they are a leprous kind of sinner, because biblically, homosexuality is no more of an abomination than any other kind of adultery or pride or lying or many other kinds of sins.

SHAWN: Listen, I think some of the issues, some of the fear in the church, again, has to do with a lack of understanding. Ron, previously, you shared with me a very interesting concept and it has to do with this word, orientation. I hear that word a lot on the news. We don?t want to discriminate because of orientation. It's a buzzword in the legal debate that is raging right now. Share with the viewers today what your perspective is on orientation.

RON: Well, I do get a little criticism because of my take on orientation. But I have looked up the word in the dictionary and I also relate to my own experience. In my youth, I was a pilot for a while. Then I was a hang glider pilot here in Southern California for eight years. And I base orientation upon a compass and direction. And too often the word orientation is used for the nature of someone's temptations. And I can understand that.

But, from a biblical perspective, when you are born again, when you are choosing a new life, your orientation is the direction you now set for yourself. You know where you are, you know where you have been. And you know where you are going. And by God's grace you aim yourself in that direction and He makes sure you get there.

You know, as a pilot, I flew in cross winds and head winds and in violent storms, but I always reached my destination. Because I did not let the wind determine my orientation. Neither should we, as Christians, allow the temptations of Satan to define our orientation. That is His plan for my life and for your life.

And so I use the term orientation to define the direction I have chosen, because God has given us that marvelous gift of the power of choice. And He promises that His grace is sufficient.

So that is the way I use orientation. It doesn't mean that we are without temptation ever.

SHAWN: Right.

RON: But it means that we have charted a course and by God's grace we're going to meet our destination.

SHAWN: We'll land that plane on the runway, even if the wind is blowing crosswise.

RON: That's right.

SHAWN: It sounds to me, though, that that perspective applies to more than the homosexual debate.

I mean if my temptation is alcohol or someone today who is watching has a temptation with pornography or something else, it's the same thing. Those are the winds. But your orientation can be different than the wind.

RON: Yes, and people are using the phrase sexual orientation to put forth the idea that this is something unchangeable. Recently, a very popular social columnist suggested that we not refer to homosexuality as a sexual preference, but a sexual orientation. And I'm thinking, why? Why can't we say preference?

If we choose to stay there, it is our preference. When God has provided a way out, if we choose to stay there, it is a preference. Yes, it is an orientation and a preference. And I believe we need to be very clear that it is something that can be overcome just like any other sin. Otherwise, God is impotent rather than omnipotent and we Christians don't dare go there.

SHAWN: Right. Ron, what is the Christian church's responsibility to the gay community?

RON: I think the Christian church needs to be, as I said earlier, consistent. I think the Christian church needs to be able to quote from the Bible the definition of sin so that it is clear that they understand what sin is. And once they accept the Bible definition of sin, then they need to be able to call sin by its right name.

Jesus was not timid about calling sin by its right name. But no one could ever accuse Him of not doing it with tears in His voice, with love in His heart. If someone is about to die in a burning building, drastic measures sometimes need to be taken, and force sometimes needs to be used to get someone out. I'm not suggesting that the church use force, but I am saying forceful language. But it can be done in love and compassion. And we need to make sure that we mingle our clear message and our authoritative message with love and compassion.

We need to realize there is power in the Word. Otherwise we, as a church, are demonstrating a form of godliness, denying the power thereof.

When someone like me is looking for sanctuary and for healing, we don't mind our toes being stepped on. When I went to church, I didn't want a weak watered-down message attempting to make me feel good. I did not mind. I was looking for something very strong, but very clear. I wanted it to be black and white so that I could really grab onto something. I didn?t want my experience to be an exercise in futility.

SHAWN: And that's very interesting to me. So often, as Christians, we shy away

from issues, I think largely because of the way SOME Christians have preached the issues. I have heard people say, "Well, God hates homosexuals." Or, I hear a lot of people talking about, "You're lost, you're lost," and you get the impression God wants you that way. But there is a way to tell the truth and do it with tears in your voice and tears in your eyes, the way Jesus did, just as you have said.

