Women in Ministry

[Tom Wetmore]

Good point Mel about the bloc voting. There were a number of reports of the substantial pressure imposed on delegates from certain divisions to vote as a bloc against WO the first go round and against NAD's request to go on ahead on their own. If individuals had been allowed to vote their own convictions on this issue, the vote may well have gone quite differently.

But I also find it curious how those against WO so vigorously proclaim this vote to be an expression of the will of God on the issue. Apparently God is wavering in His opinion since he seems to be speaking with such a divided voice and that the second vote was much closer than the first. With a divided vote, if it is God speaking through the GC Session what exactly is He saying? And which side of the issue is actually voicing His opinion on the topic?

Tom

[melvin mccarty]

Yet there are still people who insist that God works through the political manouvering to express His will! I can't buy that.

mel

[Woody]

And when the vote to approve WO comes down as it will .... they will say the Devil influenced it. Give me a break. These people think they have a direct pipe line to perfectionism.

[olger]

I believe the vote was about 49% versus 51%. Many of those who voted against female ordination admitted that they were only voting that way to not offend the other bloc. It can no way be considered to prove that the issue was decided Biblically.

mel

Hi Mel.

At the 1995 Utrecht session of the General Conference, by a vote of 1481 to 673, the worldwide church refused to grant the North American Division's request to ordain women in its own territory.

At the 1990 Indianapolis session of the General Conference, by a vote of 1173 to 377, the world field rejected the call to ordain women as pastors.

Regards,

oG

[Woody]

OK ... both of you .... could we have some proof instead of opinions?

[Woody]

We all know that the Adventist Church does not allow woman's ordination. But if a young female feels God's call to ministry how can she respond to it? Here's one woman's story.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2007-1534&page=8

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Tom Said

Quote:

It is only a possibility if you ignore the context and the primary meaning of the Greek without mixing it up with 13th Century English which really was a very poor translation, if not a complete mistranslation. And you have to accept that Paul would have described a woman prostatis as merely a helper/servant using the same term he consistently used to describe men, including himself, in that position as ministers - diakonos. True enough that diakonos literally means "servant". But the full meaning is a special order of servants - servants of the king.

And the word Paul used to describe Priscilla and Aquila (the order with the woman first is so unusual that it must be given significance of her special status) is sunergos which means coworkers. This is not a designation of subservience in the work but of equal status. They were not Paul's helpers but his coworkers or fellow-workers, as correctly translated in all versions other than the KJV.

I'll look into this more Tom, but the more that I look at this the more I see this: "The noun succorer has one meaning:

Meaning #1: someone who gives help in times of need or distress or difficulty"

suc·cor (skr)

n.

1. Assistance in time of distress; relief.

2. One that affords assistance or relief.

tr.v. suc·cored, suc·cor·ing, suc·cors

To give assistance to in time of want, difficulty, or distress

Synonyms: help, aid, assist, succor

These verbs mean to contribute to the fulfillment of a need, the furtherance of an effort, or the achievement of a purpose or end. Help and aid, the most general, are frequently interchangeable: a medication that helps (or aids) the digestion.

Help, however, sometimes conveys a stronger suggestion of effectual action: I'll help you move the piano.

Assist usually implies making a secondary contribution or acting as a subordinate: Apprentices assisted the chef in preparing the banquet.

Succor refers to going to the relief of one in want, difficulty, or distress: "Mr. Harding thought . . . of the worn-out, aged men he had succored" Anthony Trollope. See Also Synonyms at improve.

The deffinition: "helper in a time of need," makes sense since Paul then mention Priscilla and Aquila as his helpers/coworkers in the Gospel work(I understood that to mean the same in this case since I have read the book of Acts). To me, it would seem that he would mention the three together if they were doing the same work with him.

I see her as a succorer in the sense of one who takes care of the needs of many. That's why Paul tell the Romans to give her (assist her in) what ever she needs.

Here's about the best translation I have seen for this verse: (GW) Rom 16: 2 Give her a Christian welcome that shows you are God's holy people. Provide her with anything she may need, because she has provided help to many people, including me.

Rom 16:3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my coworkers in the service of Christ Jesus.

These two are in a different class.

You said

Quote:

And the word Paul used to describe Priscilla and Aquila (the order with the woman first is so unusual that it must be given significance of her special status

I can't agree with that Tom because their names are mentioned 6 times in the NT and 3 times she is mentioned first and 3 times he is mentioned first. Why he does it is beyond me, maybe he was thinking, when in Rome...

