Women in Ministry

[olger]

Hi John. Those vote numbers are readily available in the sources. USA Today printed the numbers after the 1990 Session.

George Reid referenced the numbers (they are accurate as I submitted them). Mervyn Maxwell has cited them, as well as Spectrum, The Review, Adventists Affirm and others.

Lord bless,

oG

[olger]

Adventist News Network

Released by: Ray Dabrowski

Phone: +31-30-955-324 (June 29-July 8) or +301-680-6300

Written by: Max Torkelsen II, Rick Kajiura, Ray Dabrowski

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

July 5, 1995

"WOMEN'S ORDINATION REQUEST REJECTED AT SEVENTH-DAY

ADVENTIST WORLD SESSION

Utrecht, The Netherlands... Casting what is essentially a vote against the ordination of women for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, delegates to the 56th World Congress of the Seventh-day Adventist Church voted not to allow world divisions of the Church to ordain individuals without regard to gender.

Fewer than one-third of the delegates voted in favor of the request from the North American Division of the Church which asked that divisions, not the Church as a whole, be allowed to make the decision on ordination. Of the 2,154 votes cast, 1,481 voted against the request, 673 voted for.

At the 1990 General Conference Session in Indianapolis, United States, a motion to ordain women to ministry was not approved. The vote then was 1,173 in favor of the recommendation "not to approve ordination of women to the gospel ministry," against 377 votes."

[Tom Wetmore]

Consideration of the context points to Phoebe being much more than merely a helper. If she were coming to Rome to be a helper, why would Paul have instructed the believers there to do whatever she asked them to do? Wouldn't Paul have said to them, 'Since she is your servant, tell her what she can do for you'? It also ignores a unique aspect of the meaning of diakonos - a servant yes, but a servant of the king. The king's servant has a standing of authority. Consider the governmental title given to high ranking officials of the British crown - Minister of ______. The king's servant acts and speaks for the king and those who do not respect the servant insult the king.

And describing Priscilla and Aquila as helpers rather than co-workers goes against the consistent usage of synergos elsewhere. Just as with Phoebe, where a woman is included or described, the traditional translation downgrades the meaning. In all other places where diakonos refers to men, it is translated as "minister". The only time it is used in reference to a woman it is downgraded to "servant". And where synergos refers to men working with men they are afforded equal status of co-workers, but when its a woman working with a man, its meaning is downgraded to make her the helper of the man.

The cited lexicons tend to include the interpretations given centuries later to a word. (kind of like the faulty logic used by Norman...) The most reliable sources stay with its 1st Century usage.

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

... Both sides will say they are doing a systematic examination, but they come to different conclusions. Go back and look at the definition, oppose change, that is the clue. One group opposes change the other does not. EGW has made other statements as well about not being willing to change or give up cherished beliefs. So yes, I believe it is exactly the same sense as today.

Here is an interesting twist to consider on this topic in light of the above. I have read that the roles of women historically (OT) in Judaism were much more egalitarian (Consider Debra the judge, Hulda the prophet and other prominent women of the OT) That however began to shift during the intertestimental period, particularly in the last century BC. This issue, not unlike today was somewhat divisive in the time of Jesus. But here is the kicker, the conservative Jewish leaders and Rabbis advocated maintaining the centuries old traditions recognizing the full participation of women in leadership (remember in the theocracy of Judaism there wasn't a distinction between civil and religious). It was the nonconservative elements that were seeking to go the other way and change things.

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

...I think you don't know what you're talking about most of the time. That's my opinion...

Sorry I'm sure I have insulted you but that's just how I think.

As you say, that is your opinion, which you are entitled to hold.

And no, I am not insulted, or offended, by your posts since they are entirely reflective of you and your opinions. Your posts say vastly more about you than they do about me. And to be insulted or offended by them, I would have to give them some degree of credence.

Carry on!

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

prophesying does not involve a teaching or pastoring authority given by the church.

It is interesting to note that Ellen White did a lot of teaching with her prophesying and also had the authority given by the church to teach and pastor or minister. Her credentials as an Ordained Minister would qualify her on both accounts.