And it's interesting to me that you wanted to hear. I think when the Holy Spirit is working on somebody's heart, they do want to hear the truth. I don't think there is any question about it.

RON: Yes, and when you look in the Bible to Genesis 3:15, that is where the very first promise of the plan of salvation is actually made to Satan. I think that's very interesting. He says, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed." Just stopping right there. Basically, what Jesus is saying is that I will create in the hearts of my people a hatred for Satan, a hatred for sin, a hatred for evil. Now, if the Holy Spirit is working that out in my life and I despise my life of self-destruction and degradation, I don't want to go to a church and hear that you will be sinning until Jesus comes again. That leaves me feeling helpless and hopeless.

I now have this repulsion for what I am doing. I want a new life and from the pulpit, I'm being told that's impossible. And we Christians have to be able to respond to this need in the heart of the homosexual and any other sinner, this need and desire for change and for recreation, for re-conditioning, for newness of life.

SHAWN: One of the hottest subjects being debated right now is whether or not there ought to be an amendment to the constitution permanently entrenching marriage as an institution between a man and a woman. As someone who was in the gay community who's now a Christian minister, I'd be interested in your thoughts on that amendment. I have heard debates within the church on both sides.

RON: Well, I think the theory is, that we would be legislating morality and that is not the case. Many of our civil laws are based upon the moral law of God's ten commandments. "Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill." It used to be, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." I don't know if that one has fallen by the wayside now. But there are stiff penalties for people breaking these laws that are based upon morality established by God Himself.

Now to legislate protection of morality cannot be wrong. It is not legislating morality, it's legislating protection of morality. And if we do not protect this institution of marriage, that is so many millennia old, what then happens if we legalize the marriage of homosexuals? And how do we stop? I mean once the floodgate is open, how do we stop the legalization of immorality? What about polygamy? What about incest?

SHAWN: Right.

RON: What about pedophilia? Sins that we find disgusting. But, you know, someone else doesn't. Well, I think we as Christians have an obligation to vote in favor of protecting morality. That is why I would be in favor of that kind of amendment. It is not taking anything from anybody.

SHAWN: Right.

RON: But it is protecting this sacred institution and traditional civil institution.

SHAWN: Ron, let's move into a little bit more of a personal perspective. We have talked about the church at large relating to the gay community, relating to government and politics and I wish we had so much more time for these subjects today and we just don't. But I really want to get to a personal level. Somebody watching today, some family has just found out that a son or a daughter is involved in the gay lifestyle or someone has just come out of the closet. I guess the questions are, What does a parent do when they find out? When your family first found out what was happening, what do you wish they had said? What does a parent do? What is the wisest step to take? And I know those are almost impossible to answer, but a lot of people are going through it, right now at this moment and that's why I'm asking you.

RON: That is such a tough question because, again, I just think back on my own experience and I ask, what in the world could anyone have done for me? And everyone that tried, failed. And they made terrible mistakes. I don't know that I was approachable, frankly. By the time I came to the point where I was overt in my behavior, it was too late. If there was anything that could have been done ahead of time, I don?t really know because I was so private and secretive that no one knew I had a struggle. It came as a total shock and surprise to my family. And I remember that my parents went to great lengths, they blamed themselves, they blamed other people, they begged me, they pleaded with me, they cried, they sent preachers, all things that were uninvited.

And I think I have to say that you can only go as far as you are welcome. Make sure your doors are open. Do not condemn the child or the young adult or whoever. Do not condemn. Show them that unconditional love. Show them that acceptance. Let them know that you don't agree. But don't recoil in horror. Don't try to send them to a doctor. Just pray without ceasing. That's another thing. Two things that I think worked with my parents toward me, they loved me unconditionally and accepted me, although they didn't condone my sin and they prayed. They interceded that the Lord would do whatever it took to open my heart to bring me to a position to get my attention.

