Women in Ministry

[Woody]

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Soon if we are not careful we will be asking children to lead us.

Would you say that "women and children" are in the same catagory?

GOOD.

I think the Bible says something about children leading the church in the end times. I think they will lead out in preaching and prophecy.

Are you now adding children to your list that you are opposed to?

Should children not be allowed to preach? Should not women be allowed to preach? Where does it end?

[John317]

Would you care to make the case, based on Bible evidence, that God intends for women to be ordained in the church as pastors? For instance, how is Doug Batchelor either misusing Scripture or omitting important evidence that, if included, would cause one to arrive at the conclusion that the Bible supports the ordination of women to the gospel ministry?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Tom Wetmore]

...I believe in principle and truth to God's word...

And so do I and most all of those with whom I am acquainted who suuport women in minsitry and those very dedicated and conservative Biblical scholars that have concluded that the Bible in fact does support women in ministry.

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...and what you believe in ordination of women as Pastors and elders, is not truth.

Thanks for the condemnation of what I believe. What was that you said earlier about being judgmental...

Tom

[Denise]

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"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12.

Truth! Amen on that!

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Loss of confidence in the clear statements of Scripture. It undermines the authority of Scripture to say, "You can't take Bible statements about the relationship between men and women as inspired because they were influenced by a male-dominant culture." Christians who sweep aside plain statements of Scripture as outdated traditions or local customs are building on a fatal foundation of shifting sand. Soon every other Bible truth will be in danger of sliding away. They will soon say that the Lord's Supper, baptism, and marriage were all ancient traditions that no longer apply.

Amen! I love to hear truth!!! Thanks for sharing this with us Brother Olger!! I really enjoyed reading this.

[John317]

I would like to see someone show that Doug Batchelor's arguments are either fallacious or inadequate. As of now I completely agree with him, but I am willing to be persuaded to believe otherwise if someone can show clearly from the Bible evidence that Pastor Batchelor is in error.

Regards.

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

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God intends for women to be ordained in the church as pastors?

WE can talk until we are blue in the face. The Biblical case for women pastors has been made and settled in this church. We now DO have women Pastors. We as a church firmly and overwhelmingly have confirmed the role of women in leadership in the church. I was present for the vote at the General Conference in St. Louis.

What we have now is a small minority who have chosen to not accept the will and decision of the church body. They are free to have their opinion . But, it is just that ... their opinion.

The Biblical evidence for women in leadership has been hashed out over and over. Great scholars have presented their findings. The vote was taken. But is there room in the Bible for people to oppose it? Well, there is room for people to believe most anything.

But, evidence from scripture will not change the minds of those who believe their interpretations of scripture.

I find no fault in this. I believe it is fine for those to have their own interpretation of scripture. Let each one be convicted in their own mind. But, the will of the church has been made clear. Women will remain in leadership I predict. I don't see them stating ... "Oh we made a mistake" Women can't tell men what to do" "We will have to remove the Vice President from her office." NO. I think God is leading this church. I don't think God has lead us in the wrong direction.

I believe this because of my prayerful Spirit lead study of the Bible on women in leadership.

I have no doubt that others have done so also. Let each person study and believe as they are lead. This is why we have so many different denominations. Each person is lead by the Spirit in a different manner. I will not condemn those who believe differently in our church on the issue of women in leadership. I just hope they will not call us "blind, stupid fools" or even CLOSE to that. I think we need to respect our differences and believe the best in people.

[Denise]

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Thanks for the condemnation of what I believe. What was that you said earlier about being judgmental...

Tom

I am not condemning or being judgmental....I am confident in the truth, there is a difference....

[Tom Wetmore]

Focusing on ordination is getting the horse before the cart.

The question is whether Scripture supports the idea of women in ministry. If there is support, then ordination follows naturally upon those so gifted as a recognition by the body of Christ of that fact. But if we focus on needing evidence of ordination the evidence in Scripture for many things remains a bit sketchy and we will go round and round... Just as it may not be specifically mandated it is also not specifically prohibited. Here is the rule agreed upon by our early Adventist Church founders in just such a dilemma:

Quote:

If it be asked, Where are your plain texts of scripture for holding church property legally? we reply, The Bible does not furnish any; neither does it say that we should have a weekly paper, a steam printing-press, that we should publish books, build places of worship, and send out tents. Jesus says, 'Let your light so shine before men,' etc.'; but he does not give all the particulars how this shall be done. The church is left to move forward in the great work, praying for divine guidance, acting upon the most efficient plans for its accomplishment. We believe it safe to be governed by the following:

RULE

All means which, according to sound judgment, will advance the cause of truth, and are not forbidden by plain scripture declarations, should be employed. - James White,RH, April 26, 1860

The specific question that has been ignored thus far in this topic is what about the ordination of deaconesses. We do that and it is nowhere mentioned in Scripture that female deacons were ordained. Part of the problem is what EGW noted:

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The ordination by the laying on of hands, was, at a later date, greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as though a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work, as though virtue lay in the act of laying on of hands. We have, in the history of these two apostles, only a simple record of the laying on of hands, and its bearing upon their work. Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God himself; and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification. It was merely setting the seal of the church upon the work of God--an acknowledged form of designation to an appointed office. - 3SP 349.

Tom

[Woody]

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Denise said ..."and what you believe in ordination of women as Pastors and elders, is not truth."

Tom said... "Thanks for the condemnation of what I believe. What was that you said earlier about being judgmental"...

Tom ... what you have said is so correct. Saying someones personal belief is "not truth" is an offense to the Holy Spirit. We do not need to make such judgmental accusations against others.

Let's keep this civil and respectful. Express you beliefs. But do not characterize the personal beliefs of others. Especially when the church has made a stand and they are currently doing exactly what your personal belief is opposed to.

You have said that what Tom believes is not truth. He could some back and say that what Denise believes is not truth. We could have a little childish fit here. But instead ... lets just keep to the issues and present our ideas and interpretations.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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So, Norman, do you accept and support the ordination of women as local elders? How about the ordination of women as deaconesses?

And what exactly do you think the purpose of ordination is?

Tom

Ok Tom,

Let's look at the first deacons and see what we find. And in those days, when the number of the disciples were multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Acts 6: 1-6

It's pretty clear that the reason for the deacons ordination was so that the Apostles could continue preaching the Gospel.

Elders are not in the same situation. Their call is more in the ministering the word 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. 1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Here we see a different meaning to elder than what we are talking about. But the true meaning of an Elder is one who has by experience with God, been able to gain knowledge that will further the Gospel and the equip the people of God.

For women to become deconesses to help so that the Gospel can be preached by those who are able and been ordained, I say yes.

As for women Elders I would say no. This elders workd is very simular to that of a pastor and that is where I don't think women should be working. I just don't see that women as ordained pastors are what we need. Tom, that's just what I believe. I'm not forcing anyone to see it my way, because I believe that time will bear out the truth.

I enjoy posting and explaining myself though.

Norman

[Denise]

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I am beginning to understand you better though. You can make this leap because just like in the case of Norman telling us that we and our church are "blind, stupid fools" ... you could not see it.

No, I knew what he meant, and you misunderstood him, but he's explained that in his post already.

[Woody]

Focusing on ordination is getting the horse before the cart.

The question is whether Scripture supports the idea of women in ministry. If there is support, then ordination follows naturally upon those so gifted as a recognition by the body of Christ of that fact. But if we focus on needing evidence of ordination the evidence in Scripture for many things remains a bit sketchy and we will go round and round... Just as it may not be specifically mandated it is also not specifically prohibited. Here is the rule agreed upon by our early Adventist Church founders in just such a dilemma:

Quote:

If it be asked, Where are your plain texts of scripture for holding church property legally? we reply, The Bible does not furnish any; neither does it say that we should have a weekly paper, a steam printing-press, that we should publish books, build places of worship, and send out tents. Jesus says, 'Let your light so shine before men,' etc.'; but he does not give all the particulars how this shall be done. The church is left to move forward in the great work, praying for divine guidance, acting upon the most efficient plans for its accomplishment. We believe it safe to be governed by the following:

RULE

All means which, according to sound judgment, will advance the cause of truth, and are not forbidden by plain scripture declarations, should be employed. - James White,RH, April 26, 1860

The specific question that has been ignored thus far in this topic is what about the ordination of deaconesses. We do that and it is nowhere mentioned in Scripture that female deacons were ordained. Part of the problem is what EGW noted:

Quote:

The ordination by the laying on of hands, was, at a later date, greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as though a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work, as though virtue lay in the act of laying on of hands. We have, in the history of these two apostles, only a simple record of the laying on of hands, and its bearing upon their work. Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God himself; and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification. It was merely setting the seal of the church upon the work of God--an acknowledged form of designation to an appointed office. - 3SP 349.

Tom

Thank you Tom. I think this moves our discussions on this topic from what we "think" to what scripture and our Prophet teaches. Thank you for your contributions. They have been very insightful to me.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Would you say that "women and children" are in the same catagory?

