Women in Ministry

[Tom Wetmore]

...Think about Paul's point to have power onthe head or cover the head because of the angels. You have no idea what that means do you? And you have no idea why Paul is saying it is a shame for women to talk in church because it's in the law...

So Norman, do you forbid Denise from speaking in church? And do you insist that she cover her head when she goes to church?

Just curious...

Tom

[Denise]

Good morning Tom! I'll answer that question. L O L No, he doesn't forbid me to speak or cover my head. :)

[Tom Wetmore]

So do you keep silent in church? Do you cover your head in church? Do you ever teach Norman anything?

Tom

[Denise]

I speak and engage in Sabbath School lessons. I share whenever I feel impressed to share what I have learned. If I have something I don't understand, I ask my husband, and go back and study it myself. I learn alot from my husband and respect him. Whenever I discover, understand, and learn something from the scripture, I share this with my husband. So, we both share and learn together. Cover my head in church with a veil of some sort? No, I don't. God Bless, Denise :)

[Beryl]

Quote:

You may think it's valid, but if you understood, you would not post what you did. It's obvious that you lack understanding in this matter. Think about Paul's point to have power onthe head or cover the head because of the angels. You have no idea what that means do you? And you have no idea why Paul is saying it is a shame for women to talk in church because it's in the law. You are clueless on these matter and that's why you connot understand what this is about. As long as you keep shutting your mind to any ideas other than culture, you won't see the beauty in this.

You didn't even read what I said, did you? You did? Then please go back and read it again. And again. And again, until you can understand what I said.

Quote:

It's not up to me to teach you what that means, you would do well to pray that God would give you understanding and then you'd have peace with this.

Yes, Norman. You would do well to follow your own advice. I suppose you still do not believe that David's many wives were in fact his wives, and not servants? Or did you even read my answer on that?

I would not boast, as you do, that you have the whole truth -- and the rest of us don't.

Beryl

[Tom Wetmore]

...Beryl, this is a good start but even the what you have posted here is not touching the real issue, keep searching though. At least you are keeping an open mind and that is a good thing...

Originally Posted By: Norman

[To Beryl]...You still haven't understood why Paul told the women to be silent in church because it is a law. I am urging you to take that and study it prayerfully.

Originally Posted By: Norman

[To Bery]...You have mis-judged God in this assumption of yours. Think about what you have suggested!

...This was sin and for you to suggest that God gave David Sauls wives to be as wives for him to sleep with is to not know God. You have gone to far with this idea that you support and really need to be more thoughtful.

There is some things you don't understand and I know this and that is why you make these statements.

keep studying 1 Cor 14: 34 and ask yourself why did Paul write that? Really pray about this. I say this because if I tell you, you won't listen to me because you think I'm way off. If you find it all will be well.

Originally Posted By: Norman

[To Beryl]...This is not correct. REad this verse and tell me how does it apply to culture and explain it. I will not tell you the meaning of this because it's something you need to go to God with and have an experience with. 1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Unless you can properly explain what it means for women to have power or cover their heads because of the angels you should refrain for saying it is a cultural issue.

Please, read your Bible in the context of its cultural settings.

Please understand what the Bible is saying in a spiritual context.

There will always be order in God's family and it is neccessary. Not to restrict anyone but to free up everyone. I know you don't understand what I just wrote (otherwise you would never have written what you just did) so I will give you an example.

...Do you have any idea of what is being said here and can you not see the reason for women not being the head but rather be in subjection? This is not a cultural issue at all! Much more: and listen to the words of Peter...

So Norman, What does Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 5:2, as you interpret it, mean? He said, "Do not rebuke your elders...treat the elder women as your mother..."

For that matter, Norman, based on your appearance in the photo Denise posted, I think a number of the men you have taken to rebuking here on CA are older than you. Are you treating them as you would your own father?

Just thought I would ask...

Tom

(And Denise, let Norman speak for himself. It is unseemly for a wife to speak for her husband...)

[Woody]

Quote:

I would not boast, as you do, that you have the whole truth -- and the rest of us don't.

Yes, I agree with you Beryl. I think this attitude is a most dangerous one. It is not the kind of witness I would want to see if I was participating in a Sabbath School discussion or any discussion.

[Woody]

Said to Beryl

Quote:

You ... really need to be more thoughtful.

I think that there are a number of people who need to be more thoughtful ... but I do not count Beryl in that number.

