confustion

[Guest truthseeker007]

Hello eveybody,

I am from Holland, i ve been searching for truth almost 10 years now. I have got some really big problems. Every big issue in Seventh day adventism makes sense: the antichrist, the prophecies of Daniel, the uniting of church and state in America etc etc.

However when it comes to Ellen White i have some real big problems. She said that some present at the conference would be subject to the seven plagues. She said that an angel told her this. The bible says that only the father knows when Jesus returns. Furthermore this could not be a conditional prophecy because no matter how hard the early adventists would work, it was impossible for the nations to unite in a New World Order at their lifetime.

However there are many personal testimonies on the internet of people who have become sd-adventists. For example Professor Walter Veith:

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-...h&plindex=1

Also doug Batchelor talks about divine intervention in his life.

My own thoughts on this matter: - maybe satan knows that in the endtimes there will be a revival for keeping the commandments of God, he hates it when people accept God s authority so he links his own authority with the Sabbathkeepers by using a false prophet in sheep clothes

- Maybe we should just ignore the mistakes of Ellen White and look at the bigger picture.

I wish God intervened in my life!

greetz,

from Holland

[Woody]

WELCOME truthseeker ... I am sure we will be blessed having you here.

You made the statement ...

Quote:

Maybe we should just ignore the mistakes of Ellen White and look at the bigger picture.

I think this is a good idea. We need to look to the Bible. Ellen White has many many errors. She was not infallible. She is the lessor light. There is a lot of good in Ellen though. I am sure you can find some good if you are interested in her study. Like you say .... just throw out the bad and let the good in. OUT with the BAD ... in with the GOOD.

But I would stick with the Bible. Ellen is so abused. We are not to take her every word ... instead we are to look to the Bible.

She knew there would be fanatics about her writings. So, she tried to prevent this abuse when she said ....

Quote:

" The words of the Bible and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit." PK 626

You are safe with the words directly from the Bible rather than an intermediary.

The Good News of the Gospel is simple and plain enough for all to understand ... even those with limited resources.

God Bless your walk with Him. He will intervene in your life and He IS.

[John317]

We need to look to the Bible. Ellen White has many many errors. She was not infallible. She is the lessor light. There is a lot of good in Ellen though. I am sure you can find some good if you are interested in her study. Like you say .... just throw out the bad and let the good in. OUT with the BAD ... in with the GOOD.

The problem with this is that the human heart is desperately wicked and therefore seeks for excuses to discard or ignore what it does not find convenient. It is the same reason many people don't study the Bible. They would rather be ignorant of it so they can on about their merry way feeling good about themselves.

The Bible also contains "errors," but they are not such as would cause anyone to be lost if they believed every word of the Bible. The same with Ellen White. Many will be lost because they rejected the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, but I can't imagine anyone's losing their salvation because they followed what God revealed through Ellen White.

What, if anything, do you find "bad" in the Conflict Series, for instance, or in something like Steps To Christ?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

What, if anything, do you find "bad" in the Conflict Series, for instance, or in something like Steps To Christ?

If there is a desire to study Ellen White ... then I would highly recommend what you have suggested. Just be prepared to compare it with scripture and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to discern ... throw out what does not mesh with scripture.

And I would rather not dwell on the things in her writings that are not scriptural. That is left between the individual and the Holy Spirit who guides. Like I say ... I just toss them . I could give you a long list ... but what would that serve. You would not agree. So, can we agree to disagree? Instead ... I will take the good that I find and be blessed with that. I don't have to believe that each and every word of hers was prophetic.

Quote:

"If the Testimonies speak not according to the word of God, reject them." 5T 691

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thank you for all of your comments. I am only interested in the truth, even when it is very unpleasant to me. It is easy to believe in a cheap gospel and lies like "the law has been nailed to the cross". So you don t have to worry about my wicked heart, because if I wanted to believe in lies, i would already believe the attacks on seventh day adventism i have investigated on the many anti-websites.

But my problem is this: Ellen White claimed that an Angel told her that some of the conference would be alive at the return of Jesus. To me, this diametrically opposes the bible when it says that the predictions of a true prophet always come to pass. Conditionality, like i mentioned before, could not be the case here. So i was thinking to myself, maybe did the angel show the conference as a model for all the generations of seventh day adventists. My loyalty to scripture and personal experience in deception forbids me to ignore the possibility that Ellen White was in fact a deception. Ellen White herself said that we should throw away her writings when it contradicts the bible, but of course this could also be a subtile way to hide the fact that she was in fact not a true prophet.

