History of Women Elders and Pastors

[Woody]

I don't expect you all to read all ... but if some of this sparks some thoughts ... lets talk about it. I think what I posted speaks to the History and cultural influences that have shaped how women have become recognized. Hope you appreciate some of it. Let's talk. How do you feel about the cultural impact on the use of women in ministry?

[Woody]

Quote:

My sincere apologies to Redwood for this latest post. I am posting it as the "finishing touches" on a verse I had promised to discuss.

No problem John317. I just really appreciate your willingness to move the discussion and finishing up is fine.

[Woody]

Here is an interesting history of a licensed woman minister ....

Lulu Russell Wightman

She has accomplished more the last two years than any minister in this state . . . l am . . . in favor of giving license to Sr. Lulu Wightman to preach, and if Bro. W is a man of ability and works with his wife and promises to make a successful laborer, I am in favor of giving him license also.—Pastor S. M. Cobb, writing to New York Conference president, 1897

Lulu Russell Wightman was the most successful minister in New York state for more than a decade. Her ministry began when she was licensed as a minister in 1897 and continued even after she left New York state to engage in religious liberty work in Kansas and Missouri in 1908. The results from Mrs. Wightman’s ministry rank her not only as the most outstanding evangelist in New York during her time, but among the most successful within the Adventist Church for any time period. As a licensed minister, Mrs. Wightman pioneered work that established companies or churches in a number of places in New York where Adventism had never gained a foothold before.

In 1901 the New York Conference president sent this note to John Wightman, Lulu’s husband: "Enclosed find a small token of appreciation from the Conference Committee for your work in assisting your wife. "2 Mrs. Wightman was the licensed minister, and the conference sent money to her husband in appreciation for his assistance to her. How is it that such a thing could occur? Mrs. Wightman was one of more than 20 Seventh-day Adventist women who were licensed as ministers in the 19th century. Was there something wrong with the 19th century Adventist Church? After all, there is no scriptural authority for licensing women as ministers, but that is precisely what happened in the church during Ellen White’s day

[David Koot]

John, I just have one minute here, but I would also like to comment that the Greek words which we translate as 'elder,' 'bishop,' 'overseer,' etc, are entirely different from diakonos. It would not seem to be accurate to attempt to read a different meaning into the Rom. 16:1 occurrence.

Dave

[John317]

more ...

Those are all great advances for women. But how do they contradict the idea of the NT that women are not to be in authority over men in the church?

For instance, the Bible, even in Paul's Epistles, does not contain anything that would discourage women from being missionaries or evangelists or taking an active role in many other ministries. Those who believe Paul's instructions prohibit women from being church pastors and Elders don't understand Paul's words to mean that women can't pray and prophesy, or do many of the other things spoken of in your post.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

John, I just have one minute here, but I would also like to comment that the Greek words which we translate as 'elder,' 'bishop,' 'overseer,' etc, are entirely different from diakonos. It would not seem to be accurate to attempt to read a different meaning into the Rom. 16:1 occurrence.

Dave

I agree. I think it most likely that Romans 16: 1 describes Phoebe as a deaconess. It's interesting that in what is perhaps the first mention of deacons in the Christian church, their work is contrasted with that of proclaiming the word of God (Acts 6: 2), so that they were not involved with the preaching aspect of the gospel. It mentions "serving tables," which meant caring for the poor, something that agrees with Paul's description of her in verse 2 as one who "has been a helper of many." (Cf. 1 Cor. 12: 28, one of the gifts being "helps." See NIV.)

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Here is an interesting history of a licensed woman minister ....

Lulu Russell Wightman

The results from Mrs. Wightman’s ministry rank her not only as the most outstanding evangelist in New York during her time, but among the most successful within the Adventist Church for any time period. As a licensed minister, Mrs. Wightman pioneered work that established companies or churches in a number of places in New York where Adventism had never gained a foothold before.

