Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: God loves and accepts gays and lesbians as they are This statement ... I wholely and warm heartedly agree with. God loves ALL sinners who are IN their sinful condition. We are ALL in a dreadful condition. Homosexuality is not King. ALL sin is equal ... it is SIN. ANY sin can cause you to lose your salvation. ONE sin keeps you away from God. We must have perfection in order to have our lives Saved from Hell. There is only one person who meets this criteria. He alone can save us. So, do you believe that Christ accepts you as you are and that He gives you the Robe to cover your sins? He does this for all ... even the homosexuals. No difference. He desires that ALL would come into the joy of life IN Him. But he takes and loves you in whatever condition you are "IN" and "as you ARE". Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 I am sure there are many gays who would support gay pastors. I am sure there are many former members of the Church that would also. But I doubt that many current members would support a suggestion like this. History shows that changes always come slowly. They don't happen overnight. The other denominations that today have gay pastors and priests also didn't see the change suddenly. If we study church history, this is the pattern. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 I see no changes or pattern present in our church. I feel our church is Biblically based. I see our church lasting to the end of time. We are a remnant that believes in God. Looking at this fear is unfounded to me. Maybe I am ignorant. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: God loves and accepts gays and lesbians as they are This statement ... I wholely and warm heartedly agree with. God loves ALL sinners who are IN their sinful condition. We are ALL in a dreadful condition. Homosexuality is not King. ALL sin is equal ... it is SIN. ANY sin can cause you to lose your salvation. ONE sin keeps you away from God. We must have perfection in order to have our lives Saved from Hell. There is only one person who meets this criteria. He alone can save us. So, do you believe that Christ accepts you as you are and that He gives you the Robe to cover your sins? He does this for all ... even the homosexuals. No difference. He desires that ALL would come into the joy of life IN Him. But he takes and loves you in whatever condition you are "IN" and "as you ARE". But that is not what the statement means. What it means is that God doesn't want them to change, or repent of their homosexual lifestyle. The truth is that 1 Cor. 6: 9,10 says that while God loves everyone, people who continue to deliberately commit homosexual sin-- as well as other sins, such as those described-- will not be in God's kingdom. It's very important for everyone to understand that. The real issue here is not whether God loves sinners. Of course he loves all sinners. That's why He sent Christ and why He calls upon sinners to repent and believe the gospel. We're talking about the fact that if people continue to commit those sins and do not repent and turn away from them, they will be lost. Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: We're talking about whether God loves sinners. And the answer is clearly .... YES Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: We're talking about the fact that if people continue to commit those sins and do not repent and turn away from them, they will be lost Again ... Homosexuality is no different from ANY sin. No doubt. God would have us to be perfect without ANY sin. No question. But we can not be in the position of the JUDGE. So, I have to reject the above statement. I can't know their heart. I don't know why people sin. God knows their heart. HE alone will judge them. I am quite sure that there will be practicing homosexuals in heaven. Just as I can confidently say there will be those who practice eating sugar will be in heaven even if they have not repented and turned away from it. John317 ... we just do not have the ability to know the hearts and minds of people and know their background and knowledge of our Lord. We just can't make such bold statements since we don't KNOW them. ANY sin has the "ability" to keep us away from God. ANY. And when sin is committed ... that will keep us from God. But there are many things that draw us TO God. I think it is more helpful to dwell on those things. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 I see no changes or pattern present in our church. I feel our church is Biblically based. I see our church lasting to the end of time. We are a remnant that believes in God. Looking at this fear is unfounded to me. Maybe I am ignorant. Ever heard of the Alpha that already came into the church back in the late 1890s and early 1900s? Ellen White speaks of the "Omega" that is coming to our church. It is will cause the SDA church to appear as if it is about to fall. There will also be a great "shaking," which will cause many to follow false doctrines and eventually fall out of the church. Ellen White speaks of movements in the church to try to make changes in the fundamental doctrines. So there is still a great deal that is yet to happen between now and Christ's return. If you have it, read Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, Pp. 54, 55. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 I am not going to dwell on all the possible negative things that could "possibly" happen. I will focus on the Bible. NOT fear. