History of Women Elders and Pastors

[John317]

She got paid but she would have been glad to work for no money at all. She wasn't motivated by money at all. She often said she would rather study the Bible with people than eat.

Personally I believe women should be paid the same as men for the same job. I'm not sure, though, if Bible workers should be paid the same as a pastor.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Actually I am just considering the Greek as it reads. A number of translations use "elder women". How finely must one split this hair, since it could also be translated "women elders". But when it is referring to the men in the preceding verse, the very same word in its masculine form (which can also be used inclusive of male and female) is simply translated "elder" in most of the same translations. But why are you now back-peddling off this very idea that you postulated for the verses in Titus 2!?!? You said "if Paul meant a female "elder" he would have simply used the word presbuteres,... The masculine form of the noun, referring to male officers in the church, is presbuteros, which occurs many times." Strange isn't it that in 1 Timothy 5:2 it is downgraded to mean old women, just like in the single reference to Phoebe, the female diakonos "minister" gets downgraded to "servant"!

Tom

Is Titus 2: 3 and 1 Tim. 5: 2 the best evidence you have that there were women elders and pastors in the NT church? How crucial are these two verses for your case that the Bible supports the ordination of women to be pastors?

Do you have a single translation that reads anything in either of those verses except "older women, " or something similar?

I have checked 50+ translations and every single one reads "older women" or "aged women." In addition, the very best Greek-English lexicons read the same way as in those translations.

We will look at every occurrence of the words in the NT as they occur in the original and see if any of them refer to women pastors or elders.

We will find that in all but 2 occurrences it refers to men. The word refers to women only in Titus 2: 3 and 1 Tim. 5: 2. We will also find that in both of them, all translations have "older women" and that the context shows that this is the correct translation.

Finally, if you would like to, we will look at how these words are used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (LXX) and then at some Bible commentaries with regard to Titus 2: 3 and 1 Tim. 5: 2 or any other passage you are interested in examining.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[there buster]

You were the one who claimed that Paul could simply have used the word presbeutera to indicate a woman elder. When he uses that word, you pooh-pooh it.

You simply cannot have it both ways.

And, it's not such a weak argument as you make out.

It only takes a single counter example to disprove a negative.

If your position is that women were never elders in the NT era, a single example of a woman elder disproves that position.

Besides, you've already conceded that the SDA church is not bound by the organization of the NT church.

[John317]

You were the one who claimed that Paul could simply have used the word presbeutera to indicate a woman elder. When he uses that word, you pooh-pooh it.

You simply cannot have it both ways.

And, it's not such a weak argument as you make out.

It only takes a single counter example to disprove a negative.

If your position is that women were never elders in the NT era, a single example of a woman elder disproves that position.

Besides, you've already conceded that the SDA church is not bound by the organization of the NT church.

I would really appreciate it if you would have a little patience and courtesy. I just came home from work and have a family. I will get to all those points and more in due time. We have much to cover.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Actually I am just considering the Greek as it reads. A number of translations use "elder women". How finely must one split this hair, since it could also be translated "women elders". But when it is referring to the men in the preceding verse, the very same word in its masculine form (which can also be used inclusive of male and female) is simply translated "elder" in most of the same translations.

Have you looked up the word as it occurs in 1 Tim 5: 1 and 2 in any of the Greek-English Lexicons?

What translations simply translate 1 Tim. 5: 1 as "elder"?

Have you noticed that every single translation has "elder women, " or something similar in 1 Tim. 5: 2 and Titus 2: 3? I have over 50 translations of the NT and every single one translates it the same. Does it occur to you that there must be a good reason for this?

I'd like to make a suggestion. I have found that almost always if 3 or 4 really good translations-- such as NRSV, NASB, Rotherham's Emphasized, Robert Young's Literal, New American Bible, NKJV, NIV, etc.-- have the same translation in a verse or word, and if the Greek-English Lexicons agree with the translations, then you can bet your house that that's the correct reading.