Norman

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Hey Tom I decided to check out "succorer" for myself and this is what I found: Prostatis: feminine derivitive of pro-is'-tay-mee

From G4253 and G2476; to stand before, that is, (in rank) to preside, or (by implication) to practise: - maintain, be over, rule. a Patroness: that is, assistant: succorer:

Merriam-Webster online dictionary

succor One entry found.

succor[2,transitive verb]

Main Entry: 2succor

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): suc·cored; suc·cor·ing \ˈsə-k(ə-)riŋ\

Date: 13th century

: to go to the aid of : relieve

This leaves room for her being a servant as well since in the next verse Paul says Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Rom 16:3 This leaves a possiblity that they were working with Paul in the Gospel and Phebe was a servant and a helper with their Physical needs only. This is a possiblity.

It is only a possibility if you ignore the context and the primary meaning of the Greek without mixing it up with 13th Century English which really was a very poor translation, if not a complete mistranslation. And you have to accept that Paul would have described a woman prostatis as merely a helper/servant using the same term he consistently used to describe men, including himself, in that position as ministers - diakonos. True enough that diakonos literally means "servant". But the full meaning is a special order of servants - servants of the king.

And the word Paul used to describe Priscilla and Aquilla (the order with the woman first is so unusual that it must be given significance of her special status) is sunergos which means coworkers. This is not a designation of subservience in the work but of equal status. They were not Paul's helpers but his coworkers or fellow-workers, as correctly translated in all versions other than the KJV.

Tom

It's significant that Paul wrote First Timothy to the Ephesians, the home-church of Priscilla and Aquila (see Acts 18: 18-19, 21). It was in this very church at Ephesus that Priscilla knew Scriptrue well enough to help instruct Apollos in A. D. 51 (Acts 18: 26). She had probably learned from Paul himself for another three years while he stayed at Ephesus teaching, "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20: 27; cf. v. 31; also 1 Cor. 16: 19). No doubt many other women in Ephesus had followed her example and also had learned from Paul. Although they later went to Rome, we find Aquila and Priscilla back in Ephesus at the end of Paul's life (2 Tim. 4: 19), about A.D. 67. Therefore, it is likely that they were in Ephesus in A.D. 65, about the time Paul wrote 1 Timothy (about fourteen years after Priscilla had helped instruct Apollos)/ Yet Paul does not allow even well-educated Priscilla or any other well-educated women in Ephesus to teach men in the public assembly of the church. The reason was not lack of education, but the order of creation which God established between men and women.

1 Cor. 11: 5 says women may pray and prophesy in the church, but this "prophesying" does not contradict Paul's instructions in 1 Tim 2: 9 since prophesying does not involve a teaching or pastoring authority given by the church.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

We all know that the Adventist Church does not allow woman's ordination. But if a young female feels God's call to ministry how can she respond to it? Here's one woman's story.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2007-1534&page=8

Anyone's "call" to any kind of ministry must be tested by the Bible. An individual claim to have experienced a call from God must always be tested by subjecting it to the words of God in Scripture. The Holy Spirit who empowers spiritual gifts is also the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible, and He does not want us to use his gifts in disobedience to his words.

A woman may certainly be "called" to minister. Many opportunities for full-time occupational ministry exist within the local church and elswhere, apart from being a teaching pastor or an elder-- for example, church staff positions in counseling, women's ministries, Christian education, and children's ministries, as well as ministries in music and worship, campus student ministries, evangelistic ministries, ministries to the poor, and administrative responsibilities that do not involve functioning in the elder's role of government over the entire church.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Tom Wetmore]

It is quite curiously revealing that neither you nor Norman actually directly address what I post or answer the questions I pose. Rather adroit side-stepping dance I see.

Tom

[Denise]

Alright Norman and John317!! Proof and not opinion, that's what I like to hear! Praise God for his word! The proof is in His Word! Amen!

[John317]

I believe the vote was about 49% versus 51%. Many of those who voted against female ordination admitted that they were only voting that way to not offend the other bloc. It can no way be considered to prove that the issue was decided Biblically.

mel

Even the vote of the General Conference is subject to error, of course. Provided it does not instruct us to disobey a plain command of God, however, we should follow its decisions. Ellen White was asked by the General Conference to go Australia and she went, even though she was not convinced that God wanted her to go.

If the world church voted in General Conference that women are to be ordained as elders and pastors, I would accept their decision, but this has not been done so far. Yet, even though it might some day make that decision, it doesn't mean it would be in accordance with the Bible.

If, as you say, the last vote taken on the issue was 49% for women ordination and 51 % against it, I would expect that it will be voted on in every General Conference until it is finally passed.

Do you have any documented proof that this was the vote at the last General Conference?

Olger has stated, "At the 1990 Indianapolis session of the General Conference, by a vote of 1173 to 377, the world field rejected the call to ordain women as pastors." That looks very much to me like a landslide or overwhelming vote against ordination.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Tom,

There's lots of good information that's been posted which you could get what ever answer you're looking for.

