Women in Ministry

[Taylor]

Whose law...does he say that? It might have been the local laws that prevented women from speaking up in church.

Also, there are laws that were God-given that were given for a specific time in history, for a specific people or for a specific situation. The 10 commandments do not fall into this catagory, of course, but other laws did change their application through time.

In your opinion does this mean that women can never preach in church, or give the Sabbath School Lesson? I am not trying to pick a fight just trying to understand. In my opinion, if you were to take this verse literally at face value without any consideration to any other texts then no woman could ever speak anything in church I think one does need to look into the context of what was said. There are Bible verses that often seem to "contradict" others so we have to see the big picture or we would be confused on other topics like the state of the dead etc.

[Taylor]

And by the way Norman, I may not always agree with you but I have a feeling that if I were to meet you in person we'd get along fine and I would enjoy being your friend.

[Woody]

Quote:

In your opinion does this mean that women can never preach in church, or give the Sabbath School Lesson?

Correct me if I am wrong ... but Taylor ... I think he is stating that women can speak ... they just can't possibly be "ordained" and speak.

[Woody]

And by the way Norman, I may not always agree with you but I have a feeling that if I were to meet you in person we'd get along fine and I would enjoy being your friend.

Yeah ... He and his wife look like a nice couple to get to know.

[Taylor]

Quote:

In your opinion does this mean that women can never preach in church, or give the Sabbath School Lesson?

Correct me if I am wrong ... but Taylor ... I think he is stating that women can speak ... they just can't possibly be "ordained" and speak.

Perhaps so, but if you take the verse literally it says nothing about ordination it just says they can't speak. That is why one must look into the "why" behind that text.

I don't think ordination or the lack there of should stop any man or woman from the calling God has given them.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

And by the way Norman, I may not always agree with you but I have a feeling that if I were to meet you in person we'd get along fine and I would enjoy being your friend.

Yeah ... He and his wife look like a nice couple to get to know.

Agreed! :)

[Denise]

Quote:

Yeah ... He and his wife look like a nice couple to get to know.

Quote:

Agreed!

Thanks, you guys are sweet!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Whose law...does he say that? It might have been the local laws that prevented women from speaking up in church.

Also, there are laws that were God-given that were given for a specific time in history, for a specific people or for a specific situation. The 10 commandments do not fall into this catagory, of course, but other laws did change their application through time.

In your opinion does this mean that women can never preach in church, or give the Sabbath School Lesson? I am not trying to pick a fight just trying to understand. In my opinion, if you were to take this verse literally at face value without any consideration to any other texts than no woman could ever speak anything in church I think one does need to look into the context of what was said. There are Bible verses that often seem to "contradict" others so we have to see the big picture or we would be confused on other topics like the state of the dead etc.

Paul would not let local laws interfere with the church of God.

Also, don't just look at what he says, try to think about why he said that. That is what I am hoping folks can figure out without my telling them. It's powerful once you see it.

Norman

I'd get along with everyone, I don't count anyone as enemies and love all people.

[Woody]

Quote:

Paul would not let local laws interfere with the church of God.

This is where I think we differ.

[Taylor]

I believe that Norman that you like everyone.

I see many cultural reasons why perhaps women weren't generally allowed to speak in church but I do not see Jesus ever preaching that women shouldn't speak in church as if it were a divine mandate. I do see it as as being for cultural reasons.

The only other conclusion that could be derived from that is that women are never to say anything in church no matter the timing, the occasion, the reason or the culture. That doens't ring true with me according to everything I have read in the Bible and in EGW. I don't think Paul was being mean or bigoted, I just think he had his reasons for saying that and I don't believe his reasons were what some think they were.

But I still like you anyway. :)

[Woody]

Yep .... exactly right Taylor.

Norman we still like you.

[Beryl]

Hey, Norman, settle down a bit, and read what the Scripture actually says, not just what you think it says.

quote] Don't tell me it's cultural when Paul states that this is a law.