However Seventh day adventists are the only constisten protestant denomination left that uphold the bible, so it would be better for the devil to not have invented these Christians in the first place. I do believe that Ellen White was a true prophet but before i take her writings as an authoritive source, i have to fill in all the inconsistent gaps.

I really appreciate you guys helping me out here,

[John317]

Quote:

What, if anything, do you find "bad" in the Conflict Series, for instance, or in something like Steps To Christ?

If there is a desire to study Ellen White ... then I would highly recommend what you have suggested. Just be prepared to compare it with scripture and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to discern ... throw out what does not mesh with scripture.

OK, we're close to agreement here. I wouldn't say throw it out but rather put it on the back burner, like we would with the Bible when we see something that we either do not understand or that seems to be wrong. We can lay it aside and maybe come back to it later when we have read more or seen more evidence. Sometimes what seems to be wrong or contradictory at first is solved by something we see later on or even by the discovery of new information. In other words, don't be so hasty to conclude that either the Bible or Ellen White are wrong.

Just think how many SDAs would have lost out on blessings if they had waited for modern science to verify her writings before they acted on them. But because they went ahead and followed her advice on health even before science said she was right, many SDAs were able to be instrumental in verifying the truth of what God was trying to teach us.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

No Problem there.

[Woody]

Quote:

But my problem is this: Ellen White claimed that an Angel told her that some of the conference would be alive at the return of Jesus. To me, this diametrically opposes the bible when it says that the predictions of a true prophet always come to pass. Conditionality, like i mentioned before, could not be the case here. So i was thinking to myself, maybe did the angel show the conference as a model for all the generations of seventh day adventists. My loyalty to scripture and personal experience in deception forbids me to ignore the possibility that Ellen White was in fact a deception. Ellen White herself said that we should throw away her writings when it contradicts the bible, but of course this could also be a subtile way to hide the fact that she was in fact not a true prophet.

There are many things about Ellen White that will discourage you if you let it. Just take the good and don't be bothered with the bad. Just treat her like any other author you would read. This idea of ALL or NOTHING ... just does not wash with me. I know of NO author that I totally agree with every word on print. So, don't treat Ellen that way.

I would just dispense with this idea that she is a prophet. She may be ... but so what. It still means that you have to have the Holy Spirit impress you as to what she says is true ... of course after prayer and study.

Quote:

I do believe that Ellen White was a true prophet but before i take her writings as an authoritive source, i have to fill in all the inconsistent gaps.

There are lots of "authoritative sources" ... I would not sweat over that issue. And I am not sure what you mean by filling in the gaps. Again ... I would not worry about the gaps. She is not infallible. So, when you see error ... just shake your head and move on. It is far better to focus on the beauty of her writings when you study her ... than to focus on her error. The error is there for a reason I think. It just shows she is human and we should focus on the greater light ... the BIBLE of course.

[John317]

...But my problem is this: Ellen White claimed that an Angel told her that some of the conference would be alive at the return of Jesus. To me, this diametrically opposes the bible when it says that the predictions of a true prophet always come to pass. Conditionality, like i mentioned before, could not be the case here. So i was thinking to myself, maybe did the angel show the conference as a model for all the generations of seventh day adventists. My loyalty to scripture and personal experience in deception forbids me to ignore the possibility that Ellen White was in fact a deception. Ellen White herself said that we should throw away her writings when it contradicts the bible, but of course this could also be a subtile way to hide the fact that she was in fact not a true prophet.

May I suggest of few books to read that discuss the subject which you can access at this link: http://www.ellengwhite.org/

Messenger of the Lord by Herbert E. Douglass

A Prophet Among You by T. Housel Jamison. This book has a very good chapter on the Bible tests of a prophet.

Believe His Prophets by Rebok.

Arthur White's comprehensive biography of Ellen G. White.