SHAWN: Right.

RON: And they committed me to the Lord.

SHAWN: Ron, I think that's good advice for all of us. So often, we want to reach in and fix people or fix things without people choosing. And God Himself doesn't force people to turn to Him.

RON: Right, He cannot fix.

SHAWN: He loves them, He appeals, but He never forces. If there was one thing that you would say to every Christian watching today, relating to the gay community, just one way to wrap it up, a phrase or two, what would it be?

RON: Well, I'll try to do two things real quickly. Jeremiah three, God Himself is limited in this area, until we ask. He says, "Only acknowledge thine iniquity and I will heal your backsliding."

So we have to be able to acknowledge our iniquity. But, we as Christians need to believe and practice that our God is mighty to save the whosoevers from whatsoever, even to the uttermost. If we believe it, then we are consistent in our belief system.

SHAWN: Ron, thank you for joining me today. I value your friendship and I value you as a brother in the Lord.

You know, as I read the Bible, I see that God has called us to be light in a dark world. Jesus called us the "salt of the earth." And that means that we're here to do something special. When all the world is mixed up in its belief system and we begin to place value on the wrong things, it's important for Christians to be a light, not only of truth, but also of God's love.

Today, I would like to emphasize that I believe God is doing something very special in the homosexual community, and I know a lot of you watching today are struggling with this issue in one way or another. Either you're struggling with unwanted feelings, or you are struggling because someone you know and love is caught up in a destructive lifestyle.

I am praying that God would give us the wisdom and the love to reach out to people in a community that we have really failed to reach up till now. And Ron, I'd appreciate it if maybe we could pray together. And let's pray for Christians today who are struggling with this in their own lives or in their family. Would you pray with me?

PRAYER:

Our Father in Heaven, again we come to you with grateful hearts for your marvelous plan of salvation, that you love the sinner, though you hate the sin. And I pray that you'll help us as Christians to truly be consistent in our belief and to truly trust that you have the power to change the unchangeable. And as we can accept this and believe it and practice is belief in our lives, we will be more effective in reaching out to those who think of themselves as helpless and hopeless. So supply us with this grace we pray. In Jesus' name, amen.

*For more information on this topic, please visit www.victorjadamson.com

Purchase his book in English or Spanish .

Purchase the ?Compassion Without Compromise? DVD.

Scriptures Used in “Compassion Without Compromise”

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

—Genesis 3:15 (KJV)

"Return, faithless people; I will cure you of backsliding.”

“Yes, we will come to you, for you are the LORD our God."

—Jeremiah 3:22 (NIV)

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

If it is an orientation it is not a choice.

According to Pastor Ron's perspective, gay people can choose their orientation. He compares it to a pilot flying a plane. The pilot cannot control the cross winds (or homosexual temptations) but he can control the orientation of the plane (the direction he is flying).

[John317]

The fulndamental question in this is: Is homosexuality an orientation, or a behavior.

If it is a behavior it may be a choice.

If it is an orientation it is not a choice.

People who discuss homosecuality often come from differing perspectives on this.

I come from a perspective that it is an orintation. I have worked closely with homosexuals. The people whom I worked with did not have a choice as to their homosexuality. They did have a choice as to their behavior.

I agree generally with the above. You are describing people who practiced homosexuality as a lifestyle. I believe in many cases it is more than an orientation. It is often a matter of the brain having been feminized during its development by being washed by female hormones rather than by the male hormones. These have no choice over whether they are "gay." I believe I'm one of those.

But it should be understood, as you mentioned, that there are also many people involved in various degrees of homosexual behavior out of choice. There are people who may be considered "bisexual" who first experience sex with a male during their thirties or even forties. It is sometimes a matter of convenience. Some men get involved in sex with another male out of boredom with "straight sex." Only in the judgment will it be seen how many "straight" men had occasional sex with another male. I was very promiscuous for many years in the streets of various American cities, from Los Angeles to New Orleans to Seattle. Most of of the men I "met" were married to women. They obviously can choose whether to behave in that way.