She was apparently an evangelist rather than a church pastor per se.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

And ...

As early as July 30, 1861, Uriah Smith, editor of the Review, reprinted an article from the Portadown News, with these words of approval: "We consider the following a triumphant vindication of the right of the sisters to take part in the public worship of God. The writer applies the prophecy of Joel - "Your daughters shall prophesy,' etc. - to female preaching but while it must embrace public speaking of some kind, this we think is but half of its meaning."15

In the August 18, 1868, Review, M. H. Howard spoke of "that conservatism which so readily takes fright at the prominence accorded to a woman."

The topic of women's public role in the Adventist Church resurfaced many times. In 1879, J. N. Andrews and James White wrote articles supporting it, as did G. C. Tenney in a Review editorial published first in 1892 and reprinted in 1894.16

The Spirit inspired Paul to write in 1 Cor. 11: 5 that women may prophesy and pray in church.

Neither Andrews, Smith nor James White called for women to be made ordained pastors or elders of churches (as far as I'm aware).

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

Those are all great advances for women. But how do they contradict the idea of the NT that women are not to be in authority over men in the church?

For instance, the Bible, even in Paul's Epistles, does not contain anything that would discourage women from being missionaries or evangelists or taking an active role in many other ministries. Those who believe Paul's instructions prohibit women from being church pastors and Elders don't understand Paul's words to mean that women can't pray and prophesy, or do many of the other things spoken of in your post.

I would point out that you idea of women in the NT is just that ... an idea. BUT ... I am not really discussing here what the Bible may or may not say ... I am discussing the history of Women Elders and Pastors. As we have discovered here ... The Church has clearly voted to approve women as ordained Elders world-wide. They have decided the issue of women having "authority over men". That was voted on and approved overwhelmingly.

The only thing that has not been approved yet due to cultural concerns ... is the man made invention and practice of what we call .... Ordination.

[Woody]

Quote:

Neither Andrews, Smith nor James White called for women to be made ordained pastors or elders of churches (as far as I'm aware).

Again ... I must point out that the Seventh day Adventist Church HAS. This point has been decided in favor of women being ordained.

[David Koot]

Just tagging onto Redwood's post, I would like to comment on a most extraordinary proposition which I read earlier on this thread--that is, some significance in terms of women's ordination which had been somehow contrived out of the Gen. account of God's clothing Adam and Eve with skins. I can hardly believe what I read. That certainly is not exegesis. Here is NIDOTTE's entry for this occurrence of the word:

" 4. Animal skin or hide is often the sense of the word. Animal skin was used for garments in Gen 3:21, where God, in a meaningful gesture of kindness, clothes the human couple with skin graments."

Hide garments certainly are both more durable and provide better protection and warmth than fig leaves, which they had sewn together to make garments. They also required the death of the animal for the skin. I have seen the idea expressed by some writers that the fig leaf garments represented man's self-righteousness, whereas the skin garments represented Christ's sacrifice and His righteousness--but that was not on the level of exegesis.

To attempt to find some significance in terms of ordination, in the Gen. account has got to take the cake as the biggest exercise in acrobatics since the invention of the circus.

Dave

[Woody]

Have you been to a circus lately Dave?

[David Koot]

Not in a long, long time. But I do understand that they often feature some very impressive acrobatic performances.

[Woody]

This is not directed at anyone ... but I would like to ask that the Greek and animal skins discussion be moved. I am talking here .... about the recent History of Women Elders and Pastors in the church. I've posted much history and I would like to discuss this.

I would like to try to ask respectfully to have the Greek and animal skins discussion moved if possible.

Thank you all ....

[there buster]

Quote:

, their work is contrasted with that of proclaiming the word of God (Acts 6: 2), so that they were not involved with the preaching aspect of the gospel. It mentions "serving tables,

As usual our "Greek authorities" know the lexical citation for every individual word, but miss the actual importance of any larger unit of meaning.

