Women in Ministry

[Woody]

Interesting that the Seventh day Adventist Church views it differently than the above stated opinion.

I think it is time to unite and get the work done. We may not always agree with the decisions of the church but we do need to be unified.

[olger]

Speaking of work, neighbor. Do you have a job?

Thanks,

oG

[John317]

Interesting that the Seventh day Adventist Church views it differently than the above stated opinion.

I think it is time to unite and get the work done. We may not always agree with the decisions of the church but we do need to be unified.

The church in General Conference has voted twice against ordaining women to become pastors. There are some local conferences which have voted to ignore that decision.

[Woody]

The Seventh day Adventist Church has decided that women can and should be in leadership over men. The vote has been overwhelming each time it has come up.

[olger]

:)

I doubt if that record is fixable..

[Woody]

Then why do I keep hearing that women should not be in leadership over men? Maybe you can explain it so I can understand?

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Interesting that the Seventh day Adventist Church views it differently than the above stated opinion.

I think it is time to unite and get the work done. We may not always agree with the decisions of the church but we do need to be unified.

The church in General Conference has voted twice against ordaining women to become pastors. There are some local conferences which have voted to ignore that decision.

Taylor says: True. However they have never said that women can't be pastors. The job is the same, just one is with and and one without ordination.

[Woody]

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God's arrangement is not that woman is to rule over the man. The entire Bible shows this: the male is the head of the home in God's arrangement; and there were no female priests, no female disciples, no female apostles, and no female elders or pastors.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to apply this verse (Gen. 3: 16) to God's arrangement in the church as well as in the home.

Like I say ... The church has already decided this with great clarity. We now have a Vice President of the world wide church. I think she is in leadership.

And the idea that there are no women apostles is just wrong as is all the others. We have women in ALL these postions. We are all called to the Priesthood. There is neither male nor female.

[John317]

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God's arrangement is not that woman is to rule over the man. The entire Bible shows this: the male is the head of the home in God's arrangement; and there were no female priests, no female disciples, no female apostles, and no female elders or pastors.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to apply this verse (Gen. 3: 16) to God's arrangement in the church as well as in the home.

Like I say ... The church has already decided this with great clarity. We now have a Vice President of the world wide church. I think she is in leadership.

But there is a distinction to be made between being a General Conference leader and being a church elder or pastor. The SDA church has had women leaders in conferences before. The distinction is clear by the fact that the General Conference voted against ordaining women to be elders and pastors of the world-wide church, at the same time that it voted for a woman to be a vice-president. The church, then, does not see having a female vice-president as being in conflict with its policy of ordaining only men to be church elders and pastors.

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And the idea that there are no women apostles is just wrong as is all the others. We have women in ALL these postions. We are all called to the Priesthood. There is neither male nor female.

There were no women apostles in the NT, which is what I had reference to. We need to make the Bible our standard for these things, don't you agree?

And while it is true that all are called to the priesthood in Christ, that fact is not related to the governance of the church. There is no contradiction whatever between what the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write in 1 Cor. 14: 34 and what God inspired him to write in Gal. 3: 28.

Many churches have ordained homosexuals to the church, but I'm sure you'll agree that fact does not make it right or Biblical. In the same way, the time may come where the SDA church also ordains gays to be pastors, but of course that won't make it the correct thing to do. The Bible still remains our standard. The General Conference has made mistakes before.

[Taylor]

Male nor Females have to be ordained to be in a leadership/pastoral role in a church.

[Taylor]

Ordination or the lack thereof has been decided a the GC session as a "no" due to not wanting to split the church on this issue. Whether I agree or not doesn't matter, I can respect the churche's decision. I suspect at some point this might change but if it doesn't, this minor issues doesn't keep any woman or man from fulfilling their calling to the gospel ministry. There are many men that aren't currently ordained either and they minister just as effectively to their churches as the ordained pastors.