[Woody]

Quote:

(And Denise, let Norman speak for himself. It is unseemly for a wife to speak for her husband...)

Tom ... I think that would appear to be consistent with what I have heard.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

Just curious...did EGW always wear a bonnet?

I would hope not. I think she indicated that bonnets were not modest enough. She advocated veils to cover the face.

Do you have a reference for that?

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen G. White is shown in vision that women in church should cover their faces and head with a vail:

"I WAS SHOWN that the people of God should not imitate the fashions of the world. Some have done this and are fast losing the peculiar, holy character which should distingush them as God' people. I WAS POINTED BACK TO GOD'S ANCIENT PEOPLE, and was led to compare their apparel with the mode of dress in these last days. What a difference! What a change! Then the women were not so bold as now. WHEN THEY WENT IN PUBLIC, THEY COVERED THEIR FACES WITH A VAIL. In these last days, fashions are shameful and immodest...The SMALL bonnets, exposing the FACE and head, show a lack of modesty...The inhabitants are growing more and more corrupt..." (Testimonies, vol. 1, pp. 188,189)

[Pearly]

That was in vogue then not now. If you want to wear a hat now that is ok but most women don't. IMO all women today are not imodest because they do not cover their face. I surely would not want my young wife to cover her face all the time. Of course that is just my opinion.

Pearly

[Woody]

Welcome Pearly. Glad to have you onboard. Will look forward to more of your comments. And I do think your comment here is correct. You know ... much of what Ellen White said was not necessarily for our current consumption.

[melvin mccarty]

Maybe Paul too

mel

[Woody]

Exactly.

[carolaa]

Quote:

You may think it's valid, but if you understood, you would not post what you did. It's obvious that you lack understanding in this matter. Think about Paul's point to have power onthe head or cover the head because of the angels. You have no idea what that means do you? And you have no idea why Paul is saying it is a shame for women to talk in church because it's in the law. You are clueless on these matter and that's why you connot understand what this is about. As long as you keep shutting your mind to any ideas other than culture, you won't see the beauty in this.

Quote:

It's not up to me to teach you what that means, you would do well to pray that God would give you understanding and then you'd have peace with this.

Norman, Norman, I have to tell you....some of your posts come across as incredibly arrogant. I mean, really, how would you like to be called clueless? That sounds extremely condescending. And why do you go on and on, skirting the issue that so many of us seem to be clueless about? That is not an effective way to teach. If you aren't going to clue us in, then why bring it up at all? Because it sounds like you think we are too stupid and/or unspiritual to understand.

I sincerely hope your intention is not to sound this way, but it is how it comes across to me.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Norman, Norman, I have to tell you....some of your posts come across as incredibly arrogant. I mean, really, how would you like to be called clueless? That sounds extremely condescending. And why do you go on and on, skirting the issue that so many of us seem to be clueless about? That is not an effective way to teach. If you aren't going to clue us in, then why bring it up at all? Because it sounds like you think we are too stupid and/or unspiritual to understand.

I sincerely hope your intention is not to sound this way, but it is how it comes across to me.

Do you believe in the position I have taken on these topics?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

So Norman, do you forbid Denise from speaking in church? And do you insist that she cover her head when she goes to church?

Just curious...

Tom

Tom if you undserstood what that meant you wouldn't ask such an empty question. You really couldn't care less what my wife and I do so why are you asking? To edify? to encourage? to enlighten? Why are you asking Tom? What is your purpose? Are your intents godly?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:You may think it's valid, but if you understood, you would not post what you did. It's obvious that you lack understanding in this matter. Think about Paul's point to have power onthe head or cover the head because of the angels. You have no idea what that means do you? And you have no idea why Paul is saying it is a shame for women to talk in church because it's in the law. You are clueless on these matter and that's why you connot understand what this is about. As long as you keep shutting your mind to any ideas other than culture, you won't see the beauty in this.

You didn't even read what I said, did you? You did? Then please go back and read it again. And again. And again, until you can understand what I said.

Quote:It's not up to me to teach you what that means, you would do well to pray that God would give you understanding and then you'd have peace with this.

Yes, Norman. You would do well to follow your own advice. I suppose you still do not believe that David's many wives were in fact his wives, and not servants? Or did you even read my answer on that?

I would not boast, as you do, that you have the whole truth -- and the rest of us don't.