Why don't you take your Greek Bible to a professor of Koine Greek and ask him if he thinks 1 Tim. 5: 2 and Titus 2: 3 refer to female elders in the NT church?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Tom Wetmore]

...Have you looked up the word as it occurs in 1 Tim 5: 1 and 2 in any of the Greek-English Lexicons?

Yes.

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What translations simply translate 1 Tim. 5: 1 as "elder"?

KJV, ASV, Darby, Webster, to name a few.

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Have you noticed that every single translation has "elder women, " or something similar in 1 Tim. 5: 2 and Titus 2: 3?

Pay attention John. You yourself noted that the word in Titus is a different Greek word than used in Timothy, as I have also repeatedly pointed out. Yes, they are related words but with distinctly different meanings. The word in Titus carries the meaning of simply that of age - elderly. The word in Timothy carries with it the additional concept of seniority or maturity that comes from the longer experience that an older person would most likely have with the consequential status that would be expected to be given one with seniority. It brings with it a required expectation of respect from those less experienced or younger, more than simply the nice virtue being kind to old people. With age and experience comes greater maturity and wisdom to which deference is expected from those less experienced, immature or younger. That is why the presbuterion, or body of elders were looked to as the wise older leaders of the community. Their mature wisdom of experience carried substantial weight of authority for the community.

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I have over 50 translations of the NT and every single one translates it the same.

Similar, but not the same...

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Does it occur to you that there must be a good reason for this?

Yes, quite simply, long held church tradition and one translation often takes into consideration earlier ones. But the fact that there are differences should also tell you something. If you look at the 1st Century usage of those words outside of the NT context, I think you will find that there is less confusion.

And has it occurred to you to ask why Paul would have used a different word in Titus than he did in Timothy? And why the Bible translators translate those two different Greek words essentially the same, even though they have different meanings? Do you think it even remotely possible that Paul actually used different words to actually convey a different meaning? And have you considered the full context of each passage? And in that context, why a different word was called for to describe the people that Paul was talking about? The context reveals a very significant difference.

Tom

[olger]

Guys...

Here is the text:

"The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. Honour widows that are widows indeed." The juxtaposition between older women & younger women clearly indicates that Paul was referring to an age distinction in his pragmatic counsel how to treat people in the church. I can't believe someone would try to say that Paul is acknowledging women elders when he has already outlined the qualification for an elder as "The husband of one wife."

As Dr. LaRondelle said. "We must respect the context."

[Tom Wetmore]

Gerry, that's the text, but not the context.

Tom

[John317]

...If your position is that women were never elders in the NT era, a single example of a woman elder disproves that position.

1 Tim. 5: 2 is the only verse that uses the word presbuteras, so if you are ever going to find proof that women were elders in the NT church, that is where you must find it. The problem is, that both the context and the way it is translated in all translations shows that this verse is talking about "older women," not female elders.

What would the female elder do? She would "direct the affairs of the church" and be a "shepherd of the God's flock" (1 Tim 5: 17 and 1 Peter 5: 1). That would, of course, include teaching and preaching before the congregation. Yet the apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that "I do not permit a woman [i.e., any woman] to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. Because Adam was formed first, then Eve." So for the New Testament church to have a woman elder would flatly contradict Paul's instructions. There is just no way to have a female elder or pastor who does not teach or have authority over men.

It is important to note that Paul wrote that statement to the church at Ephesus, because in all probability, one of the women at the church in that city was Priscilla, the woman who worked with her husband Aquila in teaching Apollos the gospel. Therefore when Paul said, "I allow no woman to teach or have authority over a man," Paul was probably including the highly educated Priscilla. Ephesus was their home church.

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Besides, you've already conceded that the SDA church is not bound by the organization of the NT church.

