Women in Ministry

[D. Allan]

Quote:

On the other hand, as far as women's role in the church is concerned, God gave clear directions, and those directions include the fact that the human leadership in the church is to consist of men, the husband is the head of the wife, and the divine leadership of the church is to be Christ.

I thought it was Paul you were using as your authority, not God.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

...On the other hand, as far as women's role in the church is concerned, God gave clear directions, and those directions include the fact that the human leadership in the church is to consist of men...

It is only clear if you quite intentionally ignore the real evidence of women in leadership roles from even the OT, spin the ambiguities only one way, ignore the full meaning of passages and key words or selectively use only the meaning most closely matching your own predisposition, and selectively focus on irrelevant details that are not determinative to the issue. In short, it is clear if you are predisposed and biased toward only one outcome. There is plenty of evidence for those who are willing to see it.

But remember ... he hasn't decided. He is OPEN to his predisposed position. But he is deciding to only go with what scripture says on the topic. (HIS predisposed interpretation of scripture)

[Tom Wetmore]

...Have you not observed that there is a consistent Biblical pattern of male leadership throughout the entire Bible?

That is a rather silly question in light of the fact that I have made repeated observations of evidence to the contrary which you obviously do not accept or have simply ignored.

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

But more to your point that this choosing of the apostles was somehow to be a standard for our selection of our modern day clergy, should we limit ourselves to exactly twelve ministers?

Why is this "more to the point"? Do you think this is a good argument from the viewpoint of WO? It only makes people wonder why something like this would be said if those in favor of WO have good Bible arguments to support them.

:R Pay attention. It is not an argument that those in favor of WO are making. It is taking the argument those of you in in the anti-women in ministry camp have just made and shooting holes in it. You ignore and/or misunderstand what I say, just as you have done with the Scriptural evidence contrary to your point of view.

Quote:

Can you point to a single instance of a NT congregation's unquestionably having a female pastor...

I have done so already, but you have chosen to stick to your opinion that it cannot be so. This leads you to disregard or disbelieve or simply disagree with the evidence I have presented. Phoebe was the female pastor of the church in Cenchrea and the female pastor/female leader sent to Rome by Paul to deliver his letter to the believers in Rome. Believe it or not!! How short your memory must be!! :R

Quote:

...Those are good points, all showing that Jesus' choosing 12 men as apostles (13, counting Paul) was deliberate and not due simply to Jewish tradition or culture. Jesus did not show any unwillingness to go against culture when he believed it was God's will for Him to do so.

Perhaps it is as I have stated previously, perhaps God was not so adamant on this point as you or the men of that day were. Just as you have already pointed out, God tolerated cultural irregularities contrary to his way, such as polygamy and slavery. You must also allow for the equally distinct possibility that God was willing to overlook the clear misogyny of the patriarchal culture of the day. After-all, He predicted it would turn out this way as a result of sin. And a fundamental mistake of the anti-women in ministry camp originates right there on the exit ramp from the Garden of Eden. Much of what is descriptive in Scripture is mistakenly taken as being prescriptive.

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

It is not an argument that those in favor of WO are making.

But Tom ... it is always more fun to argue with yourself than with those who disagree with you and have Biblical support for their belief.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Quite simply' date=' I accept the explanation given by Angel Rodriguez, I believe it was, that said the original Greek used here does not mean absence of sound or no speaking at all. The nuance of the original meaning was more on the order of do not be contentious or disruptive.

Tom

If you accept it because you understand it, would you explain briefly what he says about it?[/quote']

I just did explain it briefly. It means "Tell the women who are interrupting church with arguments and contentious questions to be quiet and save their questions to discuss with their husbands at home."

Quote:

Of course it is true that Paul doesn't mean that women are not to utter any words at all in the church...

Exactly! But that complete silence idea is exactly the interpretation that many in your anti-women in ministry camp give to this text as proof or evidence that women cannot be preachers or elders.

