Women in Ministry

[John317]

It has already been amply discussed as to the reasons it would not have been wise for Jesus to have a woman as part of the 12 traveling with him. This does not make him afraid of anything..it means he did care about not only his reputation but that of his disciples and hence he was careful to not put that reputation at stake. These kinds of logical conclusions don't seem to be noticed.

One problem with this explanation, as I see it, is the fact that Jesus did have many women traveling with him everywhere he went. I think both the gospels and the Spirit of prophecy speak to that point. At least some of these women were "with Him" in the same sense that Jesus' disciples were "with him." For instance, Luke 8: 1-3 says,

"1 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means."

There is evidence that some people thought badly of Jesus because Jesus allowed "sinful women" to be close to him, but there is no reason to think this kind of thinking caused him to change either his doctrines or his behavior towards the women.

If Jesus' wanting to protect the reputation of his disciples is a full explanation for His choosing only males as apostles and leaders of the church, how do we explain the continuation of that male-only paradigm of church leadership long after Jesus returned to heaven? In other words, how do we explain the fact that there is not a single instance in the NT of a woman serving as an elder or bishop or overseer?

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Also, if a woman isn't suppose to teach, or speak in church, and you are going to literally apply that to mean she can't be a pastor in a church then you must certainly continue to take it literally and realize the she could also never be an evangelist or teacher in any setting in a church becuase it says she is not supposed to. That is why one must look at the whole picture not just one view.

Paul is not saying that women may never speak or even teach under any circumstances in church. 1 Cor. 11: 5 makes it plain that women may pray and also prophesy in church. 1 Cor. 14: 34 does not contradict that. What Paul does not permit is for women "to teach or have authority over a man" (1 Tim. 2: 12).

In other words, Paul did not want women to take the positions of elder or overseer in the church. These alone had the authority and responsibility of teaching and ruling the NT church. The New Testament allows women to teach and speak but not to take the place of its bishops and elders. For instance, as pointed out before, Priscilla taught Apollos the gospel, but she and her husband did it privately. She did not teach the congregation when assembled as an elder or leader.

I'm going to be posting the rest of the verses in the NT related to church officers, and then we can examine in greater detail some of the questions you and others have raised about the relationship of any of those verses to women in ministry. It would also be very helpful to discuss what the Old Testament contributes to our understanding of women's role in the New Testament church.

Reply,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

I don't believe the Bible evidence has been seriously and thoroughly looked at on this thread.

{quote] The problem .... people resist what the Bible says in preference to the current political and societal pressures of CULTURE.

I am posting every NT verse on the subject of church officers and women's role in the church. If you know of a verse that I have neglected, please bring it to the table for discussion. Up to this point, I haven't seen you employ Biblical analysis but rather you continue to give us only your conclusions. For instance, please respond to these two points:

(1) If Jesus' wanting to protect the reputation of his disciples is a full explanation for His choosing only males as apostles and leaders of the church, how do we explain the continuation of that male-only paradigm of church leadership long after Jesus returned to heaven? In other words, how do we explain the fact that there is not a single instance in the NT of a woman serving as an elder or bishop or overseer?

(2) Paul is not saying that women may never speak or even teach under any circumstances in church. 1 Cor. 11: 5 makes it plain that women may pray and also prophesy in church. 1 Cor. 14: 34 does not contradict that. What Paul does not permit is for women "to teach or have authority over a man" (1 Tim. 2: 12).

In other words, Paul did not want women to take the positions of elder or overseer in the church. These alone had the authority and responsibility of teaching and ruling the NT church. The New Testament allows women to teach and speak but not to take the place of its bishops and elders. For instance, as pointed out before, Priscilla taught Apollos the gospel, but she and her husband did it privately. She did not teach the congregation when assembled as an elder or leader.

I'm not, as you say, "picking and choosing what parts of the Bible I want to use." On the contrary I am attempting to use every part of the Bible dealing with the subject. So far I have posted nearly every NT verse that mentions church officers, and I intend to finish those verses and after that to post verses dealing with women leadership in the OT. We have yet to analyze very many of them or to summarize their meaning and apply them to the modern church. We first have to understand what those verses say and mean for the NT church before we can apply them to the modern church. There's so much that this thread has either not touched on at all or has not dealt with completely.

I'm looking forward to your (or anyone else's) participation in the analysis of Bible texts on the topic.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Most of the discussions of the true Biblical application have been buried in this thread. Anyone interested can do a search. I would highly recommend paying close attending to the posts of Tom and Beryl. This is page 60. I suppose if we develop one page for each year that our church has studied the issue ... then we have about 100 more pages to go.