Not in every detail, of course not. But that doesn't mean the church is now free to do whatever she feels like. The church is still bound to obey the commands of God's word. There is much about church organization for which God hasn't given us a command, but the clear statements of Paul in 1 Cor. 14: 34 and 1 Timothy 2: 11-14 are commands, not mere descriptions of procedure. They are Paul's instructions to the church, and we believe these instructions were inspired by the Holy Spirit for the church's benefit.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Have you looked up the word as it occurs in 1 Tim 5: 1 and 2 in any of the Greek-English Lexicons?

Yes.

Name the Lexicon, please, and tell what it gives under 1 Tim 5: 1 and 2.

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John 3: 17---What translations simply translate 1 Tim. 5: 1 as "elder"?

Quote:

KJV, ASV, Darby, Webster, to name a few.

On presbuteros in 1 Timothy 5: 1, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon gives, "advanced in life, an elder, a senior."

Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (p. 706) has "the older ones" for 1 Tim 5: 1.

New American Standard: "an older man."

NIV: "an older man"

NKJV-- "an older man"

1 Timothy 5: 2--

The ASV-- "the elder women"

KJV-- "the elder women"

Darby-- "elder women"

I could easily put up over 50 more translations for both of these, all reading the same way. None read "female elder," or something with similar meaning.

I don't know of a single commentary or translation that shows this to be a female elder.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[there buster]

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The church is still bound to obey the commands of God's word.

Fine. Produce the commandment. Of God.

[Taylor]

But that doesn't mean the church is now free to do whatever she feels like. The church is still bound to obey the commands of God's word. There is much about church organization for which God hasn't given us a command, but the clear statements of Paul in 1 Cor. 14: 34 and 1 Timothy 2: 11-14 are commands, not mere descriptions of procedure. They are Paul's instructions to the church, and we believe these instructions were inspired by the Holy Spirit for the church's benefit.

So as long as the church has female pastors, or females in any position of "authority" where there are men working under then, even if we do not ordain women then the church is ignoring God's word and is living in sin.

Wow! Then that premise completely discounts the reality of the explanations and clear greek word analysis already given.

I for one am never going to criticize someone for following the Lord to the very best of their ability and fulfilling the calling that He has placed on their lives for ministry regardless of their gender or age. Too bad Paul isn't here to clear these things up.

[John317]

Quote:

The church is still bound to obey the commands of God's word.

Fine. Produce the commandment. Of God.

The commands of the New Testament are the commands of God. God inspired the Bible. God inspired Paul and others to write what they did. Specifically, 1 Cor. 14: 34, 35 and 1 Timothy 2: 9-14 are the Word of God, just as the rest of Scripture is the inspired, holy Word of God.

This is what Seventh-day Adventists believe: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...." (1 Tim. 3: 16).

After the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write 1 Cor. 14: 34 and 35, Paul wrote, "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord" (v. 37).

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[there buster]

1 Cor 14 is an "occasional writing," that is, it was stimultaed by a series of problem/challenges in Corinth. It was instructions to that church, not the church at large.

When the circumstances (context) of today's church match the circumstances in Corinth, where the problem/challenge is the same, then the counsel applies.

Attempting to universalize the counsel to specific churches is a misuse of Scripture. You would not want to apply Galatians to an already permissive church, for example.

A responsible, exegetical question would be, 'what circumstances occasioned this counsel concerning women?' And for application, 'where are these same circumstances found today?'

General epistles are a different matter, but in those cases, also, circumstances and context apply.

Now as to Timothy. I have a question. If you're prepared to insist that Paul's argument "I never let. . .etc" has the force of a command, how about this earlier verse?

v. 8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

Is that, too, a 'commandment?' If so, how would you propose enforcing it? If not, why not?

[Gregory Matthews]

If you check all the Greek-English lexicons you will find it refers to older people, and this is how all the translations read. "Elder women" (American Standard). Let me know if you have any translations that give the impression this refers to anyone besides elderly people. Also check all the commentaries you have access to.[\quote]

Alright folks, your have finally motivated me to dig into the Greek. And, I do not do that very often.

It was stated that all of the Greek-English lexicons refer to presbuteros(a)(n) as referencing elderly people. That statement can clearly be challenged.

