History of Women Elders and Pastors

[Tom Wetmore]

In the avalaunche of words and the battle to bring forth The champion of authority and ultimate expertise there seems to be many things lost sight of. But one above all the rest seems lost here. What keeps ringing in my ears with a clarion ring is principle stated by a dear little old lady a long time ago -

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...to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thought.

Tom

[David Koot]

What keeps ringing in my ears with a clarion ring is principle stated by a dear little old lady a long time ago -

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...to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thought.

Tom

However, that does not qualify a person to be an exegete. In that narrow field, reliance on competent authorities is essential. Or, if a student proposes a different exegesis, then s/he will need to provide extremely solid textual documentation.

Dave

[Denise]

Wow!! I really was not online yesterday, been busy, but this discussion has really grown, and this is really interested! Enjoy reading this and learning from it! Hi John317! (We just met John317 last week) And Hi David Koot, and the rest of ya! And Happy New Year!!! Of course, I am against women as being ordained as Elders and Pastors and agree with John317 and others...but this has been a great reading this discussion! Ok, I'm gone....

[Taylor]

I had no idea that John had any formal training in Greek. That is cool. I also think that each one of us must study it out for ourselves to the very best of our ability even if we aren't professionals or have formal training.

[Stan]

Couple of comments..

1) Did the early church have the same election process as we do? Or were the Elders considered Elders because they were elders? In some cultures the Elders have a lot of respect, just because they are Elders. ( We should have that as well)

2) Why the nasty personal comments about those who disagree or have another view?

[Taylor]

Interesting comment about Elders. Now going off topic a bit..having nothing to do with women in ministry...I was so impressed with I lived for a time in a certain Asian culture, the respect that they gave their elderly. It was heart warming and something I wish I saw more of here in the USA.

It just seems that ordination or women as pastors is a very hot topic. That is all I can figure. I understand completely why the church has supported women pastors but not ordination due to the divisive issue it has become. Both sides are equally sure they are right and have studied it thoroughly. I think there could be elements in both sides that aren't correct (yes including my position) I am just thankful that God is the judge.

I really regret if I have offended anyone as that has never been my intent. I just want to say I have nothing against anyone whether they agree with me or not. I have met John 3:17 and genuinly liked him and have wished I could meet others like Norman and Denise, Dave, Redwood and everyone else.

I just hope that at the end of this everyone can truely be friends and not think badly of others even if we strongly disagree on this or any other topic. Just like there will be people who aren't SDA in heaven but who followed the Lord to the best of their ability, I am sure there will be people on both sides of this issue in heaven who have followed the Lord to the best of their ability and understanding.

I didn't start this thread but thanks everyone for their contribution, expertise, and personal conclusions from their study. I think both positions have been clearly set out.

[there buster]

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Currently, it is referred to as BAGD. You might want to update.

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I would simply suggest that you be careful to avoid giving the appearance of being an authority on NT Greek

[David Koot]

(duplicate post)

[David Koot]

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I would simply suggest that you be careful to avoid giving the appearance of being an authority on NT Greek

"When bullies roam free, it's not safe for anyone else."

[Woody]

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this has been a great reading this discussion! Ok, I'm gone...

I am not sure what is so great about trying to determine who is the greatest among us in regards to Greek interpretation. I think there are plenty of good scholars in our church. Folks ... They all disagree. So, WHO CARES. I am not going to base my theology on someone who is declared "great" here on CA.

It still boils down to individual study and conviction. I really don't care who is the greatest among us here on CA.

If this issue was of such importance ... it would not appear that God made it clear enough. Maybe we should blame Him?

[David Koot]

Redwood, personally I just don't feel a particular burden either way. Got a lot on my plate already. I would only say that if someone is going to take a position and rely on NT Greek to do so, then s/he should expect peer review. (And I realize that you personally have not gotten into that particular issue.) Several people here have a keen interest in the subject, and at the same time believe in meticulous scholarship. But I would think that a posiiton could be established without relying on an erroneous understanding of a Greek word. Anyway, I will post a couple of lexical cites in the next entry.

Your friend, Dave

[Woody]

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2) Why the nasty personal comments about those who disagree or have another view?

Thank you Stan. I appreciate you pointing this out. I don't think we should place any merit on the opinions of those who think their abilities and their views are the greatest.

If there is not room for people to differ without being told that their view is not Biblical ... and that people must believe as they ... then I really don't care to listen to their message.

[David Koot]

Now, first of all, getting down to the Greek grammar. The 1 Tim. 5:2 occurrence is fem. plu. accus. comparative. Immediately, we recognize, from this alone, that THIS OCCURRENCE has to do with AGE. There is one other occurrence of the form, in Eze. 16:61 (Septuagint) Here, the reference also is to age. Let's go to Kittel, v. 6, p. 667:

"In 1 Tim. 5:1 (cf. also v. 2) presbuteros is clearly a designation of age (opp. newros" [emphasis added] And THAT is the key. Very, very easily solved.