Nevertheless what specically do you want answered?

Norman

[John317]

It is quite curiously revealing that neither you nor Norman actually directly address what I post or answer the questions I pose. Rather adroit side-stepping dance I see.

Tom

Give me time, friend. I just got on the computer after being away for a day. I can only write so fast and so many posts. Sorry to be so slow. I will try to write some more tomorrow because I have to go to work in an hour or so, and I will soon be gone for a week on a trip to TN to see my father. But I'll be back.

[Tom Wetmore]

Norman,

That is a rather novel approach to Biblical interpretation. It would appear that you must assume that Paul spoke and wrote English, the same archaic English of King James.

I have pointed out the meaning of key words of the 1st Century Greek that Paul actually used to write Romans. The primary and fundamental meaning of the Greek word prostatis is not succorer. So the meaning of succor has no relevance to understanding the original Greek that Paul used.

Tom

[John317]

Alright Norman and John317!! Proof and not opinion, that's what I like to hear! Praise God for his word! The proof is in His Word! Amen!

I'm studying all the verses in the NT related to church government and particularly in regard to elders and deacons. I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to write much more until I get back on Dec. 28 from a trip to TN. In the meantime I'm studying the issue and writing, so, God willing, I should have something to contribute on my return.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

...

I came across a good statement from Ellen G. White about those who do not want to accept anything but the old traditional ways ....

Quote:

"But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative , and seek to avoid discussion." 5T 706-7

No one here that I know of is seeking to avoid discussion. I love discussion and I enjoy it when everyone feels free to express themselves, provided it is done in an attitude of Christian love. Ellen White was not using "conservative" in the sense in which we use it today.

[Denise]

Quote:

I'm studying all the verses in the NT related to church government and particularly in regard to elders and deacons. I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to write much more until I get back on Dec. 28 from a trip to TN. In the meantime I'm studying the issue and writing, so, God willing, I should have something to contribute on my return.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

What part of TN are you going to? Norman and I live in Georgia, not far from TN. Your welcomed to visit us anytime your in the area. You enjoy your trip in TN, and will be looking forward in hearing what you have found. God Bless! :)

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Tom I did not see this post and am replying now.

Quote:

The female disciple is Tabitha (Dorcas) identified by Luke in Acts 9:36. The Greek word used is mathetria the feminine form of mathetes the word consistently translated as disciple. I have also pointed out that Mary, sister of Martha, was treated by Jesus himself as a disciple by allowing her to sit at his feet to learn, which was the posture of a disciple before the Master. And EGW specifically confirms that Jesus commissioned her to be the first to preach the gospel of His resurrection.

None of these were ordained

Quote:

Junias is identified by Paul in Romans 16:7 as one who was noteworthy among the apostles and who predated his own conversion, which could have put her as being among those who may have been at Pentecost.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

There is no evidence that Junia is a female. You'll have to show me that one. A female kinsmen who was in prison with Paul? I don't know Tom that's a hard one to swallow

Quote:

We have already spoken of Phoebe the minister/leader who was arguably the first bishop of Rome by Paul's appointment spelled out in Romans 16:1-2.

Not a chance I don't buy that. There's just not enough proof to make that statement. The translation lends a lot more to the fact that she was a helper. When time were hard and when the saints had been beaten, she was there to minister to their needs and when ever a siant came to twln there she was offering a helping hand. To say that she was the first bishop of Rome, common Tom. That assumption is not sustainable.

Quote:

I would also note that early historical records identify a number of female bishops in the first couple centuries of the church.

Yes and there's a historical record about Anitochus Epiphanes that people tell means something quite different from what we believe.

God's word and the Spirit along with true history can help us find out some of these things. I don't buy a lot of it though, just like I don't subscribe to the new translations that come from corrupt manuscripts.

Quote:

Paintings from that time clearly depict the ordination service of a woman as a bishop as confirmed by the written description. And there is a tomb that has the inscription identifying its occupant as being a bishop who was a woman. Sorry, I don't have the reference at my fingertips.

That's not enough to make a doctrine or teaching stand. Who knows who wrote what and for what reason.

Quote:

And 1 Timothy 5:2 refers to the women elders among the body of elders that had ordained Timothy (1 Timothy 4:12).

Tom you can't be serious, this is clear.

1Ti 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. He's talking about older women not elders as in ordained elders. That is really simple to see and I am beginning to think you are grabbing at straws Tom. If the word "mother was not there I might, "might" think about what you said but this is way too simple to see.

Tom I'm disappointed in this. I thought you really had some proof. I'm not being sacarstic I'm just stunned that this is so weak

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Norman,

That is a rather novel approach to Biblical interpretation. It would appear that you must assume that Paul spoke and wrote English, the same archaic English of King James.