First it is very important to examine the lexicons that you are using. Some of the most popular are likely to give the most common meaning of a word, and skip other well-known meanings.

In addition, while concordances such as Strong's and Young's are helpful, that helpfulness is most evident in listing where Greek and Hebrew words are used in the Bible. When it comes to defination of the meanings of thsoe words they are typically lacking, and only point people in a direction.

A good lexicon is going to do all of the following:

a) It will list the Biblical useage of a word with texts.

It will list the multiple meanings of the word, again with texts.

c) It will list the common useage of the word, in the culture of the day, along with textual examples from the seccular literature which illustrate the useage.

d) It will list the development of that word.

The so-called gold standard as a Greek-Engllish lexicon of the New Testament is commonly called Arndt and Gingrich. Any one who really wants to go to an authorative source will reference that lexicon.

Let us look at how Arndt and Gingrich treat the Greek word that may be transliterated by presbuteros(a)(on)

1) It is clear that it has a common useage related to age as in the elderly. It is used to contrast an older person with a younger person.

2) A & G clearly tell us that Presbuteros developed in the Christian years as the English word "priest." In its plural forum, during the Christian years, they preached and exhortated in the congregations, and in clerical rank they were under the Bishop, and above the Deacon.

3) A & G tell us that in the Johannine letters this word is used to indicate a person of greatt dignity, or in English, and Elder. They suggest the same for the book of Revelation.

4) In Judiasm it is used until about 70 AD to indicate an officer of the Synagogue. In Jewish polifical life it is used to indicate a group within the members of the Sanhedrin.

5) In Rome it indicated a Senator.

6) A & G suggest that the word is often has a double meaning which denotes leaders (officials) who are also old or elderly.

7) Yes, A & G make a comment that implies their understanging of the word as used in I Timothey 5:2. I am not going to give that away. Whichever direction they went, others can challenge it. I believe that I have given enough information here that people can look at the Timothy passage and get an idea as to how it should be defined. So, I intentionally leave it to you-all to study it out. By doing this, I will not turn off those who accept another view of this passage.

NOTE: Biblical doctrines should not depend upon one verse, but upon the whole. Whatever position one takes as to the meaning of the word in the Timothy passage, other useages of the word msut be individually studied as they may or may not have the same meaning.

[John317]

A &G Greek/English Lexicon (p. 706) has: "--Fem. presbutera old(er) woman (opp. veotera, as Gen. 19: 31) 1 Tim 5: 2."

This is the reading of every translation made into English. I've studied this one text in more than 50. Not to speak of the translations I've seen that were made into Spanish, and Latin, and German.

The SDA Bible Commentary also agrees that it is referring to old women, not to female elders.

Look also at the context:

Paul tells Timothy to exhort presbutera as mothers, and to exhort the younger women as sisters. He contrasts the older women with the younger women.

Regards.

"John 3: 17"

[Taylor]

Thank you Gregory! I appreciate your input.

[John317]

...NOTE: Biblical doctrines should not depend upon one verse, but upon the whole. Whatever position one takes as to the meaning of the word in the Timothy passage, other useages of the word msut be individually studied as they may or may not have the same meaning.

Thank you Gregory. I agree. I intend to do that after I get some shut-eye.

I just checked the Greek translations of the Old Testament (LXX) and found the word presbutera used in Gen. 19: 31, thus, "And the elder said to the younger..."

The word presbutera is translated "elder [woman]," which is exactly the way it is used in 1 Tim. 5: 2.

Verse 31 of Gen. 19 also contains the word presbuteros and means "old [man]," just as it does in 1 Tim. 5: 1.

Don't you think that after someone has found that 50+ translations consistently read the same way and agree with all the Greek-Lexicons, one can be fairly certain that one has the correct translation?

But let us keep looking at this word as it it occurs in 1 Tim. 5: 2, which carries exactly the same meaning as Titus 2: 3 and is always so translated.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Challenge it on the basis of exactly what?