However, the church has never said that women can't be in leadership as Senior Pastors, associate pastors, youth pastors, children's pastors, Bible teachers etc. There are many women pastors in many countries. They may not be ordained or comissioned, but they are hired as pastors and work in that role. Other women have acted as pastors as volunteers. These women may not have any theological training perhaps, but they work as a pastor of their local church, considering that the paid pastor has 50 churches and he is lucky to get to their church once or twice a year.

So paid or not paid, ordained or not ordained, hired or not hired, if someone, male, female, old, or young has a calling to the ministry, the church has never stood in their way. In fact the church has recognized their calling. Ordination is a seperate issue from pastoring or preaching.

[Woody]

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The church, then, does not see having a female vice-president as being in conflict with its policy of ordaining only men to be church elders and pastors.

This is correct for ... the two issues are totally different. Either you want to talk about women in leadership ... or you want to talk about "ordination". Again ... let's decide which it is you want to talk about.

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And while it is true that all are called to the priesthood in Christ, that fact is not related to the governance of the church

So then ... are you saying that women are not called to "govern the church"? But I think the church has been clear on that issue.

The Bible does remain our standard. But it is not your interpretation that is our standard. The opinion of the church is what the body abides by. Right or wrong ... that is what we unite behind.

And now you want to muddy the waters with a discussion of gay pastors? The fact is that the SDA church does indeed have gay pastors. WE ALL SIN and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus forgives this sin. We do not exclude someone for this sin. We in fact need more who have been gay so they can relate to the struggle and guide those with this problem.

Forgive me if I am wrong. I think you said you are gay. You have to claim victory of this each and every day ... am I correct? No different with a Pastor. As long as he is promoting victory then why not have gay pastors. Why wouldn't you be a good Pastor ?

There are many good Pastors who are just as I have described.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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OK, Norman, so David only had one wife with whom he slept. OK? Is that what you are saying?

Beryl, you missed my point.

David never "went in to" his wives after Absolum slept with them. This shows a character trait in David that is honorable so as to not shame the women any further than they already were. It also reveals godliness in how David viewed his wives and Sauls wives. I was saying that David would not have slept with Sauls wives. I was also reproving you for suggesting that God passed these women along for David to sleep with, thus hoping that you would see your mistake. This was one point I was making in order to clarify another point, the which, we are discussing.

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Now, if you are wrong in your conclusions regarding David and his wives and concubines, maybe you are mistaken in the other cultural norms!

Sister Beryl, it's not a matter of whether I'm wrong or not but rather what truth is.

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Read through the Old Testament.

I have and here's what I have found: Deu 17:17 Neither shall he (the king) multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

The NT has a very good explanation for this disobedience: Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

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That is the way He deals with us today -- based on our knowledge and our hearts.

The verse above is clear and God is not looking for a people who use their knowledge as in the past. We are living in the end of earth's history and God is looking for a people who love the truth and will not comprimise and who are willing to die for it(the Word of God). This is no time to live according principles of those who lived in ignorance when we have plenty of knowledge to guide us.

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And that is why we are going to need that 1000 years in heaven to learn just what God wants us to be

Beryl that is not what that time is for. For those who want to know what God wants us to be, they can know that now. Those who are waiting till the 1000 years to know what God wants us to be will not be there. God has not made this a mystery.

You still haven't understood why Paul told the women to be silent in church because it is a law. I am urging you to take that and study it prayerfully.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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I am sure that one could see the beauty in it if you are a ...

MAN

No Redwood; you don't get it either.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Norman, I find this to be very revealing about your perspective... It certainly isn't the perspective of Scripture since there is no evidence for this conclusion there.

Tom

No evidence? What is: Thou shalt not commit Adultery? and Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

What else would they do, sit around and eat bon bons? This exchange with Bathsheba reveals a lot, considering how much he loved her. Then think about the others. 1Ki 1:11 Wherefore Nathan spoke unto Bath-sheba the mother of Solomon, saying, Hast thou not heard that Adonijah the son of Haggith doth reign, and David our lord knoweth it not? 1Ki 1:13 Go and get thee in unto king David, and say unto him, Didst not thou, my lord, O king, swear unto thine handmaid, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne? why then doth Adonijah reign? 1Ki 1:17 And she said unto him, My lord, thou swarest by the LORD thy God unto thine handmaid, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne.