Dave

[John317]

I will suggest that within the I Tim. text there is evidence as to its meaning. I will suggest that good scholarship will discover that evidence. I encourage people to look closely enough at the Biblical texts to determine what the Bible teachs, and not to simply rely upon some superficial comment that I might make.

I did discuss this contextual evidence before, but only as a one-liner so probably few paid attention to it. But the reason that all translators of 1 Tim. 5: 2 translate presbutera as "older women" (and why all Greek Lexicon are in agreement with this) is the fact that here Paul instructs Timothy to make his "appeal to the presbutera as mothers and to the younger women as sisters, in complete chastity." It compares the older and younger women, using the same language as found in the LXX at Genesis 19: 31. Paul is comparing and contrasting older men and women in contrast to younger men and women. This is the language of family, not that of a pastor to a church officer.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

... Did the early church have the same election process as we do? Or were the Elders considered Elders because they were elders? In some cultures the Elders have a lot of respect, just because they are Elders. ( We should have that as well)

According to Acts 14: 23, Paul and Barnabas appointed Elders in every church. Later Paul told Titus to appoint Elders in every city. Titus 1: 6- 9 gves their qualifications, among which was that they had to be "blameless" (men of known integrity) and the "husband of one wife." Bishops and Elders did not occupy the very same office but they were very similar. Elders also held offices in churches not founded by Paul. See James 5: 14 and 1 Peter 5: 1.

They had spiritual care of the congregation, exercising rule, giving instruction, and ordaining to office. There were several bishops or Elders in a local church, and in NT times they were not elected by the congregation but were appointed by committees of Elders or by an Apostle.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

In the avalaunche of words and the battle to bring forth The champion of authority and ultimate expertise there seems to be many things lost sight of. But one above all the rest seems lost here. What keeps ringing in my ears with a clarion ring is principle stated by a dear little old lady a long time ago -

Quote:

...to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thought.

Tom

What is your view of Titus 2: 3 and 1 Tim. 5: 2 at this point, given the fact that not a single translation has anything but "older women" in those verses; given that all the Greek Lexicons agree with these translations; and given the fact that the context also gives very strong evidence that it has reference to elderly women, rather than to female church officers?

As pointed out earlier, the reason all translators of 1 Tim. 5: 2 translate presbutera as "older women" (and why all Greek Lexicon are in agreement with this) is the fact that here Paul instructs Timothy to make his "appeal to the presbutera as mothers and to the younger women as sisters, in complete chastity." It compares the older and younger women, using the same language as found in the LXX at Genesis 19: 31. Paul is comparing and contrasting older men and women in contrast to younger men and women. This is the language of family, not that of a pastor to a church officer.

Next we can look carefully at Romans 16: 1 and 3, which you've already written a bit about, and then at all of the qualifications that Paul sets forth for Elders, Bishops, and Deacons. Finally I would like to list all of the NT verses that mention Elders, Deacons, Ministers, and Bishops, etc., and see if any of them give evidence of referring to women as teachers, pastors, Elders, or officers of the church.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Taylor]

I think Tom's main point was simply saying that each of us must study it for himself. Of course I am not Tom so maybe I shouldn't speculate on what he meant but that is what I read.

Happy New Year John. I hope you have a wonderful year filled with God's blessings!

[Woody]

Honestly ... I am not going to get tied up into the "interpretations" of the Greek. For equal time ... we could call in more Greek experts. But I am not going to put my faith in the "experts" we have here. I will not base my faith on the interpretation of one text. I base my faith on the knowledge of Jesus and the Bible as whole.

The bottom line. I do not see my God as a sexist like the beliefs that I hear articulated here. I don't think he meant for only Men to accomplish the Gospel Commission. But then I differ on the church also ... they believe that only the pastors can fully accomplish the Great Commission. I don't see that in scripture either.

I guess we could go back to the idea that ONLY the scholars can read or interpret scripture. We could ban Bibles for the unlearned.

[John317]

I had no idea that John had any formal training in Greek. That is cool. I also think that each one of us must study it out for ourselves to the very best of our ability even if we aren't professionals or have formal training.

Yes, I graduated from Loma Linda University as a theology major and have enjoyed continuing my studies of the Greek NT printed texts.

It can be dangerous for people who have no training in Greek, and have not studied it, to ignore 50 consistent translations of a particular verse. "Jehovah's Witnesses" do this often and consequently reject much Bible truth for the stuff they get out of their organization in Brooklyn, simply because the organization says what they want to hear.

That would be a little like rejecting 50 translations of a Chinese text because I look at a Chinese-English dictionary and conclude on that basis that all the professional translators are in error.