The Apostles were the twelve, of which having been with Christ was a requirement. But they were all Jews from Palestine.

The issue is largely one of culture-- NOT RESPONSIBILITY.

Quote:

1Now at this time while the (A)disciples were (B)increasing in number, a complaint arose on the part of the [a]©Hellenistic Jews against the native (D)Hebrews, because their (E)widows were being overlooked in (F)the daily serving of food.

The Greek-speaking Jews felt slighted, because all the leaders were from Palestine. So they appoint diakonos to assist the Apostles, especially with the Greek-speaking Jews. Not surprisingly, all the deacons have Greek names.

Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas.

Now, our "Greek experts" would have us believe that the work of these seven was primarily 'waiting on tables.'

But the actual narrative shows something else. Immediately, it is the deacons who are the focus of the book of Acts, and who are doing the preaching.

Stephen is performing 'wonders and signs among the people' 6:8, no doubt while doing the dishes. Later he is stoned, and gives his great sermon, upon which all of Paul's later ministry is based. ch6:9-7:60

Not bad for a mere 'helper.'

Because of Stephen's martyrdom, we are introduced to Saul. This is immediately followed by the story of Phillip, another mere 'helper,' who also performs 'signs and wonders' in Samaria.

The next episode in the narrative is Phillip with the Ethiopian eunuch.

The Book of Acts would be about 2/3 smaller if the mere 'helpers' the deacons were not ordained to do 'signs and wonders.'

All in the name of keeping Phoebe in her place.

[David Koot]

As usual our "Greek authorities" know the lexical citation for every individual word, but miss the actual importance of any larger unit of meaning.

Ahh, your usual approach of belittling others while exalting your own supposed abilities. But as to the merits of what you have said . . . first of all, a 'larger unit of meaning' cannot violate the actual meaning of the words themselves. The words are the building blocks. As far as 'larger units of meaning,' such proposed 'units,' quite often, are easily amenable to someone with an agenda coming to a passage in an attempt to find or create such 'units' to support his or her agenda. IOW it is subject to abuse.

Dave

[Woody]

OK you guys. Enough fighting here. I would like to get my thread back. Can you start your own "fighting" thread please. How can I ask nicely?

Is there a moderator here or not? Oh, I forgot ... he is busy participating.

I want my thread back.

[David Koot]

Sorry, Redwood. Not meaning to interfere with your very interesting contributions. It just happened to come up, and seems to be an topic of interest in terms of what the Bible teaches about the question.

Dave

[Woody]

No problem Dave. I would just like to ask that it is moved .

[there buster]

Quote:

your usual approach of belittling others while exalting your own supposed abilities.

I'm afraid you're confused. You're the one who ignored the substance and went for the attack. You're the one anointing experts. I haven't said anything about my abilities. My comments were about the text.

To return to the text itself, here is what one of the two people you termed 'experts,' had to say about deacons.

Quote:

It's interesting that in what is perhaps the first mention of deacons in the Christian church, their work is contrasted with that of proclaiming the word of God (Acts 6: 2), so that they were not involved with the preaching aspect of the gospel. It mentions "serving tables," which meant caring for the poor, something that agrees with Paul's description of her in verse 2 as one who "has been a helper of many.

After the 'first mention,' the text (for those who read it) actually paints quite a different picture than 'serving tables.'

As I pointed out:

Quote:

The Greek-speaking Jews felt slighted, because all the leaders were from Palestine. So they appoint diakonos to assist the Apostles, especially with the Greek-speaking Jews. Not surprisingly, all the deacons have Greek names.

Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas.

Now, our "Greek experts" would have us believe that the work of these seven was primarily 'waiting on tables.' [as reflected in the quote above]

But the actual narrative shows something else. Immediately, it is the deacons who are the focus of the book of Acts, and who are doing the preaching.