But I can choose too. God restores that power of choice to me through the Holy Spirit. I could choose any night or day to go back to that behavior. There was a time only a few years ago when it was not a choice. I was compelled to do it. I could not help myself. My desires and needs were overwhelming. That is no longer the case after totally surrendering myself to Christ, giving Him that part of my life, and asking Him to give me His Spirit. It takes constant vigilance and continual submission to God's will through prayer, Bible study, and witnessing. In time God even "heals" the brain so that we can re-orient ourselves, but this can take a very long process. The bottom line is: DON'T GIVE UP-- KEEP PRAYING AND KEEP SEEKING. GOD WILL DO IT-- HE WILL KEEP HIS PROMISES. JUST KEEP YOUR HAND IN HIS. GOD STILL IS A GOD OF MIRACLES.

Regards,

"John 3: 16"

[Gregory Matthews]

I will suggest that both Ron and Shane have made important points.

The difference between "orientaion" and "behavior" is critically important in this discussion. Some will claim that orientaion is firmly fixed, as I claim, and can not be changed. Others, will claim that it can be changed.

Thsoe who advocate that it can be changaed typically take the position that a change in behavior is a change in orientaion.

Those who claim that orientation cannot be changed may be willing to acknowledge that behavior can be changed, as I believe. But, while that behavior can be changed, the underlying sexual attraction to a person of the same sex remains.

This issue is further often confused by the fact that sexuality is not limited to two groups--homosexuals, and heterosexuals. There are clearly other groups. According to the defination that I have accepted, bisexuals are not homosexual. They are bisexual. Therefore, when I state that I do not believe that homoxexual orientation has been demonstrated to be changable, I am not making a statement regarding bisexuals. In addition, I am not making any statement about any other class of sexuality in a statement on homosexuality.

Quote:

And so I use the term orientation to define the direction I have chosen, because God has given us that marvelous gift of the power of choice. And He promises that His grace is sufficient.

So that is the way I use orientation. It doesn't mean that we are without temptation ever.

SHAWN: Right.

RON: But it means that we have charted a course and by God's grace we're going to meet our destination.

SHAWN: We'll land that plane on the runway, even if the wind is blowing crosswise.

RON: That's right.

SHAWN: It sounds to me, though, that that perspective applies to more than the homosexual debate.

I mean if my temptation is alcohol or someone today who is watching has a temptation with pornography or something else, it's the same thing. Those are the winds. But your orientation can be different than the wind.

RON: Yes, and people are using the phrase sexual orientation to put forth the idea that this is something unchangeable. Recently, a very popular social columnist suggested that we not refer to homosexuality as a sexual preference, but a sexual orientation. And I'm thinking, why? Why can't we say preference?

If we choose to stay there, it is our preference. When God has provided a way out, if we choose to stay there, it is a preference. Yes, it is an orientation and a preference. And I believe we need to be very clear that it is something that can be overcome just like any other sin. Otherwise, God is impotent rather than omnipotent and we Christians don't dare go there.

In the above quotation, Ron is using the word "orientation" to indicate direction. In other words, as applied to homosexuality, Ron is telling us that while the attraction remains to a same sex partner, one can chose to not act on that attraction, and to express ones sexuality toward a sexual partner of the opposite sex. It is fine for Ron to do that. He clearly informs us of how he is using the word "orientation." He is clearly using "orientation" in a manner that I would call behavior.

Shane has responsded as follows:

Quote:

According to Pastor Ron's perspective, gay people can choose their orientation. He compares it to a pilot flying a plane. The pilot cannot control the cross winds (or homosexual temptations) but he can control the orientation of the plane (the direction he is flying).