And that is precisely the argument that you just proceeded to make in post #152412 (just 5 posts after the one I am now responding to in this very topic!) to try to negate the fact that Phoebe was the minister or even an elder of the church at Cenchrea!! Try to stay consistent with yourself... :R

Quote:

Women clearly may pray and prophesy.

Where did we get the idea that prophetic ministry is not about teaching, preaching or leadership? I would submit to you that it is all of those things and more if you would understand what Scripture says about it.

Quote:

1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 34 prohibit woman from teaching, ruling and governing the local church.

Apparently, EGW missed this prohibition since she was involved in these things, frequently and specifically advocated that "consecrated women", "faithful women", and "devoted women" could in fact do these things.

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

John317 said "1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 34 prohibit woman from teaching, ruling and governing the local church.

Apparently Ellen White didn't know Pastors would have to do that.

Quote:

"It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women , to become pastors to the flock of God." 6T 322

[Tom Wetmore]

...Or one of the multitude of EGW quotes that I alluded to:

Quote:

It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life. Letter 33, 1879, p. 2

But I suspect that we will be told that EGW really meant something else entirely. When she used the word "pastor" in reference to women she really must have meant deaconesses... Or that when EGW used the phrase "management of the church" in regard to women she must have meant managing the mop and broom to merely clean the church... :R

Tom

[John317]

Quote:

On the other hand, as far as women's role in the church is concerned, God gave clear directions, and those directions include the fact that the human leadership in the church is to consist of men, the husband is the head of the wife, and the divine leadership of the church is to be Christ.

I thought it was Paul you were using as your authority, not God.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God," i.e., the whole Bible is God-breathed. The letters of Paul or Peter, for instance, are not simply Paul's or Peter's but the very Word of God. Please compare 2 Peter 3: 16.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 34 prohibit woman from teaching

So then, we must sack all of our female Sabbath School teachers?

You can't have it both ways.

Beryl

I don't believe the NT prohibits women from teaching Sabbath school. As I've said many times, the NT allows for many different kinds of women's ministries, and Sabbath school work is one of those.

I'll be posting all the rest of the NT verses dealing with church officers today and then will also write specifically and in more detail to your question about women's ministries.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[melvin mccarty]

But even you do not believe that all that is written is of universal application for all time and all places.

mel

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...On the other hand, as far as women's role in the church is concerned, God gave clear directions, and those directions include the fact that the human leadership in the church is to consist of men...

It is only clear if you quite intentionally ignore the real evidence of women in leadership roles from even the OT, spin the ambiguities only one way, ignore the full meaning of passages and key words or selectively use only the meaning most closely matching your own predisposition, and selectively focus on irrelevant details that are not determinative to the issue. In short, it is clear that you are predisposed and biased toward only one outcome. There is plenty of evidence for those who are willing to see it.

Tom, we're just beginning this discussion and analysis of the Bible texts. This is an important topic and deserves deliberate, prayerful, thoughtful study.

If you believe that I am not treating the evidence correctly, then bring up the verses and the evidence and show it for what it is. We can best discuss it that way.

Today I'll be posting all the rest of the NT verses dealing with church officers. If you go back a few pages on this thread, you'll see posts where I showed every text dealing with diakonos, diakonia, presbutera, presbutis, presbuterion, presbuteros, and diakoneo.

Today I will deal with all of the following: poimenes, leitourgos, huperetes, didomi, epichoregeo, hierourgeo, parecho, hupereteo, choregeo, episkopos, episkopee, proistamenoi, kyberneseis, hegoumenoi, proisteemi, kuberneesis, heegeomai. These words are variously translated as minister, officers, ministering, bishop, overseers, pastor, shepherd, govern, governor, administrator, director, rule, to lead, etc.

You say that I am dealing "selectively" with the evidence, yet the truth is I am dealing with every text and every word having to do with the subject. Of course I cannot deal with everything in a single post.