[Woody]

Quote:

If the world church voted in General Conference that women are to be ordained as elders and pastors, I would accept their decision, but this has not been done so far. Yet, even though it might some day make that decision, it doesn't mean it would be in accordance with the Bible.

John317 ... We totally differ with most all beliefs. But I have to say that with this one we agree and I am so impressed.

This is what I have said all along. There are many issues as all of you know that I have with the church. I speak about this issues. But I also support the church despite my personal differences. Like you say ... the church CAN and Does error. The church is made of human. Not all humans are willing to listen to the Holy Spirit. So, wrong decisions can and will be made even at the GC level.

But, what we all need to do is as you have indicated .... make your voice heard and then abide by the will of the church. I have had to do this at many a Board Meeting. I have spoken passionately ... then submitted.

An example of this was when people would be kicked out of membership by the church. I was opposed. I spoke out. Decision was made. The Pastor asked me to approach the people kicked out because he knew that I would do it lovingly and present the church's side in love. This was very painful. But I did my duty. I supported the church even though I strongly disagreed. And it was VERY painful for me to do.

I hope we can all unite. Let's not be critical of the Church and its people. WE can be critical of issues and debate THEM. But not the people who have the beliefs.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Norman

...I think you don't know what you're talking about most of the time. That's my opinion...

Sorry I'm sure I have insulted you but that's just how I think.

As you say, that is your opinion, which you are entitled to hold.

And no, I am not insulted, or offended, by your posts since they are entirely reflective of you and your opinions. Your posts say vastly more about you than they do about me. And to be insulted or offended by them, I would have to give them some degree of credence.

Carry on!

Tom

Tom ... You could not have said it better. It is obvious from an observer that one side tends to make things personal by attacking the church and its individual members as being less worthy to put it lightly. I won't repeat HIS words here.

But the other side just keeps to the issues and does not put down others with different views.

Thank you Tom for your example of Christian behavior. It is a good one for all of us.

[Tom Wetmore]

...None of these [women] were ordained...

In the NT, the concept of ordination was not as we practice it now. It was simply appointment. A person was appointed to a task or role by those who recognized their ability to fulfill that task or role. If they were described as having that role, they were recognized as being qualified. Luke recorded the common understanding and recognized Dorcas as a disciple, since she qualified to be called one. The same would hold true for Paul's recognition of a woman as a minister, women as elders and equal coworkers in the gospel ministry. He referred to himself as a diakonos and those who he referred to as his co-workers were likely of equal standing in the work.

Quote:

... There is no evidence that Junia is a female. You'll have to show me that one...

Oh, there is ample evidence. The earliest manuscripts, least likely to have been corrupted by errors or changes from the original, of this passage clearly list it as Junias, a female name. Later manuscripts change a letter to make it a male name. There is historical evidence that this was done intentionally sometime after the 4th Century because the Catholic Church hierarchy ordered it to be done, since it undermined their male only doctrines. The KJV was translated using only manuscripts dating back to about the 13th Century. More recent translations also used older manuscripts.

Quote:

...To say that [Phoebe] was the first bishop of Rome... That assumption is not sustainable.

That is not an original thought invented out of whole cloth by me. I would suggest you take that up with James White who as editor of the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald who published an article taking that position, and commented on it favorably way back in 1861. That is where I read it. Here is a link to it - Women as Preachers and Lecturers

Quote:

... [regarding 1 Timothy 5:2] If the word "mother was not there I might, "might" think about what you said but this is way too simple to see...

Yes it is simple to see if you compare and understand the meaning of the original Greek, as I explained already. Look at the preceding verse in which Paul tells Timothy to respect his male elders as his own father. (The parallel of equal treatment and regard should be obvious.) The root word for the elders is the same in both and it is the term consistently used more than 60 times throughout the NT to refer to the experienced/older leaders - elders. This is one more downgraded traditional meanings ascribed to an identical word when it refers to or clearly includes women. To say it merely means "elderly" here totally ignores the different Greek word that only means elderly that Paul used clearly to convey respect for older people in Titus. Paul obviously knew the correct would and the difference and used them intentionally.

Believe what you will and cling resolutely to your long cherished opinions... But that does not change the evidence or the facts.

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

"The women today are a far cry from what she was"

Ellen also stated this about the men who needed to be better ...