I will suggest tha Shane has expressed this idea well. Behavior is implied here, and not orientation in the sense that I use that word.

[Gregory Matthews]

John has made several important and vaulable points.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ron raises another important issues inthe followsing quotation:

Quote:

And I believe we need to be very clear that it is something that can be overcome just like any other sin. Otherwise, God is impotent rather than omnipotent and we Christians don't dare go there.

Is God impotent?

Does God have an answer for every aspect of the sin problem?

Folks, those qeustions are critical.

I will suggest that God is not impotent, and that God has an anser to every aspect of the sin problem.

I will also suggest that it is clearly revealed that the plan of salvation provides fixes for the sin problem both in the present and in eternity. As I view life, some of those fixes will only be accomplished in eternity.

I see every day individuals who facae the challenges of severe mental illness. I work with an individual who is developmentally disabled. His intellectual capacity is less that of the average employee. Human science has brought him to the place where is is able to be employeed, but his potential is limited. It is only in eternity that he will be able to realize the full potential that Gkod ahs wanted for him.

I am in regual contact with people with Tardive dyskinesia,Tourette's disorder, bipolar, and more. Modern medicine has done much to help these people to control their behavior, and to live in society. But, a full restoration of these people to God's ideal remains in the eternal future.

God is not impotent. But, God's plan is comprehensive, and only palrtially accomplished in the present. In part it is accomplished in the future.

[Dr. Shane]

Just as a note, I am not advocating either position regarding orientation. I have respect for both positions. I was just making the point that there is more than one perspective within our church.

[cardw]

What is interesting to me is that no one seems to know what is actually so harmful about practicing homosexuality. I see no additional pitfalls other than what heterosexual relationships deal with.

[John317]

...God is not impotent. But, God's plan is comprehensive, and only palrtially accomplished in the present. In part it is accomplished in the future.

I think this is a very important, excellent point. God takes into account the person's commitment, willingness and desire to obey Him. Only God knows if we're sincere and honest with Him, but provided we're truly seeking to do His will, we can know for a certainty that He is there to forgive and provide power to overcome. He is in the struggle with us, not against us.

[John317]

What is interesting to me is that no one seems to know what is actually so harmful about practicing homosexuality. I see no additional pitfalls other than what heterosexual relationships deal with.

Very good question, and one I have given a lot of thought to over the years. I asked myself that same question many times, and for a long time I excused myself from following the Bible on this issue because I didn't know of a satisfactory answer.

But before I give you the answer I arrived at, let me please ask you a couple of related questions: The Bible says that it is wrong for a man to sleep with a woman he is not married to. It also says it is wrong for a woman to have sex with an animal. What is wrong with these things? What is so harmful about any of these practices?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[cardw]

Quote:

But before I give you the answer I arrived at, let me please ask you a couple of related questions: The Bible says that it is wrong for a man to sleep with a woman he is not married to. It also says it is wrong for a woman to have sex with an animal. What is wrong with these things? What is so harmful about any of these practices?

Well, I would say that many people have survived these activities with no apparent harm. And it would depend on how you see the consciousness of animals.

The only harm I see coming from these activities is shame and disease. And as far as I can tell shame is based on one's beliefs around sex. I would say that if you think its wrong then don't do it. And in practical terms the risk of disease would require a weighing of the risk versus benefit. And in that case it becomes a matter of poor choices, not morality. Because morality implies some greater harm beyond the results of cause and effect.

To me, the function of ethics is to reduce suffering. We have brains, so it seems that there ought to be a multitude of approaches to this. In terms of homosexuality I think it becomes an individual solution. I think we all need intimacy and each person is going to find connections in different ways.

For me personally, homosexual behavior is not something I could even fathom having a desire for. I am reasonably certain that would not be a way I would seek to find any type of excitement or connection. But I know what it is like to desire the intimate connection with a woman. And I only want to connect with one woman at a time and preferably the same one for a lifetime. That is the ideal that I feel naturally. I don't have to come up with that.