Handmaid was commonly used to mean servant and Bathsheba used that term for herself so why would the others? Sometimes you have to get to the truth by deduction and not only what you read; as long as it does not contadict the truth.

Norman

[Tom Wetmore]

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Norman, I find this to be very revealing about your perspective... It certainly isn't the perspective of Scripture since there is no evidence for this conclusion there.

Tom

No evidence? What is: Thou shalt not commit Adultery?...

Norman, you know very well that I was not referring to adultery. Go back and look at the words that I highlighted. The verse in question specifically referred to wives of Saul given to David. You have taken the plain meaning of that and perverted it to say they were just servants. What I find revealing is that you so easily equate the word wife with servant. Why? To support your notion that the kings of Israel only had one wife which is blatantly contrary to obvious facts recorded in Scripture. The conclusion that you blindly leap to is that the word "wives" must mean servants! And why do you see that as necessary? All to support a false premise about women in ministry?!?!

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Handmaid was commonly used to mean servant and Bathsheba used that term for herself so why would the others?...

As for your confusion over the usage of maidservant, I would suggest you do a bit more study on that one. Quite simply it was customary of anyone to refer to themselves in a self-deprecating and deferential manner when addressing anyone of higher status or rank, especially the king. The common term was to refer to oneself as "Your humble servant". This was done by both men and women, even if they were in fact not in actual and direct servitude to the king. Even a respectful wife of the king, and the mother of his children, would address him as such. But that did not mean that she was any less his wife who slept with him and had his children, nor did it mean that she was just another one of the household staff.

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Sometimes you have to get to the truth by deduction and not only what you read...

The process of deduction does not disregard or contradict the plain and ordinary meaning of the words actually written, and when the meaning is obvious, deduction is not even necessary.

Tom

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Norman, you know very well that I was not referring to adultery. Go back and look at the words that I highlighted.

Tom I know that and I decided to adress both issues

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As for your confusion over the usage of maidservant, I would suggest you do a bit more study on that one. Quite simply it was customary of anyone to refer to themselves in a self-deprecating and deferential manner when addressing anyone of higher status or rank, especially the king. The common term was to refer to oneself as "Your humble servant". This was done by both men and women, even if they were in fact not in actual and direct servitude to the king. Even a respectful wife of the king, and the mother of his children, would address him as such. But that did not mean that she was any less his wife who slept with him and had his children, nor did it mean that she was just another one of the household staff.

I know what that term means and was pointing it out because this is how Bathsheba addressed David. I did a study of the word. you might try it yourself, there's nothing wrong or incorrect with what I have posted. You cannot disprove it Biblically.

Norman

[John317]

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The church, then, does not see having a female vice-president as being in conflict with its policy of ordaining only men to be church elders and pastors.

This is correct for ... the two issues are totally different. Either you want to talk about women in leadership ... or you want to talk about "ordination". Again ... let's decide which it is you want to talk about.

Yes, I agree, they are two totally different issues, just as having women as a pastor or elder or bishop is different from having them as deaconess or in women's ministry, minister of music, evangelism, etc. I'm not limited to talking about just one issue related to women in the church. We don't want to put limits where the Bible doesn't put them; but on the other hand, we don't want to practice the gifts that God has placed in the church, in a way that is not in accordance with His word.

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JOHN317-- And while it is true that all are called to the priesthood in Christ, that fact is not related to the governance of the church

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So then ... are you saying that women are not called to "govern the church"?

Can you point to a single example in the Bible of women functioning in the elder's or pastor's role of government over the entire church? So far as I know, there is not one example in the whole Bible of a woman doing the kind of congregational Bible teaching that is expected of pastors/elders in the New Testament church.

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The Bible does remain our standard.

So then, where does the Bible show that women are supposed to be in the position of pastors or elders or bishops? Since the Bible is our standard, we need to be able to find that the Bible contains evidence God wants women to be pastors, overseers and elders.