The vision you refer to was in 1856. About 1900, Ellen White made the statement that Christ would have come about 6 years before if the church had fully accepted the message that God sent to the church in the messages of E.J. Waggoner and A.T. Jones. I believe that. Now if that is true, it means that Christ could have come about 1895 or so. If that had happened, of course some of the people at that conference in 1856 would have still been alive 40 years later to see Jesus come. Theoretically there is nothing keeping Christ from coming-- nor has there been anything keeping Him from coming-- since shortly after 1844, except the fact that the church has not made itself ready (Rev. 19: 7).

God is not waiting for particular political events to happen before He can come. He is only waiting for the church to be prepared, and when she is ready, He will allow those events prophesied in the Bible to happen. God wanted Christ to come for His church a long time ago, just He planned for the Israelites to go right into the Promised Land. It was only their stubbornness and refusal to believe and obey that kept them out and caused them to die in the wilderness. The same has been keeping the church from entering into the heavenly promised land.

Quote:

However Seventh day adventists are the only constisten protestant denomination left that uphold the bible, so it would be better for the devil to not have invented these Christians in the first place. I do believe that Ellen White was a true prophet but before i take her writings as an authoritive source, i have to fill in all the inconsistent gaps.

I really appreciate you guys helping me out here,

As Paul said, "Let everyone be persuaded in their own mind." Read widely and ask the Lord to lead. May God bless!

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

May I suggest of few books to read that discuss the subject which you can access at this link: http://www.ellengwhite.org/

Messenger of the Lord by Herbert E. Douglass

A Prophet Among You by t. Housel Jamison. This book has a very good chapter on the Bible tests of a prophet.

Believe His Prophets by Rebok.

Arthur White's comprehensive biography of Ellen G. White.

I personally would not waste my time away from the scriptures reading these good books. At this point ... I don't see the point of studying all this. It just takes us away from the Light of God. In the end ... it does not matter one bit if Ellen was in error or not. It does not change how we should read her. It does not change her purpose for us which is to point us to the Greater Light.

All these divisive issues only hurt the church. Focus on the REAL thing. WE are to "abide in Him". I don't see how reading these books qualifies as abiding.

But if you are fascinated by this ... then by all means. But for me ... I will dwell with my Saviour. I will abide IN Him.

[Woody]

If you do really want to look into this stuff. I would suggest a more recent book with up to date research into this topic ....

MORE THAN A PROPHET ... by Graeme Bradford

Order Information

More Than A Prophet may be ordered direct from the publisher,

Biblical Perspectives which is the work of Samuele Bacchiocchi who is one of the church's scholars. He only accepts the best research. I went to a Sabbath School class at Andrews with him. He is very knowledgable.

Another good one is ...

From Sinai to Golgotha"

By Alden Thompson OR ... Any of Alden's books on Ellen White

Alden again ... is one of the best scholars in the church and he has studied Ellen White a great deal. I was impressed with what a sincere and humble man he was when he stayed at our house while doing a seminar. A real man of God.

[LifeHiscost]

Thank you for all of your comments. I am only interested in the truth, even when it is very unpleasant to me.

Welcome truthseeker007.

Your enthusiasm in seeking and learning the Truth indicates God has already intervened in your life, for our fallen natures do not respond to God's call.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

B;lessings in your continuing journey of faith.

If you study thoroughly the lives of some of the Holy Bibles most illustrious individuals, you would find them revealing faults far greater in magnitude than Ellen White has ever been accused of. How then can we find confidence for trust that we should accept them as spokesmen for God?

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority." John 7:17 NKJV

In drawing my own conclusions about the veracity of her writings, if I had nothing else to base my conclusion on I would feel ashamed to bring her life in disrepute by my comments, at least until I had a string of hospitals and schools that circle the globe which could be ascribed to the wisdom of my counsels, as she has.

However I do believe one reason God uses people, despite our obvious flaws, is so that we will keep our eyes on Jesus and not let the messengers detract from His light and beauty, as a result of our own darkness.

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty..." 1 Corinthians 1:27 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

Theoretically there is nothing keeping Christ from coming-- nor has there been anything keeping Him from coming-- since shortly after 1844, except the fact that the church has not made itself ready (Rev. 19: 7).

It was only their stubbornness and refusal to believe and obey that kept them out and caused them to die in the wilderness. The same has been keeping the church from entering into the heavenly promised land.