Stephen is performing 'wonders and signs among the people' 6:8, no doubt while doing the dishes. Later he is stoned, and gives his great sermon, upon which all of Paul's later ministry is based. ch6:9-7:60

Not bad for a mere 'helper.'

Because of Stephen's martyrdom, we are introduced to Saul. This is immediately followed by the story of Phillip, another mere 'helper,' who also performs 'signs and wonders' in Samaria.

The next episode in the narrative is Phillip with the Ethiopian eunuch.

The Book of Acts would be about 2/3 smaller if the mere 'helpers' the deacons were not ordained to do 'signs and wonders.'

All in the name of keeping Phoebe in her place.

The narrative makes it abundantly clear that the deacons did a great deal more than 'wait on tables' or 'help the poor.'

Kindly address the actual text please. And not with a blizzard of obfuscatory citations, but with actual evidence from the narrative.

Blessings.

[David Koot]

You're the one who ignored the substance

[there buster]

Amazing. You managed an entire post without referencing the text even once,

Quote:

Well, you really were calling attention to your claimed expertise, as in:

Quote:

but miss the actual importance of any larger unit of meaning.

Uh huh. So by simply going through the narrative and demonstrating its significane, I'm "calling attention to [my] claimed expertise."

Except I made no such claim. If you're saying that my exposition demonstrated expertise, I thank you. But I made no claim.

And, since you didn't reproduce or answer the analysis of the text, I return to it here:

Quote:

The Greek-speaking Jews felt slighted, because all the leaders were from Palestine. So they appoint diakonos to assist the Apostles, especially with the Greek-speaking Jews. Not surprisingly, all the deacons have Greek names.

Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas.

Now, our "Greek experts" would have us believe that the work of these seven was primarily 'waiting on tables.'

But the actual narrative shows something else. Immediately, it is the deacons who are the focus of the book of Acts, and who are doing the preaching.

Stephen is performing 'wonders and signs among the people' 6:8, no doubt while doing the dishes. Later he is stoned, and gives his great sermon, upon which all of Paul's later ministry is based. ch6:9-7:60

Not bad for a mere 'helper.'

Because of Stephen's martyrdom, we are introduced to Saul. This is immediately followed by the story of Phillip, another mere 'helper,' who also performs 'signs and wonders' in Samaria.

The next episode in the narrative is Phillip with the Ethiopian eunuch.

The Book of Acts would be about 2/3 smaller if the mere 'helpers' the deacons were not ordained to do 'signs and wonders.'

Blessings.

[David Koot]

Get back to the subject

Then stick to the issues yourself, and you will find that others will see no need to respond in the way you are complaining of. Try to set a good example.

[there buster]

Quote:

Then stick to the issues yourself,

Wow. That makes 6 posts in a row aimed at instructing other people, instead of addressing the import of the narrative. Which, I remind you, is as follows

Quote:

The Greek-speaking Jews felt slighted, because all the leaders were from Palestine. So they appoint diakonos to assist the Apostles, especially with the Greek-speaking Jews. Not surprisingly, all the deacons have Greek names.

Stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas.

Now, our "Greek experts" would have us believe that the work of these seven was primarily 'waiting on tables.'

But the actual narrative shows something else. Immediately, it is the deacons who are the focus of the book of Acts, and who are doing the preaching.

Stephen is performing 'wonders and signs among the people' 6:8, no doubt while doing the dishes. Later he is stoned, and gives his great sermon, upon which all of Paul's later ministry is based. ch6:9-7:60

Not bad for a mere 'helper.'

Because of Stephen's martyrdom, we are introduced to Saul. This is immediately followed by the story of Phillip, another mere 'helper,' who also performs 'signs and wonders' in Samaria.

The next episode in the narrative is Phillip with the Ethiopian eunuch.

The Book of Acts would be about 2/3 smaller if the mere 'helpers' the deacons were not ordained to do 'signs and wonders.'

Blessings.

[Stan]

What would be nice... if everyone here... posted something in inspiration thoughts shared....

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=115