[Woody]

ROFL

[Woody]

PS. Norman ... we STILL love you.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Hey, Norman, settle down a bit, and read what the Scripture actually says, not just what you think it says.

quote] Don't tell me it's cultural when Paul states that this is a law.

Whose law?

[ Quote:as also saith the law.

Which law?

Quote:In the Bible men had more than one wife and it was still wrong.

2 Samuel 12:7,8 "....This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says, 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I [God] gave your master's house to you, AND YOUR MASTER'S WIVES INTO YOUR ARMS...' "

So, did God do what was wrong? Be careful how you answer this!

God was working in the context of the culture of that time. In the same way He was working in the culture of the time in the New Testament. And He is working within the culture of our time, despite what SOME men may be trying to resist.

God bless,

Beryl

The law in this case refers to the law of Moses. research the word. Paul was never interested in the church being governed by the laws of the land. You can see this by reading all his letters. He would always advocate being obedient to the laws of the land but this has nothing to do with the civil laws. Because you don't understand what he means you come to this conclusion.

You say which law? The one that he just told us about concerning women in the church.

As for your point about David you've got that mixed up quite a bit. Knowing the kind of man that David was, except for his fall, he would never have slept with those women. He did not want to kill the Lord's annointed while Saul was trying to kill him. He even regretted taking a peice of Saul's garment. David had morals, dignity and a godly conscience. God did not give him those women to sleep with. Saul dies so now they sleep with David and David dies ahd they are passed on to the next king. Is this what you are saying that God is doing? Kings were to have only one wife, period. Those women became servants. I don't know of any instance where Sauls wives became pregnant by David. He also passed on his morals to Solomon. Notice his words to his mother. 1Ki 2:22 And king Solomon answered and said unto his mother, And why dost thou ask Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? ask for him the kingdom also; for he is mine elder brother; even for him, and for Abiathar the priest, and for Joab the son of Zeruiah.

He had a keen sense of what was right and what was wrong. He could spot Adonijah's plan a mile away when Bathsheba could not.

What would it mean if Adonijah married Abishag?

You have mis-judged God in this assumption of yours. Think about what you have suggested!

Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. Deu 17:15-17

This was sin and for you to suggest that God gave David Sauls wives to be as wives for him to sleep with is to not know God. You have gone to far with this idea that you support and really need to be more thoughtful.

There is some things you don't understand and I know this and that is why you make these statements.

keep studying 1 Cor 14: 34 and ask yourself why did Paul write that? Really pray about this. I say this because if I tell you, you won't listen to me because you think I'm way off. If you find it all will be well.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

The only other conclusion that could be derived from that is that women are never to say anything in church no matter the timing, the occasion, the reason or the culture.

Keep looking my friend and it will come to you as it did to me. Once you see it you will understand the beauty in it.

Norman

[olger]

H Beryl. Thanks for your post. I support the ministries of women that the Bible does not restrict. Whether we like it or not, leadership is still male in the Bible. Paul's injunction regarding women is not cultural, any more than his denunciation of immorality (1 Thess. 4:1-7) was cultural. Notice that God (through Paul) appeals not to culture but to the creation order in his inspired passage (1 Timothy 2).

As to a man counseling a woman alone, I agree. It should never occur. My wife & I always work together with a single woman.

I appreciate your service to the church, and our rewards await us on That Day.

oG

[olger]

Norman said

Quote:

Paul was never interested in the church being governed by the laws of the land.

olger said Amen !

:)

[Beryl]

OK, Norman, so David only had one wife with whom he slept. OK? Is that what you are saying?

Then please explain to me 2 Samuel 3:2-5. Let me quote it.