Now I believe that many homosexual people have that same desire for the same sex. You have mentioned some variations, I can't confirm or deny the truth of that, but I do know a number of homosexual couples that have spent their lifetimes together and seem reasonably happy. There is no hint of abomination in those relationships that I can tell. It seems to be a practical solution to what they have to deal with. Their relationship allows them to be productive members of their society.

It doesn't seem to make sense, after all we know about development and the nature of the brain, that anatomy should be to sole determination of sexual orientation. Just as Iron age ethics doesn't work with slavery, women's rights, and human rights, it probably is not the best source of solutions for sexual orientation.

[Dr. Shane]

I think a lot of people that want to defend homosexuality simply have mistaken sympathy. They really don't understand homosexuality. They have never lived in the lifestyle and while some have friends or a family member that is gay, they don't live with the friend or family member.

I am not gay and have never been attracted to the same sex. However while in college I had two roommates, on two different occasions, that were gay. I attended parties with them. Both were members of AA, so I attended meetings with them. I knew their friends and some of their lovers. And yes, both of them even asked me to have sex with them - I had no interest at all but was not offended by their offer. After I returned to the church, I found out about Exodus International while watching the 700 Club. I contacted them and started a gay outreach ministry on my college campus. One of my former roommates actually decided to leave the lifestyle.

The homosexual lifestyle is a self-destructive lifestyle. There are a lot of emotional issues involved. It is a lot like compulsive/obsessive disorders. Very very few homosexuals seek to have a sexual relationship with another person of the same sex that is like the heterosexual model of monogamous marriage - to death do us part. Many that are sympathetic to gays make the mistake of thinking that gays want what heterosexuals want. The compassionate approach to homosexuals is to show them that God has something better for them.

I must add, that many that are not sympathetic to gays are not helpful either. We should be sympathetic to gays and all classes of sinners. For the most part, gays are only hurting themselves. Of course, when they marry and than fail to be faithful, they hurt their spouses and children.

[cardw]

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The homosexual lifestyle is a self-destructive lifestyle. There are a lot of emotional issues involved. It is a lot like compulsive/obsessive disorders. Very very few homosexuals seek to have a sexual relationship with another person of the same sex that is like the heterosexual model of monogamous marriage - to death do us part. Many that are sympathetic to gays make the mistake of thinking that gays want what heterosexuals want.

There is a heterosexual lifestyle that is very similar. Its the lifestyle, not the orientation. And very few heterosexuals get married as virgins. The difference is that marriage is supported by the culture. So of course you aren't going to see as many gay marriages. For many people in our culture there is no such thing as gay marriage.

If some homosexuals didn't want these types of monogamous relationships, you wouldn't see the desire to have marriages. And since this idea has very little support outside of gay culture, the prevailing motion is fighting for the failure of gay relationships.

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The compassionate approach to homosexuals is to show them that God has something better for them.

I'm not sure this is born out by the evidence. Most Christian gay recovery ministries have been absolute failures. And it depends on what you mean by better.

[olger]

Hello Richard:

One doesn't have to believe in the Law of God to suffer the consequences of violating it.

oG

[cardw]

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One doesn't have to believe in the Law of God to suffer the consequences of violating it.

One doesn't have to believe in any law to suffer the consequences of violating it if it is a real law. Many laws that I read in the Bible aren't real laws.

But one can certainly suffer as acutely from imaginary laws as from real laws. I think Jesus referenced this when he talked of the heavy burdens the leaders of Israel placed on the people with their detailed and exacting laws.

I think this quote by George Smith is appropriate...

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In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince men that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, man is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.

And from Thomas Jefferson

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He is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.

[Dr. Shane]

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If some homosexuals didn't want these types of monogamous relationships, you wouldn't see the desire to have marriages.