Please simply deal with all the evidence that you say is in the Bible favoring making women elders and overseers, etc. Let's try to keep the discussion on the texts themselves.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

But even you do not believe that all that is written is of universal application for all time and all places.

mel

It sounds as if you are implying that the NT instructions found in such verses as 1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 33-34 do not apply to the church of today. Is that your position on those verses? Or is it perhaps your position on other verses related to our subject? What verses do you have in mind, and would you please explain exactly what your position is?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[melvin mccarty]

Perhaps the onus is on you to show that Paul's views were intended to be of universal application and for all times and places. Otherwise it is futile to study the language implictions. You totally ignore the various quotes from EGW that have been presented here while at the same time professing to believe in her infalibility.

mel

[Beryl]

Quote:

I don't believe the NT prohibits women from teaching Sabbath school. As I've said many times, the NT allows for many different kinds of women's ministries, and Sabbath school work is one of those.

But John, you had just posted those 2 references to show that the Bible "prohibit woman from teaching..." , and when I pointed out that if you were going to apply that to our present church we would have to sack all women Sabbath School teachers -- and what do you do? Why, of course it is OK to have Sabbath School teachers, that's not church!!! Was Paul talking about church service only? Did they have "Sabbath School" as such? No??

Quote:

the NT allows for many different kinds of women's ministries, and Sabbath school work is one of those.

Prove it! This is just one more instance of a text being used to "prove a point" with the "point" being altered in order to make the text fit.

Beryl

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

Tom, we're just beginning this discussion and analysis of the Bible texts. This is an important topic and deserves deliberate, prayerful, thoughtful study.

Just Beginning? Have you looked at the length of this thread and all of the other threads having to do with this subject?

Dude, The wheel has already been invented!!

Reinventing wheels - wheels within wheels, round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows....

:R

This merry-go-round is making me dizzy...

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

...Tom, we're just beginning this discussion and analysis of the Bible texts...

That ship sailed a long time ago... Sorry you missed the boat...

Tom

[CelebratingLife]

wow this is a hot topic... it's funny when i felt God call me into ministry i could not not respond.

[CelebratingLife]

did i say something wrong?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Tom, we're just beginning this discussion and analysis of the Bible texts...

That ship sailed a long time ago... Sorry you missed the boat...

Tom

You may be finished examining all the evidence and all the texts dealing with this subject, but I haven't. Everyone must study this for himself and make up his own mind, not decide on the basis of what anyone else says.

What I'm seeing from this discussion is a lot of negative emotions from people when questions are asked and ideas suggested that challenge WO. Why are so many so uptight about it? I've found that usually when people are getting upset and getting personal about the subject rather than sticking to analysis and study of the evidence, it's because they're not sure the evidence supports their viewpoint.

Let's just look as dispassionately as possible at all the Bible evidence and talk about it civilly and politely.

I'm going to be presenting all the texts in the Bible on the subject, and eventually also look carefully at what the Old Testament contributes to the topic. If you have evidence from the Bible, please present it.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

wow this is a hot topic... it's funny when i felt God call me into ministry i could not not respond.

That may be the problem here-- it may be too "hot." Too much heat, not enough light. We need to think this through carefully, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and not be driven by emotion, social expectations or politics.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Perhaps the onus is on you to show that Paul's views were intended to be of universal application and for all times and places. Otherwise it is futile to study the language implictions. You totally ignore the various quotes from EGW that have been presented here while at the same time professing to believe in her infalibility.

mel

Yes, I plan to get around to those things as well. In the meantime, how do you understand 1 Tim. 2: 11-14 and 1 Cor. 14: 33-35?

[John317]

Quote:

I don't believe the NT prohibits women from teaching Sabbath school. As I've said many times, the NT allows for many different kinds of women's ministries, and Sabbath school work is one of those.

But John, you had just posted those 2 references to show that the Bible "prohibit woman from teaching..." , and when I pointed out that if you were going to apply that to our present church we would have to sack all women Sabbath School teachers -- and what do you do? Why, of course it is OK to have Sabbath School teachers, that's not church!!! Was Paul talking about church service only? Did they have "Sabbath School" as such? No??

1) Whether or not we would have to sack all women Sabbath School teachers does not help us to understand what the Bible teaches on this subject. Wouldn't you agree?