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But it is not your interpretation that is our standard. The opinion of the church is what the body abides by. Right or wrong ... that is what we unite behind.

That's true, it is not my interpretation that is our standard. Neither, of course, is yours or any other individual's. Each person's understanding of the Bible, after prayer and study and reflection, must be each person's standard. The church is not my conscience or your conscience. God holds each person individually responsible for doing right.

I'm glad to see that you believe we need to unite behind the church in its decisions and doctrines.

If the church makes a decision that is in plain opposition to a commandment of God, we shouldn't be united behind the church's wrong decision. For instance, if the church votes to allow gays become ministers and pastors, it would be plainly in opposition to the Scriptures, and therefore it would be obviously wrong regardless of how many people voted that way. If I believe that the church's decision does not ask me to do or believe something in opposition to the Bible, then I should support the church's decision.

Ellen White herself supported the decisions of the church in General Conference even when she thought it had made wrong decisions, but never when she believed it was in opposition to Scripture.

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And now you want to muddy the waters with a discussion of gay pastors? The fact is that the SDA church does indeed have gay pastors.

Does the church have pastors who are actively gay NOW, at the time they are working as pastors? That is the question. The question is not whether someone used to live that lifestyle.

I do not believe I am muddying the waters at all by discussing gay pastors. In fact, history shows that the churches that accept women as priests or clergy are soon faced with gay clergy.

One reason this is so is that all the arguments that can be used to show that Paul supported women as pastors and elders could also be used to support the idea that gays should be pastors. I know this very well because I used to be a member of a gay church and have heard all the arguments used to defend gay Christianity. It all starts with saying that Paul's message was conditioned by his culture. That's the same argument used to say that the Bible is only opposed to women being pastors and elders because its message is culturally conditioned. Another fallacious argument is that the homosexuals condemned in the Bible are different from today's homosexuals. Still another is that the same chapters in the Old Testament that condemn men who go to bed with other men also condemn things that most modern people no longer condemn. And so forth and so on.

I am particularly sensitive to the issues related to confusion of the genders because I have what is known as gender identity disorder. It requires deliberate decisions on my part, along with God's Spirit, to fight against these feelings.

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WE ALL SIN and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus forgives this sin.

Yes, we all continually fall short of God's glorious ideal. Jesus does forgive us this sin, certainly. But that is conditioned on our repenting of sin and asking for forgiveness and for power to overcome sin. If we give in to sin and refuse to use God's power to overcome it, we will eventually be overcome by sin, and God will allow us to believe a lie because we refused to love and obey the truth.

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We do not exclude someone for this sin.

We do if they have not repented of it and forsaken it. If it is something that is still in their life while they are in the ministry, they should be excluded, definitely.

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We in fact need more who have been gay so they can relate to the struggle and guide those with this problem.

Yes, I agree, and I am so glad you said, "have been gay." God does indeed forgive that sin as well as all other sins, but that means they are not deliberately choosing to commit sin. If they are deliberately choosing to commit sin, including homosexual behaviors, then they should not be pastors. By the way, God also gives people power not only to repent of sin but to forsake it and overcome it.

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Forgive me if I am wrong. I think you said you are gay. You have to claim victory of this each and every day ... am I correct? No different with a Pastor. As long as he is promoting victory then why not have gay pastors. Why wouldn't you be a good Pastor?

Yes, I consider myself "gay" in a certain sense-- which I need to explain so that it is not misunderstood. I am "gay" for Jesus in the same way that "Parade Orange" is. We are all sinners but I'm a sinner who lives for Jesus and I have stopped the practice of sinning. I don't deliberately sin. In particular I don't practice the gay lifestyle. I no longer have a desire to do those sins. But I know that if I was not in a daily relationship with Christ, I would go back to them. If it was just me-- my sinful nature-- I would be living for sin, rather than for Christ and for righteousness.