Homosexuals want gay marriage so they can get the legal benefits of marriage. They want health benefits, Social Security benefits, tax benefits and immigration benefits. Few homosexuals actually want to limit themselves to having sex with just one other person although that type of thinking is much more common among lesbians than gay men.

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Most Christian gay recovery ministries have been absolute failures.

The same can be said of Alcoholics Anonymous. The percentage of alcoholics that actually stay sober for more than two years due to attendance of AA members is very small. Less than 10% of those that attend an AA meeting will die sober. Yet in 1986 the Nobel Peace Prize committee had planned to bestow its award to AA but decided not to offer it when they discovered AA World Services would neither accept nor decline it as they have no opinion on outside issues and the Nobel Peace Prize is definitely an outside issue.

Homosexuality and alcoholism are both difficult issues and hard to break away from. The sad fact is that most people that try to do so, fail. Yet those of us in the church should not fail them.

[cardw]

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Homosexuals want gay marriage so they can get the legal benefits of marriage. They want health benefits, Social Security benefits, tax benefits and immigration benefits. Few homosexuals actually want to limit themselves to having sex with just one other person although that type of thinking is much more common among lesbians than gay men.

This is such broad generalization with no evidence what so ever. This is why your views are so offensive. You basically are claiming to be able to read the motives and minds of all gay people.

If only one couple would desire marriage for monogamy then your following argument regarding AA would provide a basis for support.

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Homosexuality and alcoholism are both difficult issues and hard to break away from. The sad fact is that most people that try to do so, fail. Yet those of us in the church should not fail them.

You are assuming that homosexuality is an addiction. Sex can be an addiction but orientation is not an addiction, its a biological determination. This does have quite a bit of evidence, unlike your assertion that its an addiction.

[Dr. Shane]

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You basically are claiming to be able to read the motives and minds of all gay people.

No. I can read the newspaper. They are pretty clear about what they want and why they want it. No mind reading required.

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You are assuming that homosexuality is an addiction.

I am sharing my own experience of having lived with two gay men and then three years of ministry to gay people. No assumptions being made, just experience being shared.

[Dr. Shane]

Just a little trivia...

the very first "gay marriage" performed in the US was by a man that married his gay lover so the lover would not be deported by INS.

[cardw]

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No. I can read the newspaper. They are pretty clear about what they want and why they want it. No mind reading required.

And you consider the newspaper a reliable source of what all gay people want? Well, I guess I shouldn't be that surprised since you consider the 700 club an authority on human sexuality.

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I am sharing my own experience of having lived with two gay men and then three years of ministry to gay people. No assumptions being made, just experience being shared.

So based on your experience with two gay men you have determined that they had a homosexual addiction versus simply a sex addiction. This is simply poor reasoning. You are making an assumption based on two men and the newspaper. This is lazy thinking and I'm being generous with the thinking part. Its better to say you don't know.

Let me ask you this. How would you determine if they were addicted to homosexuality or if they were addicted to sex?

[cardw]

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the very first "gay marriage" performed in the US was by a man that married his gay lover so the lover would not be deported by INS.

So, based on this you are implying that all gay marriage is for secondary gain? People have heterosexual marriages in far larger numbers to keep from being deported than gay marriages. Are we to conclude that all heterosexual marriages are for secondary reasons?

You simply rely on slander and exaggeration. This is a highly dishonest way to dialog.

[Dr. Shane]

I learned about Exodus International through the 700 Club and consider Exodus International to be an authority on the subject of homosexuality. My experience includes living with two gay men and being part of their lives, their friends, social functions and AA groups. It also includes working with Exodus International for three years and ministering with a number of gays. While John 317 and Parade Orange certainly have much more experience with the gay community than I do, my experience is more than most people involved on this board by far.

[cardw]

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I learned about Exodus International through the 700 Club and consider Exodus International to be an authority on the subject of homosexuality. My experience includes living with two gay men and being part of their lives, their friends, social functions and AA groups. It also includes working with Exodus International for three years and ministering with a number of gays. While John 317 and Parade Orange certainly have much more experience with the gay community than I do, my experience is more than most people involved on this board by far.