[Taylor]

John, if you were to take that literally that women can't teach men then there could never be men in a female teacher's SS class. IT isn't just the pastor that teaches and frankly I have never seen an elder teach unless you call "preaching = teaching".

[Taylor]

Also I sincerely doubt that when Jesus was traveling with his 12 disciples and the "women" that it was on trips when he slept in the open with his male disciples. That wouldn't have looked right...and always having to find lodging for his "female disciples" if there had been some, would have been difficult at best. I have no doubt some women followed him and helped in whatever way they could but they were not intimately with him 24 hours a day 7 days a week like his male disciples were as that wouldn't have been proper. He knew this and hence didn't have women disciples. Just commen sense.

[Woody]

Quote:

Just commen sense.

I agree with that thought Taylor ... especially since that phrase has become rather "common" recently around CA circles.

[John317]

John, if you were to take that literally that women can't teach men then there could never be men in a female teacher's SS class. IT isn't just the pastor that teaches and frankly I have never seen an elder teach unless you call "preaching = teaching".

The NT doesn't say that women can't teach men under any circumstances. For instance, Priscilla taught the gospel to Apollos.

Paul did not want women to take the positions of elder or overseer in the church. These alone had the authority and responsibility of teaching and ruling the NT church. The New Testament allows women to teach and speak but not to take the place of its bishops and elders. For instance, as pointed out before, Priscilla taught Apollos the gospel, but she and her husband did it privately. She did not teach the congregation when assembled as an elder or leader.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Also I sincerely doubt that when Jesus was traveling with his 12 disciples and the "women" that it was on trips when he slept in the open with his male disciples. That wouldn't have looked right...and always having to find lodging for his "female disciples" if there had been some, would have been difficult at best. I have no doubt some women followed him and helped in whatever way they could but they were not intimately with him 24 hours a day 7 days a week like his male disciples were as that wouldn't have been proper. He knew this and hence didn't have women disciples. Just commen sense.

For the sake of the discussion, let's say you are right about the reason that Jesus did not choose any females to be apostles. But then how do we explain the fact that in the entire NT, there is not a single instance of a female serving as an elder, bishop, or overseer? In other words, how do we explain the consistent pattern of male leadership throughout the Bible, in the OT priesthood, in the apostles, as well as in the NT church after Jesus' return to heaven?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Did you think the culture would suddenly change after thousands of years ... and without an effort from Jesus? NO.

Just as Jesus did not tackle the issue of slavery ... he did not tackle the discrimination of women.

However he did give living examples and speak in principles as does the rest of the Bible. So, the truth is there to be found.

[John317]

... I would highly recommend paying close attending to the posts of Tom and Beryl...

Tom, as you may recall, is the one who pointed to 1 Tim. 5: 2 as an example of proof that the NT church had female elders.

If this verse does not prove there were women elders in the NT church, what verse would you point to?

The only other verses that refer to women's role in the church are Romans 16: 1, 3; 1 Tim. 3: 11; and Titus 2: 3. Are there other verses you would add to this? What verses speak most strongly to you in regard to women serving as pastors or elders, etc.?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

John317 ... your focus is so narrow ... you can't see the broader picture.

[Woody]

For instance .... Do you believe in Pathfinders?

WHY?

I don't find Pathfinders in the Bible. How can you justify supporting such a program?

[John317]

Did you think the culture would suddenly change after thousands of years ... and without an effort from Jesus? NO.

Just as Jesus did not tackle the issue of slavery ... he did not tackle the discrimination of women.

However he did give living examples and speak in principles as does the rest of the Bible. So, the truth is there to be found.

It is not really true that Jesus did not tackle the problem of discrimination against women. Jesus did not discriminate against them, and he was not afraid of going against society's practices when he did not agree with them. Many examples could be given to show that Jesus' treatment of women went against the expectations and norms of his society. Surely if Jesus had believed it was God's will to choose women as apostles, Jesus would have done so.

It has yet to be shown that the reason God did not choose women to be priests or apostles or elders and bishops was due to the culture. Where does the Bible give evidence of such an idea?

Also you appear to be conceding the fact that the NT itself does not contain any verses in which women are described as elders or bishops, or overseers.

I agree with that, but I am unconvinced that it was due to cultural concerns.

When we compare everything that Paul said with everything that Jesus said and did in relationship to women being leaders in the church, what is the single, strongest Bible evidence that God wants women to be elders and pastors in the SDA church?

Reply,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

For instance .... Do you believe in Pathfinders?

WHY?

I don't find Pathfinders in the Bible. How can you justify supporting such a program?

Do Pathfinders contradict anything in the Bible? Does Scripture, or any practice or any teaching in the Bible, show Pathfinders to be in any way wrong?