[Woody]

Quote:

I wouldn't say throw it out but rather put it on the back burner

Quote:

"If the Testimonies speak not according to the word of God, reject them." 5T 691

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks again for the responses. We are actually talking about an angel that is setting a date for the return of Jesus. I believe that the book in Revelation ,which tastes sweet and became bitter, was the great disapointment. In the time of Ellen White people really believed Jesus was coming soon, but first the message has to be delivered to every tongue, nation and tribe. Now i know that God cannot lie and i don t think angels lie either and this is where it gets complicated. Maybe God permitted a demon to show Ellen White that she would be alive at the coming of Jesus. This would be a win-win situation because the prophecy of the book that tastes sweet but became bitter had to be fullfilled and satan could use this action to demonstrate to the world that Ellen White was a false prophetess.

I am sorry that i am a perfectionist. But i think this is of the utmost importance, because seventh day adventism is a movement that relies on evidence instead of irrational traditions and emotions. If i am able to have the answers on everything i want to know and i have no inconsistencies left, then the bringing of the 3 angels messages is a piece of cake. Then I don t have to look up to individuals who are highly honoured in this world and have most of the master degrees. I am glad that there are so many scientists who are seventh day adventists (Walter Veith etc) but there are far too less people who just go talk to the pentecostal leaders, catholics etc and show them evidence that they are in error. Of course I understand that we should use the atmosphere of peace and friendly relations in the Christian community rather as a means of convincing spiritual leaders of Babylon that they live in error than creating hostility and full opposition. I believe that seventh day adventism is at a very fragile point in history. Some of the people want to play church and become a friend of this world, others just have isolated themselves from criticism so that when the church comes under attack they will not hold on to their beliefs and others are thinking that they have to do nothing and they are waiting for the holy spirit or some divine intervention forgetting the fact that as Jesus suffered we should suffer too in this world because a student is subject to his master. Anyway, it is easy to point at others' mistakes but that s not what i am trying to do here. All i am saying is that, unless we collect evidence and present it in a logical manner to the world, we unitedly and individually carry our cross, seventh day adventism is nothing more than a 'strange' church. Therefore I think it is relevant to explain the big inconsistencies, otherwise the work cannot be done. Thank God, He is raising scientists opposing the evolution theory, because without it this church just does not have any chance to succeed.

Thanks again for helpin me out,

I have been discussing things with myself for so long now, that i need new and better insights from people who know more about this church than me

[Gerr]

Yes, there is confusion even in this forum. So the best thing to do is to search the Bible for the truth yourself. As for EGW, study her writings and compare it with Scripture and the Holy Spirit will let you know whether she is a false or true prophet.

Gerry

[Neil D]

I am sorry that i am a perfectionist. But i think this is of the utmost importance, because seventh day adventism is a movement that relies on evidence instead of irrational traditions and emotions. If i am able to have the answers on everything i want to know and i have no inconsistencies left, then the bringing of the 3 angels messages is a piece of cake.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"As for EGW, study her writings and compare it with Scripture and the Holy Spirit will let you know whether she is a false or true prophet."

Thanks for the advice, but how will the Holy Spirit let me know??? I cannot rely on feelings. Feelings brought me into the New Age movement. Please tell me how?

[pacunurse30]

I think the reason many have issues with the SOP is because of some statements or predictions that were made that turned out to be false (ie the shut door, or the world will not see the year 2000). Some of these things the SDA leaders refuse to address. They want to sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. It won't. I have no problem with most of what I've read from EGW (I haven't read a whole lot, but a few things). If I come across something that I believe to be erroneous or presumptuous, then I ignore it. I have the same attitude when I read something presumptuous in the bible. For example, Paul clearly thought that the Lord was coming in his day. Some people try to clear it up by saying that he was writing for the generation that would be alive when Christ comes. I don't believe that. If that were true he would have said so. He really did think that some of the followers of his time would be translated. Now does that mean I will discard anything Paul has to say? No. I believe that he was inspired, however he was not all knowing and infallible. There is no one that is all knowing and infallible except God. He has chosen what he would and wouldn't reveal to us in his word and through his prophets. Another thing to think about; does the bible indicate that God's prophets are infallible? Can a prophet say something that isn't true? Or mix truth with presumption and error? I gotta do some reading on this. :bible:

[Woody]

I don't know if Neil has changed or it I have. Even though Neil and I don't always agree ... I do like what he is saying. (Except for the last statement which I may be misunderstanding.)