This still does not qualify you to make broad and general statements about these people. You have no idea about anyone's motivations. Here are some extensive articles on this topic...

Intelligence Report from Southern Poverty Law Center

And this excerpt explains how Exodus International's own studies refute their own claims...

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To back up their claims that homosexuality is purely a deviant lifestyle choice, ex-gay leaders frequently cite the Thomas Project, a four-year study of ex-gay programs, paid for by Exodus, that recruited subjects exclusively from Exodus ministries. It was conducted by Mark Yarhouse, a psychology professor at Pat Robertson's Regents University, and Stanton Jones, provost of Wheaton College, an evangelical institution in Illinois. Both are members of NARTH. The study was conducted through face-to-face and some phone interviews conducted annually over the course of four years. Results were published this September.

Of nearly 100 people surveyed, only 11% reported a move towards heterosexuality. But no one in the study reports becoming fully heterosexual; according to the study's authors, even the 11% group "did not report themselves to be without experience of homosexual arousal, and did not report heterosexual orientation to be unequivocal and uncomplicated."

The researchers had originally hoped for 300 subjects but, according to an article in Christianity Today, "found many Exodus ministries mysteriously uncooperative." Over the course of the four-year study, a quarter of the participants dropped out. Their reasons for quitting were not tracked. Nevertheless, the study was hailed by Exodus, Focus on the Family and the Southern Baptist Convention as "scientific evidence to prove what we as former homosexuals have known all along — that those who struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction can experience freedom from it."

Even more remarkably, Focus on the Family cites a 67% success rate. It came up with that number by counting as "successes" subjects who practice chastity or were still engaged in homosexual acts or thoughts "but expressed commitment to continue" the therapy.

Exodus International is not a reliable authority even by their own studies. You are being duped. The 700 club and Focus on the Family are run by manipulation and the desire for power. Their extreme views on various issues are ways to raise money among the gullible. They exaggerate their opponents positions and rely on exaggeration to create controversy.

One simply has to listen to quotes from Pat Robertson lately to understand how nuts the leadership of the 700 club is. If you remember Ted Haggard was his spokesperson. This is the same gay bashing Ted Haggard who was taking drugs and visiting a male prostitute all the while being the head of the National Association of Evangelicals. This is a guy who graduated from Oral Roberts University (the same Oral Roberts that announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would "call him home" (a euphemism for death).) and had the audacity to claim that with three weeks of counseling he became completely heterosexual.

So if this group is your idea of best evidence then there is little hope of you understanding any rational view at all.

[Dr. Shane]

A lot of completely separate issues being mixed together there. Exodus International is hated by the Gay Rights community. The internet is full of attacks on them. I have labored with these people. I know them. I have witnessed their success in front of my eyes. I don't need a third party to tell me what I have personally experienced.

Quite frankly, if anyone in this thread is not qualified to talk about the subject, it is those that are not gay, have never lived with gay people, have never struggled with gay people and simply have sat on the sidelines playing the role of a couch quarterback.

I have put my love into action. I have not just set back and said this and that about gays and what they should and shouldn't do. I have gotten down into the trenches with them. I have prayed with them, studied with them, embraced them, let them cry on my shoulder. I have tried to love them as Christ loves them.

As I stated earlier, if Alcoholics Anonymous was held to the same standard that Gay Rights groups try to hold exit ministries to, AA would be an astonishing failure. The study cited above states that 11% moved toward heterosexuality. The first point here must be to point out the goal of exit ministries is not to turn homosexuals into heterosexuals. So if that is what is being used to measure the success of such ministries, the results are going to be flawed from the start. The second point is that A.A. has been shown to have similar rates of success thus placing the success rate of alcoholics and homosexuals at the same level. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.