A pastor must not promote "victory" but know victory experientially. Otherwise how can he promote it effectively? If a pastor is experiencing constant defeat in his personal life, he really needs to get out of the ministry until he knows victory through God's grace over sin. A minister who is deliberately committing sin does no one but the devil any good. The devil is the one who wants that kind of minister in the church.

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There are many good Pastors who are just as I have described.

I hope you mean the ones who used to be great sinners but who are now, during their ministry, great workers living constantly for God. If you mean this, then we completely agree.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[olger]

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A pastor must not promote "victory" but know victory experientially. Otherwise how can he promote it effectively? If a pastor is experiencing constant defeat in his personal life, he really needs to get out of the ministry until he knows victory through God's grace over sin. A minister who is deliberately committing sin does no one but the devil any good. The devil is the one who wants that kind of minister in the church.

A-MEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is olger signing off...

[John317]

A-MEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is olger signing off...

Hey you-- come back. Why'd you go 'way so fast?!

[Morning Glory]

So, How're gonna get to church tomorrow??

Just curious.......that'll be a long walk in the snow and ice I would think.

[Taylor]

ROFL CoAspen and Morning Glory!!

[Beryl]

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You still haven't understood why Paul told the women to be silent in church because it is a law. I am urging you to take that and study it prayerfully.

OK, Norman, I have, this afternoon, spent much time studying what Paul had to say to the Corinthian Church. Not only have I studied what the Bible says, but I have also read, and studied, what the SDA Bible Commentary says regarding both chapters 11 and 14. It is very hard to try to condense it all into an answer that can be given here.

Let me, however, point out a few things. I shall quote from the Commentary, 1 Corinthians 14.

v.34 "Women Keep Silence" "......Some have found difficulty in understanding this prohibition in terms, not only of our modern concepts of the place of women in the church (this commentary was published 1957 -- 50 years ago) but also of the place and service of women in Bible history (see Judges 4:4; 2 Kings 22:14; Luke 2:36, 37; Acts 21:9) Paul himself commended the women who laboured with him in the gospel (Phil.4:3). There is no doubt that women played a definite part in the life of the church. Why, then, should they be prevented from speaking in public? The answer is found in v.35."

Law [This section outlines the assignment by God to a position of subordination to her husband (not men in general) as a result of the fall]. "Owing to the change in his nature by the entrance of sin into his experience, the harmonious life that man had previously known was brought to an end. No longer was it practical for husband and wife to have equal authority in the leadership of the home, and God chose to place upon man the major responsibility of making decisions and instructing his family (see PP 58,59)".

V.35. "Ask their husbands". Such a procedure would prevent unseemly interruptions in the service of worship and avoid the confusion attendant on such interruptions.

Shame . This was true because both Greek and Jewish custom dictated that women should be kept in the background in public affairs. Violation of this custom would be looked upon as disgraceful and would bring reproach upon the church. /b]

As I first indicated -- this was a cultural norm that does not apply to us today.

I will be back with more later.

Beryl

[Woody]

John317 says ...

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The distinction is clear by the fact that the General Conference voted against ordaining women to be elders

Now that is a new one on me.

Do you have evidence of such a claim?

See below ...

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1984, October: Annual Council.

Women elders’ ordination policy reaffirmed.

Annual Council reaffirms 1975 Spring Meeting decision that women may be ordained as local elders. Votes to "advise each division that it is free to make provisions as it may deem necessary for the election and ordination of women as local church elders." Thus the provision is extended from NAD to the world field.

[Woody]

John317 says ...

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The distinction is clear by the fact that the General Conference voted against ordaining women to be elders

Now that is a new one on me.

Do you have evidence of such a claim?

See below ...

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1984, October: Annual Council.

Women elders’ ordination policy reaffirmed.

Annual Council reaffirms 1975 Spring Meeting decision that women may be ordained as local elders. Votes to "advise each division that it is free to make provisions as it may deem necessary for the election and ordination of women as local church elders." Thus the provision is extended from NAD to the world field.

John317 ... I was wondering if you were able to find any supporting evidence to your claim that the General Conference has said that women are not to be ordained elders?

I would be interested in this.