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: We're talking about the fact that if people continue to commit those sins and do not repent and turn away from them, they will be lost Again ... Homosexuality is no different from ANY sin. No doubt. God would have us to be perfect without ANY sin. No question. But we can not be in the position of the JUDGE. So, I have to reject the above statement. I can't know their heart. I don't know why people sin. God knows their heart. HE alone will judge them. I am quite sure that there will be practicing homosexuals in heaven. Just as I can confidently say there will be those who practice eating sugar will be in heaven even if they have not repented and turned away from it. John317 ... we just do not have the ability to know the hearts and minds of people and know their background and knowledge of our Lord. We just can't make such bold statements since we don't KNOW them. ANY sin has the "ability" to keep us away from God. ANY. And when sin is committed ... that will keep us from God. But there are many things that draw us TO God. I think it is more helpful to dwell on those things. The question is whether the statement is true that homosexuals don't need to repent and change. Does the Bible really teach that "God accepts gays just as they are"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 John, John, John... and why do you only focus your argument against women in ministry on only one text that I or anyone else has cited in favor? I'm not focussing on only one text. As you can see, I am looking at every text in the New Testament that has anything to do with elders, pastors, deacons, and bishops, etc. In other words, I am looking at the entire government of the church. I asked about 1 Tim. 5: 2 because it is a verse you yourself cited as evidence that the NT church had women pastors, and then you continued to make the argument using that verse. But I do agree with your conclusion that it makes a very poor case for you. Quote: While you happily use bits and pieces, here a little, there a little, Notice that I am looking at every verse in the NT related to the subject. If you have found any evidence among any of those verses, and perhaps in others, please present it. Quote: .... Stated simply, 1 Timothy 5:2 is only one piece of the whole puzzle and not the strongest and most persuasive. No, it certainly is not, and therefore why was it the first verse you pointed to as evidence that the NT had women pastors? What other verses would you want to add to that? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: Does the Bible really teach that "God accepts gays just as they are"? YES But then he loves ALL of us just as we are. Of course it may not end there with some. Some will change. But he does invite all to come to Him as we are. We do not have to change before we can accept His loving invitation. We change AFTER we come. Well ... some will change. But that is not what we are to look at. We are to abide in Him. That is to be our focus. Some change will happen. But we are not to look at our sins. We are to look at Him. All this focus on sin ... will just get us that ... MORE sin. Our focus needs to be OFF sin and onto Him. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 I am not going to dwell on all the possible negative things that could "possibly" happen. I will focus on the Bible. NOT fear. In both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, God has told the church was is going to happen because He loves His church and wants her to be forewarned. The Bible tells us many of the same things in Rev. 12-18; 2 Tim 3; 1 Tim. 4; and Jude 4. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: In both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, God has told the church was is going to happen because He loves His church and wants her to be forewarned. The Bible tells us many of the same things in Rev. 12-18; 2 Tim 3; 1 Tim. 4; and Jude 4. Strange ... I didn't see any warnings about Gay Pastors in all that readings. Like I say ... I am not going to concern myself about Gay Pastors until the issue appears. I am not going to focus myself on possible fears. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: Does the Bible really teach that "God accepts gays just as they are"? YES But then he loves ALL of us just as we are. Of course it may not end there with some. Some will change. But he does invite all to come to Him as we are. We do not have to change before we can accept His loving invitation. We change AFTER we come. Well ... some will change. But that is not what we are to look at. We are to abide in Him. That is to be our focus. Some change will happen. But we are not to look at our sins. We are to look at Him. All this focus on sin ... will just get us that ... MORE sin. Our focus needs to be OFF sin and onto Him. The point here is that we're talking about people who claim that God will save them in His kingdom just as they are, practicing homosexual love. Of course I realize that God reaches out to save gays, but the point is that if they persist in practicing homosexual sin, they will be lost. That is precisely what 1 Cor. 6: 9,10 and other verses teach. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 It is quite difficult to discuss something if you keep changing what you want to talk about. You asked ... Quote: Does the Bible really teach that "God accepts gays just as they are"? I can only go by your words. Now you want to change the topic. I just have a hard time chasing you around. But, the answer to this question is clearly ... YES Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: In both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, God has told the church was is going to happen because He loves His church and wants her to be forewarned. The Bible tells us many of the same things in Rev. 12-18; 2 Tim 3; 1 Tim. 4; and Jude 4. Strange ... I didn't see any warnings about Gay Pastors in all that readings. Like I say ... I am not going to concern myself about Gay Pastors until the issue appears. I am not going to focus myself on possible fears. The warning contained in the Bible is that before Christ returns, we can look for many in the church to fall away from the faith and doctrines once delivered to the saints, and we know that this will happen increasingly as we approach that day. One of those doctrines is, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Posted January 13, 2008 Oh. I can go along with that message. I thought it was gang up on Homosexuals as if they are some special class of sinners. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 It is quite difficult to discuss... Quote: Does the Bible really teach that "God accepts gays just as they are"? Where does the Bible teach that God "accepts" homosexuals just as they are? Yes, God does love everyone, but that is different in the Biblical sense from saying that God "accepts" everyone just as they are, outside of Christ and outside of His law. Outside of His law means that they are deliberately disobeying His law. God does not "accept" us while we are deliberately disobeying His law and refusing to repent. For instance, God loved the people of Sodom. He loved the people of Nineveh. But the people of Sodom were destroyed. Ninevah repented and so for a while they were saved from destruction, but eventually the city was destroyed and ceased to exist because of its refusal to repent and obey God. That is the same with homosexuals. God loves them, yes, but if they refuse to repent and allow God to change them, they will be lost. But there are those who don't believe they need to change, and that is what I am talking about: the mistaken belief that God will save them IN their homosexual sins. God saves us from our sins, not IN our sins. Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: We're not talking about whether God loves sinners. And the answer is clearly .... YES As I said, the question is not whether God loves sinners, but whether God will save sinners in His kingdom if they refuse to repent and depart from iniquity or unrighteousness, as 2 Tim. 2: 19 says. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 Oh. I can go along with that message. I thought it was gang up on Homosexuals as if they are some special class of sinners. No, of course not. We're talking about it because we're living in a time when many believe that there is nothing wrong with it, and that idea has entered into the Christian churches, even into the SDA church. I would be the last person to "gang up" on homosexuals. We're talking about the sin of homosexuality, not about them as individuals. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Posted January 13, 2008 Tom, I would be very interested in your understanding of 1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 33-35. Also, why, do you think, did Christ choose only men as apostles of the church? Couldn't Christ have chosen a woman to be an apostle if He had wanted to? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 14, 2008 Administrators Posted January 14, 2008 Quote: ...No, it certainly is not, and therefore why was it the first verse you pointed to as evidence that the NT had women pastors? What other verses would you want to add to that? If you would do your homework and have been paying attention in class you would have no need for such questions. It clearly was not the first verse I pointed to. It was more likely the first one you paid attention to... I have repeatedly posted many other verses and discussed them at length. And others have done so as well. Use the handy searhc feature of the software for this forum and find them... and read them. I am tired of repeating myself. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 14, 2008 Administrators Posted January 14, 2008 ...We're talking about the sin of homosexuality... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 14, 2008 Administrators Posted January 14, 2008 I would be very interested in your understanding of 1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 33-35. If one is to take these two passages literally there are some real problems and some really screwy ideas. Take for example the statement about women being saved through childbirth. If Paul is offering a command that women are to be silent in church, either it must be taken and followed literally to the full extent of what it literally says, or it is to be understood in a more limited sense. If you add to the passage any qualification of its clear literal meaning as commonly translated then where do you draw the line on that limiting process? And on what basis can you be justified in doing so? Quite obviously, few Christians, including Adventists, take this passage literally as it is translated. Women may attend but must sit quietly in complete silence. If so, no women would be allowed to pray, read scripture, give an announcement or sing, lead out or participate in Sabbath School, much less preach a sermon in church. All of those activities in church require making noise, breaking silence. And EGW herself quite obviously understood it differently since according to the White Estate, preached more than 10,000 sermons during her ministry. So what does it mean if not to be taken literally? Quite simply, I accept the explanation given by Angel Rodriguez, I believe it was, that said the original Greek used here does not mean absence of sound or no speaking at all. The nuance of the original meaning was more on the order of do not be contentious or disruptive. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
D. Allan Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 "Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." - Timothy Leary Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
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