I have pointed out the meaning of key words of the 1st Century Greek that Paul actually used to write Romans. The primary and fundamental meaning of the Greek word prostatis is not succorer. So the meaning of succor has no relevance to understanding the original Greek that Paul used.

Tom if that's what you want to believe, what can I say? You have weak arguments and you post as though you are one who knows about the Greek, but honestly (without insult) I think you don't know what you're talking about most of the time. That's my opinion which you will no doubt disregard, but that how I view what you post. It's kind of a let down. You think you're having a good discussion with someone of knowledge in theses matters, but come to find that it isn't so.

Sorry I'm sure I have insulted you but that's just how I think.

Norman

[John317]

Norman,

That is a rather novel approach to Biblical interpretation. It would appear that you must assume that Paul spoke and wrote English, the same archaic English of King James.

I have pointed out the meaning of key words of the 1st Century Greek that Paul actually used to write Romans. The primary and fundamental meaning of the Greek word prostatis is not succorer. So the meaning of succor has no relevance to understanding the original Greek that Paul used.

Tom

The word, prostatis, Strong's # 4368, occurs in the NT only once, in Romans 16: 2. There it has the meaning of "patroness, protectress." The NKJV and NASB both translate it as "helper," and the NIV, "a great help."

Thayer's Greek/English Lexicon, under prostatis, gives: "a. properly, a woman set over others. b. a female guardian, protectress, patronesss, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources [A.V. succourer]..."

The noun, synergos, Strong's # 4904, means a "fellow laborer, associate, helper." It is found in Romans 16: 3, 9, 21; 2 Cor. 1: 24. Timothy is called a "fellow worker," and in 1 Cor. 1: 24, Paul describes himself and Timothy as "fellow workers" along with the all the members of the Corinthian church. The idea is that all Christians are to be fellow workers in the furtherance of the gospel. It does not contradict other instructions of Paul, such as those found in 1 Tim. 2: 9 and elsewhere.

(The verb, synergeo, Strongs # 4903, occurs in a total of 5 verses in the New Testament: 1 Cor. 16: 16; 2 Cor 6: 1; Mark 16: 20; James 2: 22; and Romans 8: 28. In Mark 16: 20, it carries the meaning of "to assist, afford aid to," and in 1 Cor. 16: 16, it means "to cooperate, to work together with.")

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

EGW has made other statements as well about not being willing to change or give up cherished beliefs. So yes, I believe it is exactly the same sense as today.

Evangelism (1946), page 362, paragraph 3

Chapter Title: Establishing and Holding New Converts

Drifting Away From Bible Landmarks.--

Many know so little about their Bibles that they are unsettled in the faith. They remove the old landmarks, and fallacies and winds of doctrine blow them hither and thither. Science, falsely so-called, is wearing away the foundation of Christian principle; and those who once were in the faith drift away from the Bible landmarks, and divorce themselves from God, while still claiming to be His children.--Review and Herald, Dec. 29, 1896.

[John317]

...Both sides will say they are doing a systematic examination, but they come to different conclusions. Go back and look at the definition, oppose change, that is the clue. One group opposes change the other does not. EGW has made other statements as well about not being willing to change or give up cherished beliefs. So yes, I believe it is exactly the same sense as today.

It is not a question of change per se. It is a question of whether the change is in accordance with the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. The church should not make changes just because of pressures from society; they should be supported by, or not contradict, a clear teaching of Scripture. If Scripture teaches that women should be ordained as pastors and elders in the church, then we ought to support it wholeheartedly. But, on the other hand, if the Bible teaches that males alone are to be the pastors and elders, then we need to bring our thinking and practice into line with Scripture. After all, we need to think very carefully before we change a belief and practice of the church for two thousand years, since the time of Jesus and Paul.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

I'm studying all the verses in the NT related to church government and particularly in regard to elders and deacons. I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to write much more until I get back on Dec. 28 from a trip to TN. In the meantime I'm studying the issue and writing, so, God willing, I should have something to contribute on my return.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

What part of TN are you going to? Norman and I live in Georgia, not far from TN. Your welcomed to visit us anytime your in the area. You enjoy your trip in TN, and will be looking forward in hearing what you have found. God Bless!

I'm going to Chattanooga. Once on the way to my dad's I turned down the wrong road and found myself in about 10 minutes heading across the Georgia border. That is how close it is. Thank you!

[Tom Wetmore]

... After all, we need to think very carefully before we change a belief and practice of the church for two thousand years, since the time of Jesus and Paul.

This is a conservative statement. (Precisely the attitude spoken of by EGW.)

Tom