GOOD.

I think the Bible says something about children leading the church in the end times. I think they will lead out in preaching and prophecy.

Are you now adding children to your list that you are opposed to?

Should children not be allowed to preach? Should not women be allowed to preach? Where does it end?

Have you heard the phrase "rightly dividing the word of truth"? The scripture says And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joe 2:28

That does not mean that children will become ordained pastors, it means that when the Spirit is poured out on all flesh that God's people who have sons and daughter will prophesy. Again this does not mean that 12 year old kids will become a pastors and lead churches. Then it says that the YOUNG MEN shall see visions. That translates to a youth if you study the words young Men.

There's nothing in there about leadership of the young. Read your Bible man.

[Tom Wetmore]

OK Norman, where in Scripture does it specifically say that female deacons were ordained? Have you compared the qualifications outlined by Paul for both elders and deacons? They look amazingly similar, including the point made so frequently by those opposed to women elders and pastors, that both elders and deacons are to be the husband of one wife. I asked you specifically about the ordination of female deacons. Could you finish answering that whole question.

As I asked Denise just a bit ago, do you know that Paul specifically identifies by name a female deacon, a female disciple, a female apostle and also refers to the female elders that were a part of the body of elders at the Church in Ephesus?

Tom

[Woody]

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Read your Bible man.

This kind of personal assertion is not becoming and not desireable or productive to the discussion at hand.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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This kind of personal assertion is not becoming and not desireable or productive to the discussion at hand.

Yes it is, it will encourage you to do some rescearch before you post ignorantly and look like you don't know your Bible. It's some helpful advice which you should take.

[Woody]

Quote:

I am beginning to understand you better though. You can make this leap because just like in the case of Norman telling us that we and our church are "blind, stupid fools" ... you could not see it.

No, I knew what he meant, and you misunderstood him, but he's explained that in his post already.

Yes Denise ... I did see his explanation. He indicates that we are not "blind, stupid fools" but in his words "our church is not far behind".

I do not find these attacks on the church I love as necessary nor edifying.

[Woody]

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Yes it is, it will encourage you to do some rescearch before you post ignorantly and look like you don't know your Bible. It's some helpful advice which you should take.

I don't need your critical inaccurate assessment of me. I do not believe I am as ignorant as you describe me. But under the circumstances ... I need not defend myself. I think you are doing a fine job of it yourself.

My personal knowledge of the Bible is not something I will defend. You can attack my interpretations and the thoughts that I present. But, please leave off the personal characterizations of my knowledge of the Bible. That is not the discussion of this thread.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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OK Norman, where in Scripture does it specifically say that female deacons were ordained?

Let me start out by saying, that the meaning of deacon deaconess as we use it today is not the same as it was in Apostlic times. A deacon then was considered a minister. Today it's a helper, an assistant to the pastor. So if you are asking me if women in today's undersatnding should be ordained as deaconesses, yes is my answer. If they are to be ordained in the fashion of the deacons in Apostolic times, I say no.

That's why I have not seen any ordination of women deacons in the NT.

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As I asked Denise just a bit ago, do you know that Paul specifically identifies by name a female deacon, a female disciple, a female apostle and also refers to the female elders that were a part of the body of elders at the Church in Ephesus?

Please post those verses, I'd like to study them and see what the original language says.

Thanks

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Yes Denise ... I did see his explanation. He indicates that we are not "blind, stupid fools" but in his words "our church is not far behind".

I do not find these attacks on the church I love as necessary nor edifying.

What about Jesus' words which are far more harsh then what I said?

[Woody]

Personally ... I would not place you in the same status as Jesus.

But, if you feel it is your ordained duty to chastise the church then I will leave that between you and God.

However ... personally I will not accept your characterizations.

[John317]

We as a church firmly and overwhelmingly have confirmed the role of women in leadership in the church. I was present for the vote at the General Conference in St. Louis.

What we have now is a small minority who have chosen to not accept the will and decision of the church body.

You say it was "firm and overwhelming." What was the vote?

Did the church in General Conference vote that women are to be ordained as pastors throughout the world church?

Do you know if the official results of that vote can be accessed online?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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However ... personally I will not accept your characterizations.

Well then maybe you will accept your own words.

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12-17-07 Redwood said

Just look around. The church has authorized women in leadership over men. If you didn't know it ... there are many women serving as Pastors. My wife has two churches. The General Conference Session has settled it as has the Lord. They authorized a woman as Vice President ... what more proof do you need. If she is not in leadership over men ... then just who is in leadership?