Quote:

There are some in _____ who ought to be men instead of boys . . . . {ChL 73.2}

She also described that .... " They will be humble, God-fearing men, not conservative , not policy men; but men who have moral independence and will move forward in the fear of the Lord. They will be kind, noble, courteous, yet they will not be swayed from the right path, but will proclaim the truth in righteousness whether men will hear or whether they will forbear.--Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 262-263. {ChL 73.3}

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen White was not using "conservative" in the sense in which we use it today.

I think it sounds just like the way we use it today ...

Does this sound familiar ...

Quote:

"Some were censuring our course, saying that we were not as conservative as we ought to be." 3T 312

Quote:

" The true Christian will not become self-centered or conservative in his plans. "Of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." As God's grace is given us freely, so it must be imparted to others." EGW RH. 5-30-1899

Quote:

"Conservative tradition received from educated men and from the writings of great men of the past are not all a safe guide for us in these last days; for the great struggle before us is such as the world has never seen. The brethren ... need to penetrate much deeper than their limited spiritual knowledge or their present habits or opinions would lead them to do." MS. 16, 1890.

Quote:

"you have shown by your general management that you are unworthy of the trust reposed in you. You have shown that you are conservative, and that your ideas are narrow." 5T 370

[Tom Wetmore]

Good points, CoAspen!

Focusing on the point of your last sentence, the ultimate resolution is reconciliation- being reconciled with our God and with one another. Where there is conflict, either between people or ideas, we must diligently and honestly strive to reconcile those differences.

Tom

[Woody]

Thank you CoA ...

You have made some good statements. I hope our church will do as you have suggested. And your points are good ones. We can't just pick and choose. We need to be consistent.

Let's go out and spread the good news. Hopefully when they come to our churches they find it IS good news.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

"In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth."--RH, May 18, 1911.

O.K. Here we have a clear statement that she was ordained by God, at an earlier time.

We know that the chruch issued her the credentials of an ordained minister, and so listed her in the YEARBOOK.

We know that they did so, without males laying hands on her, because they said that God had already ordained her.

So, the logical conclusion is that the denominational credentials were issues in response to EGWs comment as to God ordaining her in Portland, Maine. As she never objected to the credentials, she evidently accepted them as appropriate in view of her ordaination by God.

[Beryl]

Quote:

If we are going to go strictly by the Bible than I suggest we go back to it for way our churches should be built, their type of worship, their point of understanding, etc, etc. We should not deviate one iota, and specially rely on anything that was learned after that period of time.

Thank you, CoAspen, you have hit the nail on the head! The facts are that we are living in a different age -- that was the Patriarchal Age -- and, yes, there are many men who want to keep us in that age -- but we are NOT going back! What Jesus did was to lift the status of women, and regarded them as disciples.

Men have changed their ways of working (should they even think of driving a car? They didn't have any back then!) and the status of women has changed as well. Ellen White speaks often of men and women working as equals.

The reason why the vote failed at the GC was that it was outvoted by those who are, in fact, still living in a type of Patriarchal Age - that is their culture - male dominance - and they now comprise the greater part of the membership of our church. If we are to move forward in God's work, we must empower women of all nations to go and work for Him.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders , and let us run with perseverence the race marked out for us." Hebrews 12:1.

Beryl

[Gregory Matthews]

Qin Zheng Yi (QZY), a female, along with 3 other females, have been ordained as a pastor in EAst China.

QZY, against much Comunist opposition personally established a SDA Chruch of 500 members. By 2003, she had been a major influance in 4,000 becomming members in Sichuan Province. Today there are over 6,000 members there..

See SPECTRUM, vol. 35, # 4, (Fall 2007), page 20

NOTE: The SDA Chruch in Chna operates in a maner that is somewhat more independent than the SDA Church in most of the world.

It should be noted that during WW II, two women took over evangelism in a Scandanivan country, and converted people to the SDA church by the multiple 100s.

[Woody]

Quote:

NOTE: The SDA Chruch in Chna operates in a maner that is somewhat more independent than the SDA Church in most of the world.

As should all churches with such a cultural issue as women in ministry. We have to be wise. Some cultures would not be responsive to a woman pastor. We should not try to impose upon culture. But in a country where a woman is an equal and where a woman can be president ... then why should we hinder God's will.