I would say no. If you agree with me, then it's difficult to see the relevancy of your question about Pathfinders.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

John317 ... your focus is so narrow ... you can't see the broader picture.

Please give an example of how I am not seeing the broader picture. I hope your mention of Pathfinders isn't one of them.

Unless something is opposed to a Bible doctrine or teaching, I don't see how anyone can use Bible grounds to be against it. The whole question here is whether the Bible supports women being elders or overseers or pastors. So far, I have seen some reasons given, but they're usually not Biblically sound reasons. The general idea of "progress," for example, is not a Biblical reason for supporting women as elders or pastors. That is a concept of society. Many things that a society might judge to be "progress," the Bible itself condemns. For instance, much of society says it is "progress" to leave the idea of God behind. Much of society also says it is "progress" to allow the sexes to marry members of their own sex. Much of society actually encourages people to commit all kinds of things the Bible says are sinful, and so society has shown that it is not a dependable way for Bible-believing Christians to measure right and wrong.

When we use the idea of social progress as the support of women being elders and pastors, it must be understood that we are going outside the Bible for our support. Support for it must be found within the Bible, as it must be for all of the practices and teachings of our church. It must be shown, at the very least, that it does not contradict the teachings of the NT.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[olger]

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It is not really true that Jesus did not tackle the problem of discrimination against women. Jesus did not discriminate against them, and he was not afraid of going against society's practices when he did not agree with them.

It must first be shown that the reason God did not choose women to be priests or apostles or elders and bishops was due to the culture.

This hits the theological nail on the head. The exegetical sticking point for a liberal thought captive is that the Bible itself pays homage to cultural rubbish, as if God cares. It is HE who says in John "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world..." The word for world "kosmos" easily includes the culture (as its 'adorning'). The world and its culture is passing away, but the Bible is anchored on principles.

oG

[Woody]

Quote:

When we compare everything that Paul said with everything that Jesus said and did in relationship to women being leaders in the church, what is the single, strongest Bible evidence that God wants women to be elders and pastors in the SDA church.

For one thing ... our church will not fail. And the church has very clearly stated that God does want women as elders and pastors in the SDA church. If you are a member of this church ... then you need to abide by the decisions of this church. I don't see the church failing on such an important issue as this. I give it my 100% support in it's decision.

I also agree with the church that the Bible is clear on the issue. I can see that you want a thus says the Lord. Well he clearly has said so in my mind and the mind of the church body. I am sorry that you are not able to see it.

[John317]

Quote:

When we compare everything that Paul said with everything that Jesus said and did in relationship to women being leaders in the church, what is the single, strongest Bible evidence that God wants women to be elders and pastors in the SDA church.

For one thing ... our church will not fail. And the church has very clearly stated that God does want women as elders and pastors in the SDA church. If you are a member of this church ... then you need to abide by the decisions of this church.

As far as I've been able to determine, the church in General Conferences has rejected by an overwhelming vote the practice of women being made pastors of local churches. There are some conferences, including Southeastern Ca., that have refused to abide by that decision. I think the conferences made a mistake to ignore the vote of the General Conference. We all ought to move on this together, not one conference doing one thing and some another.

As I've said before, it's not that I am opposed to women being elders and pastors. It's that I want to be sure that we have Bible grounds for doing it. I am afraid when I hear people basically pushing the Bible aside and saying it doesn't matter what the Bible says about it.

If the church in General Conference voted for it, I am sure it would give Bible reasons for its actions, and not simply say it is a decision based on social progress. Social progress is a reason people give for acceptance of evolution, for acceptance of Sunday in the place of the Sabbath, and for acceptance of gays as ministers.

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...I also agree with the church that the Bible is clear on the issue.

Has the SDA world church in General Conference ever stated either by vote or by its representative published articles that the Bible clearly supports women being pastors?

If the SDA church in General Conference ever does vote for women to be made pastors in all the world conferences, I would need to see its explanation of why it voted that way. If I were convinced of the truth of its statement, I would support it.

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I can see that you want a thus says the Lord. Well he clearly has said so in my mind and the mind of the church body. I am sorry that you are not able to see it.

I have heard many people argue the same way about their belief in Sunday and in the immortality of the soul. Although they can't point to any particular Bible verses that support their beliefs, they say God has made it clear to their minds. God does not go against what He inspired Paul and other apostles and prophets to write.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Taylor]

Please John, please understand this point. The GC is not opposed to women being pastors. There are pastors in just about every conference (and several in most conferences) in the USA,and in other countries as well, not just in Southesatern California conference. The only problem the GC has with women pastors is with the divisive issue of "ordination". One can be a pastor for many years...or a lifetime without ordination.