By the way, as I've said before, I haven't made up my mind completely about Women's Ordination. I support women's involvement in ministry and I sometimes attend a church nearby (Loma Linda Hill Church) where a woman is the senior pastor. I don't have anything personal against women or against their ministry. There are many ministries a woman may be involved in, not just pastoral ministry. But I am not persuaded by social or political considerations of the subject, because it seems to me that the only really central issue is whether the Bible teaches that God wants women to be pastors. I'm fine with it if the Bible teaches it. I'm also fine with it if the Bible's view is indeterminate. I'm simply concerned with the NT teaching on it.

Redwood has made statements to the effect that when I say this, I am somehow attacking people or making it appear that I am doing something others are not. I do think that for some people the main priority is a social/political/cultural concern, and that becomes obvious by a person's emphasis, when they do not show the Bible evidence but rather the evidence of history and church traditions. While I'm not blind or insensitive to those things, my concern is whether there were women pastors and Elders in the NT church and whether the Bible clearly supports women in those roles today.

I do not make personal attacks on anyone because they disagree with me or even because they make personal attacks on me. I enjoy talking with people who disagree with me, but it's most enjoyable when it's done when both sides respect each other, make no personal accusations and simply discuss the pros and cons of the evidence.

I very much enjoyed meeting you and Stan and the others in Riverside about a year ago. We had a very good time. I would like to do it again sometime. I'm the same person you met and "liked" at that time. I haven't changed a bit. The problem is that it's impossible to transfer everything about a person's thinking and personality across the electrical cables and onto someone's flat screen.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[olger]

In the avalaunche of words and the battle to bring forth The champion of authority and ultimate expertise there seems to be many things lost sight of. But one above all the rest seems lost here. What keeps ringing in my ears with a clarion ring is principle stated by a dear little old lady a long time ago -

Quote:

...to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thought.

Tom

A very good quote, Thomas.

As to Phebe, much hay is made over the singular diakonos reference in Romans 16:1. What people fail to remember is that the great majority of believers met in homes (house churches) and it is likely that Phebe had a group meeting in her home. Nothing unusual or meritorious about that likelihood. Lydia demonstrated similar hospitality, and thank God for sisters who open their homes to others. My wife is of this ilk.

brother Gerry

oG

[John317]

Honestly ... I am not going to get tied up into the "interpretations" of the Greek.

That's just it. You don't have to know the Greek. All you have to do is have several very good translations. That's what they are for. As I said before, if a person has access to about 4 really good translations-- say, the King James Version, or NKJV, the New American Standard, Robert Young's Literal, and the NIV-- you will see the correct translation 99.9% of the time.

In the case of 1 Tim. 5: 2, the evidence is overwhelming: all translations completely agree. No Greek necessary. In fact, discussing the Greek with people who either don't know it or haven't studied it, can be counterproductive and downright confusing rather than illuminating. Just go with the good ol' English. It's plenty.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

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But I am not persuaded by social or political considerations of the subject,

I would say that personally I am not persuaded by any of these things plus I am not persuaded by religiosity in those learned scholarly type that say unless you believe as they do that you are not of God.

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Redwood has made statements to the effect that when I say this, I am somehow attacking people or making it appear that I am doing something others are not.

Rather than make sweeping personal accusations and doing mind reading ... please quote where you feel this was done. To do otherwise is to impune my reputation.

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I do not make personal attacks on anyone because they disagree with me or even because they make personal attacks on me.

Oh PLEASE. This is just laughable. I will personally testify to the wild personal attacks and belittling of me. ALL of course in the name of GOD. Do I need to bring up the name of the Devil?

You can have your opinions of how terrible some of us are ... but do please ... keep them to yourself.

[Woody]

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In fact, discussing the Greek with people who either don't know it or haven't studied it, can be counterproductive and downright confusing rather than illuminating.

Perhaps this would be good advice to follow. Like I say ... there are plenty of scholars who disagree and WHO cares. I will not base my faith on a few isolated misunderstood texts that are taken out of context. I base my faith on Jesus and the Bible as a whole.

[olger]

There is a remarkable consistency among the various translations of 1 Tim. 5:2, John.

It seems to me that the siezure of this verse as a proof-text of women elders & bishops assumes much too much. It is on par with Jacques Douhkan's claim that God's clothing Adam & Eve with animal skins to cover their nakedness made Eve a priest !! huh?

It's been a good year (so far).

oG

[Taylor]

[quote

I very much enjoyed meeting you and Stan and the others in Riverside about a year ago. We had a very good time. I would like to do it again sometime. I'm the same person you met and "liked" at that time. I haven't changed a bit. The problem is that it's impossible to transfer everything about a person's thinking and personality across the electrical cables and onto someone's flat screen.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"