We need to be focussed on what it teaches, not on the consequences of doing what the Bible teaches. If we focus on the unwanted consequences of conforming to the Bible, we will likely not want to find out what the Bible says.

This is what often happens when the truth of the Sabbath and the state of the dead are presented: the changes required by these truths keep people from accepting them. We don't want to do that here.

It shouldn't matter what the consequences are. We should seek to understand what the Bible teaches, no matter what changes it may require of us.

2) But as for your question on Sabbath school workers, I don't believe that the Bible's teachings on this issue mean that women should not teach Sabbath school or perform other kinds of ministries.

3) Notice that the central concern in both 1 Cor. 14 33-36 and 1 Tim. 2: 11-14 is the question of who has the authority to teach and exercise authority over a man in the church when it is assembled.

According to the NT, who is given the work of teaching and exercising authority in the church? Clearly it is the elders or pastors or overseers and bishops. See 1 Tim. 3: 2-5; 5: 17; Titus 1: 9; 1 Peter 5: 2-5; Eph. 4: 11. Therefore, women may teach and take an active part in appropriate ministries when done under the supervision and leadership of the pastors and elders or overseers.

Paul is not saying that under no circumstances may a woman teach or take part in the worship service. Priscilla worked alongside of her husband in teaching the gospel to Apollos, and Paul refers to women praying and prophesying in church (1 Cor. 11: 5). It's very clear, then, that these things aren't contrary to what Paul is saying in 1 Tim. 2 and 1 Cor. 14.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen G. White Volume 3 The Lonely Years 1876-1891, By Arthur L. White (1984), page 377, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: (1887-1888) Back Home in America

The last meeting took action recommending those who should receive ministerial credentials. Ellen White's name was among those voted to receive papers of the ordained ministers, although her ordination was not by the laying on of hands by men. The conference session closed on November 27.

From what I have read on EGW on being ordained, I am not convinced or believe that she was ordained biblically by laying on of hands by men. She indicated in 1909 that she had never been ordained. Yes, she was indeed ordained by God to do the work for Him, and was given a special work to do. She never exercised the special functions of an ordained minister, such as performing marriages, baptizing, and organizing local churches.

This is a very important point and one that is usually lost in a discussion. Ellen White was not doing the work of pastors and elders. Ellen White was called by God to be a prophet. She was ordained by God, not by the church. Her authority, unlike that of elders and pastors, didn't derive from the church.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

What does the Bible say?

• Women are called to minister

• Women are not called to leadership

...Here is a list ... but by no means a complete one ....

WOMEN PASTORS "LICENSED TO PREACH" :

1878 ANNA FULTON MINNESOTA

ELLEN S. LANE MICHIGAN

JULIA OWEN KENTUCKY-TENNESSEE

1879 LIBBIE COLLINS MINNESOTA

HATTIE ENOCH KANSAS

LIBBIE FULTON MINNESOTA

LIZZIE POST MINNESOTA

All that a list of this nature shows is that the SDA church has given women licenses to preach or to minister in some way.

It doesn't tell us what these women were actually doing in their ministry on a day to day basis, nor does it address the essential question of whether giving them a license was in accordance with the teachings of the NT.

For instance, were these women involved primarily in evangelism, in training Bible workers, in giving individual Bible studies, in working with women, etc.? Or were they organizing local churches and supervising or ordaining church leaders?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Tom, we're just beginning this discussion and analysis of the Bible texts...

That ship sailed a long time ago... Sorry you missed the boat...

Tom

The problem is that the boat has a lot of cracks in it and may not reach its destination unless they're fixed. Unless we have a solid Biblical explanation for what the church does, we can't expect the majority of the world church to decide the way we think they should. So far we haven't come up with an explanation that is consistent with all that the Bible says about it. I think that's apparent on this thread, and it is also apparent by the attitude shown towards those that may yet have some questions about it. One of the most important aspects of this is what kind of spirit we show in the discussion. Is it Christ-like, or is it impatient and unloving?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"