"Sons were born to David in Hebron:

His firstborn was Amnon, the son of Ahinoam of Jezreel;

his second, Kileab the son of Abigail, the widow of Nabal of Carmel;

the third, Absolom the son of Maacah daughter of Taimai king of Geshur;

the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith;

the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital;

and the sixth, Ithream the son of David's wife Eglah,

These were born to David in Hebron."

So, if David only slept with one of them, how did the others get pregnant? The Bible tells me that these were all David's sons. You say they cannot be. Who is right?

David had more wives than these. 2 Samuel 5:13-16. "After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him. These are the names of the children born to him there: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan, Solomon, Ibhar, Elishua, Nepheg, Japhia, Elishama, Eliada and Eliphelet." And, don't forget, these are only the sons, and I am sure, on the law of averages, he also had daughters. In addition, it was normal for them to only count the firstborn son of each union, which would indicate that he took to himself at least 11 wives and concubines (including Bathsheba). And God counted David as one of His friends!

Now, if you are wrong in your conclusions regarding David and his wives and concubines, maybe you are mistaken in the other cultural norms! Read through the Old Testament. Yes, God did deal with them in their cultures. That is the way He deals with us today -- based on our knowledge and our hearts. That is His love. And that is why we are going to need that 1000 years in heaven to learn just what God wants us to be -- in HIS culture!

God bless,

Beryl

[Taylor]

I think it is clear that David had more than one wife or women that gave birth to his children. (Where those women all came from, I don't suppose we know but he did have multiple women.) Of course multiple wives or concubines is wrong in God's eyes. However that was the custome of the day and unfortunately, Israel had strayed so far from God's ways that they had a long ways to come back, even their King had things he needed to learn.

I think what made the situation with Bathsheba so much worse than all his other "wives" or "women" is that she was already married...belonged to someone else... but he had no regard for that and took her for himself and then had her husband murdered to cover it up. Yes, sin is sin but this sin involved much more than just adultery.

[Woody]

Quote:

The only other conclusion that could be derived from that is that women are never to say anything in church no matter the timing, the occasion, the reason or the culture.

Keep looking my friend and it will come to you as it did to me. Once you see it you will understand the beauty in it.

Norman

I am sure that one could see the beauty in it if you are a ...

MAN

[Woody]

Oh Well ... Like I have said ... Our church has decided the issue about women in leadership. We can fight our church or we can unite to finish the work set before us.

[Denise]

Quote:

OK, Norman, so David only had one wife with whom he slept. OK? Is that what you are saying?

Beryl, If you read carefully what Norman wrote, you would of understood what he meant:

Quote:

I don't know of any instance where Sauls wives became pregnant by David. He also passed on his morals to Solomon.

This was clear to me.......

[Tom Wetmore]

...God did not give him those women to sleep with...Kings were to have only one wife, period. Those women became servants...

Norman, I find this to be very revealing about your perspective... It certainly isn't the perspective of Scripture since there is no evidence for this conclusion there.

Tom

[John317]

1 Cor. 14: 34's reference to "the law" is really to the whole Old Testament and God's arrangement there of the relationship between man and woman, which is clearly set forth in Gen. 3: 16: "And he [the husband] shall rule over you." God's arrangement is not that woman is to rule over the man. The entire Bible shows this: the male is the head of the home in God's arrangement; and there were no female priests, no female disciples, no female apostles, and no female elders or pastors.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to apply this verse (Gen. 3: 16) to God's arrangement in the church as well as in the home.

Of course this "rule" of man over woman is a loving rule or leadership. It is elsewhere compared to the leadership that Christ has over the church. Therefore, just as it would be wrong for the church, or a bishop, to take over Christ's role in the church, it would be wrong for woman to take over man' role in the church. It's the same in society and in the home. Woman has an important role to perform in society, the home, and in the church, but the Bible plainly teaches that man is to lead or rule or govern. Nevertheless, there are many ministries in the church that women can take part in, such as women's ministries, children's ministries, music ministry, Bible work, evangelistic ministries, etc.

Regards,

"John 3:17"