And thank you Beryl. Your point about the use of new methods is good.

[Beryl]

One thing that does annoy me is the "ordaining" of men and the "commissioning" of women! Have you ever been to a commissioning service? I have. Let me briefly outline the normal ordination service and a commissioning service which I attended.

ORDINATION:-

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be ordained.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks.

Flowers for the wife and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

COMMISSIONING.

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be commissioned.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks (Yes,she is called Pastor in this conference, anyway).

Gift for the husband and flowers and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

CAN YOU SPOT THE DIFFERENCE???

Then -- WHAT IS ALL THE FUSS ABOUT! Is God smiling, or shaking His head in amazement?

Beryl

[Tom Wetmore]

Shhhh.... Don't disturb our delusions... They are working for us right now....

Tom

[Woody]

One thing that does annoy me is the "ordaining" of men and the "commissioning" of women! Have you ever been to a commissioning service? I have. Let me briefly outline the normal ordination service and a commissioning service which I attended.

ORDINATION:-

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be ordained.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks.

Flowers for the wife and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

COMMISSIONING.

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be commissioned.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks (Yes,she is called Pastor in this conference, anyway).

Gift for the husband and flowers and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

CAN YOU SPOT THE DIFFERENCE???

Then -- WHAT IS ALL THE FUSS ABOUT! Is God smiling, or shaking His head in amazement?

Beryl

Amazing. God willing I will witness this first hand myself. Maybe by then it will be ordination.

[Gregory Matthews]

Qin Zheng Yi (QZY) began her journey to Adventism by way of reading THE DESIRE OF AGES, as loaned to her by a SDA minister.

She has a daughter, Rebekah, who is in a doctoral program at Andrews University, and plans to return to China to establish a SDA Seminary.

[carolaa]

I think a district should have 5 to 8 churches and be assigned both a pastor and counselor. Of course, Christ will come before that ever happens. But I think our churches would become much healthier and sustain growth.

It sounds like you're very familiar with the church planting movement and Russell Burrill's books. Yes, if we followed the New Testament model and the early SDA church model, that is basically how it would be.

[Woody]

Quote:

She has a daughter, Rebekah, who is in a doctoral program at Andrews University, and plans to return to China to establish a SDA Seminary.

Conservatives would not approve of this because she might be telling a male what to do while establishing the Seminary.

[Woody]

One thing that does annoy me is the "ordaining" of men and the "commissioning" of women! Have you ever been to a commissioning service? I have. Let me briefly outline the normal ordination service and a commissioning service which I attended.

ORDINATION:-

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be ordained.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks.

Flowers for the wife and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

COMMISSIONING.

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be commissioned.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks (Yes,she is called Pastor in this conference, anyway).

Gift for the husband and flowers and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

CAN YOU SPOT THE DIFFERENCE???

Then -- WHAT IS ALL THE FUSS ABOUT! Is God smiling, or shaking His head in amazement?

Beryl

It is interesting all the qualifying labels we attach. My wife is not JUST a "licensed minister" ... She is a "licensed 'commissioned' minister". At least that is what her license says from the Conference office.

[carolaa]

One thing that does annoy me is the "ordaining" of men and the "commissioning" of women! Have you ever been to a commissioning service? I have. Let me briefly outline the normal ordination service and a commissioning service which I attended.

ORDINATION:-

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be ordained.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks.

Flowers for the wife and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

COMMISSIONING.

The usual welcome, hymn, Bible reading, prayer, etc.

The general information, background, attainments, etc. regarding the one to be commissioned.

The gathering around of all ordained persons present, the laying on of hands, and prayer.

The charge is given.

The new pastor speaks (Yes,she is called Pastor in this conference, anyway).

Gift for the husband and flowers and a gift for the new pastor.

A hymn and prayer, then the line up of persons wishing to shake hands and wish the couple/family God's blessings.

CAN YOU SPOT THE DIFFERENCE???

Then -- WHAT IS ALL THE FUSS ABOUT! Is God smiling, or shaking His head in amazement?

Beryl

I have been to both types of services, and you're absolutely right. Making this an issue is beyond ridiculous, imo.