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"Resolved, that the highest authority under God among Seventh day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people, as expressed in the decisions of the General Conference when acting within its proper jurisdiction; and that such decisions should be submitted to by all without exception." RH. vol 50 No.14, p.106 ( Also in the church manual.)

"But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." {9T 260.1} " the majority of the church is a power which should control its individual member" 5T 107

Read your Bibles. We are to follow the Bible and not old traditions and cultural mandates.

Church Manual as per GC 2005

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29 CHAPTER 6

Church Membership

Membership on a Spiritual Basis

The serious, solemn obligations of church membership should be impressed on everyone who applies for admittance to the church. All should be faithfully taught what it means to become a member of the body of Christ. Only those giving evidence of having experienced the new birth, and who are enjoying a spiritual experience in the Lord Jesus, are prepared for acceptance into church membership. Thorough instruction in the fundamental teachings and related practices of the church should be given to every candidate for church membership before being baptized and received into church fellowship. Each person seeking admittance to the church should be informed of the principles for which the church stands.

Redwood said #107331

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This is why I am so opposed to having membership. It is just an excuse for the church to sit in judgment which is only the preogrative of God and even God doesn't do it until the end of time. Read about the Wheat and the Tares sometime. The Tares are to grow together with the Wheat and have full advantages of being in the Sun with the Wheat. Another Evil tradition of the Church is Membership. The sooner we get back the the ways of the Early Church the better.

Redwood also said

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The requirements of joining the SDA church are much more strict than joining the Body of Christ and having your name on the Lambs Book of Life. Christ accepts you as you are. The SDA church has a long list of sins that you have to overcome BEFORE you can be accepted and be baptized. In ACTS it talks about the special outpouring of the HOLY SPIRIT AFTER BAPTISM for newness of life. But the SDA church expects you to have newness and perfection of life BEFORE they will baptise you. For a complete list of all the sins not allowed see the Church Manual page 162 or the section on Reasons Members may be disciplined.

The judgment of the saints by the Church does not stop before baptism. It continues day after day so that there is an entire page(162)in the Church Manual listing all the sins that you can be kicked out of the church for. And "even after sincere confession". I thought that judging was the preogrative of GOD and GOD alone. But, if you drink Tea or Coffee or lie or steal then you can't be in the SDA church.

WELL ... I do have to ammend that. The church does allow one exception to stealing. They do not consider it a test of fellowship if you steal GOD's Tithe. If you steal from your neighbor you can be kicked out of the church but if you just steal from God that is not considered a major offense.

and finally Redwood said

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Yes Denise ... I did see his explanation. He indicates that we are not "blind, stupid fools" but in his words "our church is not far behind".

I do not find these attacks on the church I love as necessary nor edifying.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Mat 12:37

[olger]

It wasn't, John. The GC votes of 1990 & 1995 still stand as a bulwark against those who would re-write roles.

Paulsen, coming as he does from a feminist culture (Norway) is passionate about women's rights and spent most of the Sabbath sermon in St. Louis boasting about how progressive we Adventists are to appoint a woman vice president. Big deal. The instatement of Mark Finley as Vice President was infinitely more beneficial to the church.

There are numerous worthy issues that I feel that his time (7-9-05) would have been better spent on. In fact, I would rather have listened to Phil Samaan speak an extra hour. But that's the direction we went when we lost Bob Folkenberg (I'll see Bob this weekend).

Personally, I find the continued emphasis by the GC President on women and young people to be getting a little stale now. And the feminist bit is not encouraging either. Where in all the hoopla did we see any emphasis on the role of a mother in the home? The church's position seems to be more in line with the worldly feminist agenda.

But God still has a plan for the Advent Movement, and it doesn't revolve around social salvation, but rather around spiritual consecration.

Incidentally, Ted N.C. Wilson came a lot closer to becoming the GC president in 2005 than most of us realize. I look for a change in 2010.

All the best,

oG

[John317]

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OK Norman, where in Scripture does it specifically say that female deacons were ordained?

Let me start out by saying, that the meaning of deacon deaconess as we use it today is not the same as it was in Apostlic times. A deacon then was considered a minister. Today it's a helper, an assistant to the pastor.

I don't have time to do a complete word study right now, but if you were correct in what you say here, Paul would be contradicting the Holy Spirit's instructions in 1 Tim 2: 8-15; 1 Cor. 14: 34-37. It's obvious from what Paul says here that this was the policy in all the Christian churches that Paul organized. Those mentioned in Romans 16: 1, 12 were no exception to the rule.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"