[John317]

Quote:

It is not really true that Jesus did not tackle the problem of discrimination against women. Jesus did not discriminate against them, and he was not afraid of going against society's practices when he did not agree with them.

It must first be shown that the reason God did not choose women to be priests or apostles or elders and bishops was due to the culture.

This hits the theological nail on the head. The exegetical sticking point for a liberal thought captive is that the Bible itself pays homage to cultural rubbish, as if God cares. It is HE who says in John "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world..." The word for world "kosmos" easily includes the culture (as its 'adorning'). The world and its culture is passing away, but the Bible is anchored on principles. oG

I agree with you that God doesn't care what the world thinks is right or wrong, or what is popular or unpopular. And it is interesting that nowhere in Paul's instructions in either 1 Cor. or 1 Timothy does Paul point to culture or the world's practices as the reason he says what he does. Instead he points to "the law" and to the Bible, specifically stating that they are "the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor. 14: 37). Perhaps someone would like to discuss this point and show how it means the church today ought to ignore Paul's instructions in verses 33 and 34.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

Has the SDA world church in General Conference ever stated either by vote or by its representative published articles that the Bible clearly supports women being pastors?

If the SDA church in General Conference ever does vote for women to be made pastors in all the world conferences, I would need to see its explanation of why it voted that way. If I were convinced of the truth of its statement, I would support it.

YES. The church has decided this issue and I have quoted the actions several times on several topical forums. Each and every time ... there has been silence from your corner. I've asked you to respond and ... silence. Yet, you continue to come up with the same old misleading inferences. Please go back and read the decisions of the church body. The binding actions of the church should be clear on this.

[Taylor]

No one is ignoring the Bible John. Some of us see a beautiful coheisive support for women in ministry not only in the Bible but there are even EGW quotes to back that up. But then again, one can have their own understanding and that is ok, provided your are following the Lord's leading fully in your life. But please don't assume that the church or members of the church are ignoring Biblical counsel. I think that is God's job to decide. I don't dislike you John, but just be careful of such blanket statements.

[John317]

... There are pastors in just about every conference (and several in most conferences) in the USA,and in other countries as well, not just in Southesatern California conference.

Yes, I understand that.

I think there is strong reason to believe that was done before or without GC approval because it was understood that once women were made pastors in many places, it would be practically impossible to change it.

At first the women pastors were called "parish workers." The change was made very subtly. They're no longer called "parish workers."

I am not personally opposed to women working in all positions in the gospel ministry. I was a member and worshiped in a church for a long time where one of the first women "parish workers" worked, Margaret Hemp. The senior pastor was William Loveless and, later, Morris Venden. As I've said before, there are many kinds of ministries in which women are well suited to serve. In many of them I believe women are better suited for service than men are.

Quote:

The only problem the GC has with women pastors is with the divisive issue of "ordination". One can be a pastor for many years...or a lifetime without ordination.

What do you base this understanding on? Has the GC or any member of it said anything to indicate that this is the main reason for its vote?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

No one is ignoring the Bible John. Some of us see a beautiful coheisive support for women in ministry not only in the Bible but there are even EGW quotes to back that up. But then again, one can have their own understanding and that is ok, provided your are following the Lord's leading fully in your life. But please don't assume that the church or members of the church are ignoring Biblical counsel. I think that is God's job to decide. I don't dislike you John, but just be careful of such blanket statements.

What was this in response to? I went to the post it was supposed to be responding to, but I don't see anywhere where I said the SDA church is ignoring the Bible.

Perhaps you misunderstood the following statement:

"It is interesting that nowhere in Paul's instructions in either 1 Cor. or 1 Timothy does Paul point to culture or the world's practices as the reason he says what he does. Instead he points to 'the law' and to the Bible, specifically stating that they are 'the commandments of the Lord' (1 Cor. 14: 37). Perhaps someone would like to discuss this point and show how it means the church today ought to ignore Paul's instructions in verses 33 and 34."

If so, I am not saying the SDA world church is presently ignoring the 33rd and 34th verses. But I am saying that if our church eventually teaches and practices contrary to Paul's instructions here, then it would be essentially saying that those verses can be ignored. In other words, we would then be saying that they don't apply to the modern church and that we don't need to follow those instructions.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

John ... this world-wide church has voted to not discriminate against women in the positions of the church. It has specifically voted to allow women pastors and elders world-wide. It is your privilege to disagree with the decisions of my church. But I do wish that you would not infer that it is going against the Bible in it's decisions. You are not the only one that has opinions and interpretations. I would hope that you allow for sincere and honest differences when the church sees things differently from you personally.