Beryl

Beryl, both of these post were directed to someone else. Why have you left out that person's name. You are making it appear that I have written this to you and that I have not read your posts? Why did you do that?

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen G. White is shown in vision that women in church should cover their faces and head with a vail:

"I WAS SHOWN that the people of God should not imitate the fashions of the world. Some have done this and are fast losing the peculiar, holy character which should distingush them as God' people. I WAS POINTED BACK TO GOD'S ANCIENT PEOPLE, and was led to compare their apparel with the mode of dress in these last days. What a difference! What a change! Then the women were not so bold as now. WHEN THEY WENT IN PUBLIC, THEY COVERED THEIR FACES WITH A VAIL. In these last days, fashions are shameful and immodest...The SMALL bonnets, exposing the FACE and head, show a lack of modesty...The inhabitants are growing more and more corrupt..." (Testimonies, vol. 1, pp. 188,189)

Ellen White is not saying in that quote that she was shown in vision that women in the church should wear a veil over their faces either in her own day or in our day. You are misinterpreting Ellen White's words. Ellen White is making a comparison between the customs of God's ancient people and those in the church of her own day. There was a marked difference, showing a growing lack of modesty. Ellen White was certainly right when she spoke of the inhabitants of earth growing more and more corrupt.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[carolaa]

Quote:

Norman, Norman, I have to tell you....some of your posts come across as incredibly arrogant. I mean, really, how would you like to be called clueless? That sounds extremely condescending. And why do you go on and on, skirting the issue that so many of us seem to be clueless about? That is not an effective way to teach. If you aren't going to clue us in, then why bring it up at all? Because it sounds like you think we are too stupid and/or unspiritual to understand.

I sincerely hope your intention is not to sound this way, but it is how it comes across to me.

Do you believe in the position I have taken on these topics?

I'm not even sure how to answer a question like that. Do I laugh? Do I throw up my hands and walk away? What exactly are you trying to say? You seem to be quite good at being as vague as possible, which I personally consider to be rude behavior, as it makes the other party have to guess what you are trying to say instead of you just coming out with it. Sad to say, I have little patience for that. Are you saying that if I say I agree with your position, then you will clue me in to your big secret? How can I agree or disagree with your position if I don't know the basis for it? Share all your information, and I'll see if I agree or disagree, or maybe I will agree with some and not all.

But, anyway, the point of my post was merely a suggestion that you might consider your words so as not to come across so arrogant and condescending.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

So Norman, What does Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 5:2, as you interpret it, mean? He said, "Do not rebuke your elders...treat the elder women as your mother..."

For that matter, Norman, based on your appearance in the photo Denise posted, I think a number of the men you have taken to rebuking here on CA are older than you. Are you treating them as you would your own father?

Just thought I would ask...

Tom

(And Denise, let Norman speak for himself. It is unseemly for a wife to speak for her husband...)

Tom, why are you twisting scripture to make it say something to make me look bad? The verse say rebuke not an elder as in elder of the church, it does not mean an older man. Shame on you Tom Whetmore. Denise spoke for me because I could not she asked me and I told she could if she wanted. Is that control or is it respect for her husband? Praise God for a wife who does such things!

As for my replies to Beryl, they are not written in anger or disrespect. You have an obsession with me and therefore you see what is not there.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

I'm not even sure how to answer a question like that.

It's easy yes or no. Just go back and read the posts and you'll see what I have said. I asked yout that question because it seems strange to me that you would say these things to me but not others who are meanspirited towards those who hold the view I do.

If you don't believe in what I have written and disagree with it and are telling me about what I am doing wrong??? do you see what I see? Do you see what I see?

[carolaa]

If you don't believe in what I have written and disagree with it and are telling me about what I am doing wrong??? do you see what I see? Do you see what I see?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: NormanIf you don't believe in what I have written and disagree with it and are telling me about what I am doing wrong??? do you see what I see? Do you see what I see?

I'll explain because Normanese can be hard to understand even Denise had to ask me what I meant. I am saying: If you don't believe in what I have written and disagree with it and are telling me about what I am doing wrong. Doesn't that seem a little biased when some others here have intentional mean spirited comments with no other purpose than to take a swing, but you have not said anything to them.

So my conclusion is, why is she not saying something to them? It must be because she agrees with them and feels the same way.

Do you now see what I see?