I do tend to disagree with the approach or need of truthseeker to have all the ducks in a row before witnessing. The Gospel is simple. Just go out and preach it. The distinctive doctrines of the SDA church are fine and good but that is not what you need to witness about. Preach JESUS.

Now ... to the last suggestion of Neils ...

Quote:

I suggest a small group study...with a different church entirely and present your evidence of your faith....it will do much to help yourself...

I would hope you don't see the need to present "evidence". Just preach JESUS. The rest will come. But don't feed a baby meat. Give them milk first. Perhaps I have misunderstood Neil's comment and he meant to witness of Jesus rather than 'evidence' of church doctrine. I can hope.

And keep in mind that our mission is not to convert Christians .... it is to convert those who DON'T know God.

[Woody]

Quote:

Maybe God permitted a demon to show Ellen White that she would be alive at the coming of Jesus. This would be a win-win situation because the prophecy of the book that tastes sweet but became bitter had to be fullfilled and satan could use this action to demonstrate to the world that Ellen White was a false prophetess.

Ellen White testifies that God in vision told her the exact day and hour of the Lord's second coming. It was not from a "demon". That WOULD make Ellen White a false prophet.

[John317]

You're making good points. Of course Paul thought Christ was coming in his day. He had no idea the Second Coming would not occur for over 2000 years. He could not have understood or comprehended how that could be true. Imagine if an angel told you there would be six thousand more years before Christ returns. You would probably think it can't be an angel of God.

Ellen White said that the angels of God always presented the Second Coming of Christ as being very near. There are good explanations for this. For one thing, each of us may only live a short time, and for those that do die soon, it is as if Christ's return was very soon because the next thing we're aware of is either judgment or seeing Christ. For another, if we were told Christ would not return for hundreds or thousands of years, we would tend to put off getting ready for it.

It's important to remember, however, that the Bible does contain a number of indications that there would be a "delay" of Christ's return. (See, for instance, Matt. 24: 48; 2 Peter 3: 4.) But Paul and others of that time clearly did not understand the implications of these texts and others like them.

Paul was not wrong to write that he thought he would be among those alive at the time of Christ's return. He was writing from his personal viewpoint, and God did not prevent prophets from writing their own viewpoints. It's like the Psalmist writing about the joy of smashing the heads of babies against the wall. Those are human viewpoints, certainly not God's. God loves those babies, even if they are Babylonian babies. But at that time you couldn't expect an Israelite to see it that way.

All this just goes to show that when people "attack" Ellen White as being fallible, the same argument can be made about the prophets and apostles.

When it comes to the Shut Door, Ellen White never claimed that God showed her that the idea of the Shut Door as initially held by many Millerites was correct. On the contrary, it was dreams and visions that caused her to change her view of the Shut Door. She saw that she could not have been right about that. Please see Early Writings 42-45, 250, 251; and 1 Selected Messages 62-64, 74.

She wrote: "For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever close to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled me to see the true position.

"I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

".... I was shown in vision, and still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

"Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection..." (1 SM 63).

Ellen White never did say or write that the world would never see the year 2000.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Ellen White testifies that God in vision told her the exact day and hour of the Lord's second coming. It was not from a "demon". That WOULD make Ellen White a false prophet.

I agree with your last statement that if it was a demon, Ellen White would be a false prophet.

Do you have a reference for Ellen White's testimony that "God in vision told her the exact day and hour of the Lord's second coming"? Is it GC 640?

[annie]

Dear One in regards to your statement about the Holy Spirit and your "feelings" having led you astray-- The specific counsel given by Jesus in regards to the Holy Spirit and His leading-- study the Gospel of John for ex.John 15:13 ...when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. v14- He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and show it unto you. (My advice: Study the Words of Jesus- God in the flesh as He lived among us.) And pray, He will not forsake you, or leave you.

[Woody]

Quote:

And pray, He will not forsake you, or leave you.

I would go even further and just claim the promise for this. HE has promised to never leave nor forsake ... so you really don't need to pray for it. Just claim it.

Annie ... I am not saying that you meant he should pray for this. IT is not clear. But I did want to clarify that it IS promised.