Remember that on this word as used in 1 Timothy 5: 2, there is complete agreement among the translations as well as among all the Greek Lexicons and dictionaries.

If one must force this verse to say something it does not, just in order to make a case for a female elder in the NT church, then one is grasping at straws in a way that would embarrass even the most dedicated "Jehovah's Witness."

I will continue to show evidence regarding 1 Tim 5: 2 and Titus 2: 3, but there comes a point where it should be recognized that those verses simply do not support female elders. Perhaps that support may be discovered elsewhere in the New Testament.

I have to get some sleep, but in the meantime, would anyone like to offer a good reason to challenge the meaning of 1 Tim. 5: 2 as given in all the English translations and in all the Greek Lexicons, to say nothing of the Greek text books?

Also, has anyone seen a translation of 1 Tim. 5: 2 that says something besides, "old woman," etc.? If so, please name the translation.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Taylor]

Joh 3:17 did you even read what Gregory Matthews posted? He gave ample evidence that there is more than one meaning. It seems that no matter what evidence there is, some people don't want to even acknowledge any other evidence.

Oh well....

[Taylor]

Joh 3:17 did you even read what Gregory Matthews posted? He gave ample evidence that there is more than one meaning.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

By the way, if Paul meant a female "elder" he would have simply used the word presbuteres, a word that, however, does not occur in the NT...

Well actually it does occur in the NT, since that is precisely the word used by Paul in 1 Timothy 5:2.

Tom

What Greek text are you using, Tom? My Greek text at 1 Tim. 5: 2 has presbuteras, which is the only time that word occurs in the feminine gender. Let me remind you that it is translated in all English translations-- every last one-- as "older women" or "elder women," and that all the Greek Lexicons and dictionaries agree with this meaning at this verse. You won't find a single competent translator of Greek on the face of the earth who has ever translated this verse any other way.

Richard Lattimore, one of the most distinguished translators of Greek who translated dozens of Greek texts for publication, translated 1 Tim. 5: 2, as "older women."

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Joh 3:17 did you even read what Gregory Matthews posted? He gave ample evidence that there is more than one meaning.

Yes, I did, but I would be interested in what you get out of his post, and particularly what you believe to be the meaning of the Lexicon he referred to.

All of the Greek lexicons give only one meaning of that word at 1 Tim 5: 2, and every single translation into English gives it the same meaning, "old women."

It is the only occurrence of that word in the Bible in the feminine gender. All other occurrences are masculine and refer to men.

The context of that verse shows that it is referring to old women, not to female elders. That is why it is so translated in every Bible in English or Spanish or any other language that you will ever buy or read.

Have you ever seen a translation in any language that translates 1 Tim. 5: 2 any other way than "old women"?

Is it possible that tens of thousands of scholars who have spent their lives studying Greek are wrong in the way they translate 1 Tim. 5: 2?

Is this the best evidence in the NT for female elders? If there is a lot more evidence for it, it seems like a good idea to look elsewhere than at a word that all the authorities agree does not refer to female elders.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Taylor]

That the word has more than one meaning is quite clear. I could restate what has already been posted but that would be redundant.

[John317]

Joh 3:17 did you even read what Gregory Matthews posted? He gave ample evidence that there is more than one meaning. It seems that no matter what evidence there is, some people don't want to even acknowledge any other evidence.

Oh well....

This is the line to pay attention to in the Lexicon that Gregory referenced:

A &G Greek/English Lexicon (p. 706) has: "--Fem. presbutera old(er) woman (opp. veotera, as Gen. 19: 31) 1 Tim 5: 2."

This is the reading of every translation made into English. I've studied this one text in more than 50. Not to speak of the translations I've seen that were made into Spanish, and Latin, and German.

What is the evidence that you see that it should be translated in any other way?

If you were to take that text to a professor of Koine Greek and ask him how it should be translated, and if he should tell you, "old women," would you dispute his knowledge and experience in the language and in the text? On what basis would you dispute or challenge it? On the basis of what evidence?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"