History of Women Elders and Pastors

[John317]

Quote:

I support the way our church has decided to do it. I don't support the power of local congregations to ordain their own ministers apart from the authorization of the conferences.

I see. So the church in Antioch -- even though their action is recorded approvingly in Scripture, and even though it resulted in great benefit to the church-- is not our example.

Or, put another way, we are not bound to the various procedures described in the NT.

Does it appear to you reasonable or desirable to tie the church to all the procedures exactly as they were done in the NT?

Do you believe that if the church does not do so, then it is free to dispense with all the NT instructions regarding the church, such as those regarding the role of women in the church?

I love discussing these things, but I really have to leave now. I'll be back tomorrow to take it up again. I hate to go but I gotta.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[olger]

Ed, the vote was indeed solely on women's ordination in Indianapolis. 1990

In Utrecht it was "Let each division do as they please on this matter" (end run). 1995

yessir

[olger]

1990. By a 3 to 1 margin (1173 to 377) the world church rejected the proposal.

1995. By a vote of 1481 to 673, the GC session at Utrecht voted to reject the NAD request for "local ordinations"--suggesting that the pro-ordination arguments were still not convincing.

historian olger

[Beryl]

Quote:

But again, notice they were not priests, a position comparable to pastor or elder in the church.

The priests throughout the OT were physical representatives of Christ, with their work of dealing with the sacrificial offerings. Their work was not the same as for the ministers of today. The priesthood finished when Christ was crucified.

Galatians 3:28,29. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".

Acts 2:1-4 "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place...(see ch. 1:13,14)...ALL of them were filled with the Holy Spirit."

I won't waste any more of my time discussing this subject.

God bless

Beryl

[there buster]

Quote:

Does it appear to you reasonable or desirable to tie the church to all the procedures exactly as they were done in the NT?

I am not advocating that. I'm pointing out that we do not do so. Our ordination is something that we invented, and we can change.

Quote:

Do you believe that if the church does not do so, then it is free to dispense with all the NT instructions regarding the church, such as those regarding the role of women in the church?

The NT has no instructions regarding our form of ordination, as you have just conceded.

[there buster]

Quote:

I won't waste any more of my time discussing this subject.

I sympathize, and I think that's a reasonable position.

But you better be careful. If you speak of wasting time, couple of folks might call you 'rude.'

I wouldn't agree, but that won't stop them.

[there buster]

I surrender. You have successfully harvested a nit.

[John317]

Ok Thanks that is helpful. I still think one thing is clearly societal and one thing is clearly sin. I just don't see women pastors as a sin in any context but homosexuality is a sin in every context..at least that is way I understand it. And I don't think you can ever find scriptural support for homosexuality but Tom has posted much support from both the Bible and EGW for women in ministry.

When it comes to homosexuality and the Bible, the problem is that many argue that Paul was conditioned by his times and his society to condemn homosexuality, and that Paul is not expressing how God feels about it. They argue that the homosexuals whom Paul was discussing were not the same as the gay people of modern times.

Perhaps you can see how this kind of argument is similar to the one some people are using to ignore or set aside Paul's writing about women's role in the church. Some say that Paul's words convey his own opinion rather than God's command.

My concern about this results from my experience in gay churches and hearing arguments against the idea that the Bible condemns homosexuality. I read their pamphlets on it more than 35 years ago. These same ideas are now entering even into some quarters of the SDA church.

This is what I am concerned about. I have no personal objection to a woman being a pastor. I identify with women far more than with men, to be honest. My concern is theological and biblical.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

Does it appear to you reasonable or desirable to tie the church to all the procedures exactly as they were done in the NT?

I am not advocating that. I'm pointing out that we do not do so. Our ordination is something that we invented, and we can change.

Quote:

Do you believe that if the church does not do so, then it is free to dispense with all the NT instructions regarding the church, such as those regarding the role of women in the church?

The NT has no instructions regarding our form of ordination, as you have just conceded.

Yes, I believe there are things such as this that the Bible gives the church freedom to change.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

But again, notice they were not priests, a position comparable to pastor or elder in the church.

The priests throughout the OT were physical representatives of Christ, with their work of dealing with the sacrificial offerings. Their work was not the same as for the ministers of today. The priesthood finished when Christ was crucified.

Galatians 3:28,29. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".

Acts 2:1-4 "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place...(see ch. 1:13,14)...ALL of them were filled with the Holy Spirit."

I won't waste any more of my time discussing this subject.

God bless

Beryl

We're in agreement here about all that you posted here.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Which way do you have of supporting the way the church does things. Do you really support it or just say it does things differently than it SAYS it does things. I am still confused about how you can believe that the church has decided against women elders. Can you clarify ....

Quote:

"I support the way our church has decided to do it."John317

Quote:

"The distinction is clear by the fact that the General Conference voted against ordaining women to be elders" John317

THE CHURCH

Quote:

1984, October: Annual Council.

Women elders’ ordination policy reaffirmed.

Annual Council reaffirms 1975 Spring Meeting decision that women may be ordained as local elders. Votes to "advise each division that it is free to make provisions as it may deem necessary for the election and ordination of women as local church elders." Thus the provision is extended from NAD to the world field.

How is it that you support the church but yet deny what the church says and does?

[Woody]

Beryl ... thank you so much for all that you added to the discussion. At least some had a discussion. Some used debate tactics to avoid discussions. I am tempted to say that I appreciated that you were so Biblically sound with your posts ... but then those against WO have placed themselves as the only side that uses the Bible correctly and actually prays. I guess the rest of us are just scum bags.

You know ... you would think our Salvation was at risk if we listened to a woman. Something this "important" should have been a whole lot clearer for all these theologians. Oh, I forgot ... the ones that support WO have a hidden agenda to support gays. And they don't listen to the Holy Spirit. I just keep forgetting all this. Forgive me.

[Taylor]

But that is the crux of the problem. We (at least not I) are not ignoring or setting aside Pauls' writings in any way shape or form. There is just more to be seen not only in his writings but in the Bible as a whole to make his statement clear to us on the opposite side. No one can pick and choose what part of the Bible they can understand but just like the Rich Man and Lazarus doesn't support life after death and ever buring hell, and the texts on Sunday don't support Sunday sacredness, just in the same way these texts may well not be saying what you think they are saying. I would NEVER throw out any part of the Bible but a complete understanding is needed.

[Taylor]

Quote:

I completely understand why the church took the position it took as they would like to remain united on as many issues as possible. That is admirable.

Yes and no. The vote was not directly on women's ordination. It was whether to let different world divisions make their own choice in these matters.

And the overwhelming vote was that there could be no variation.

True.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Where do you find that Paul refers to female elders of the church of Ephesus? What is the Greek word used to specify them? Is it the same word as used in Acts 20: 17; 11: 30; 14: 23; Matt. 16: 21?...

That would be 1 Timothy 5:2. Paul here uses the feminine form of presbuteros, the same noun as used in the preceding verse and each of the verses you indicate as well as about 60 other times in the NT. As is often suggested this does not simply mean elderly women, since the Greek word for simply elderly is presbus, a word that Paul knew and used in Titus 2 referring to older men and older women. If one takes the immediate context of Paul's counsel to Timothy just a few verses before in 1 Timothy 4:14 Paul is speaking of the body of elders, presbuterion that had ordained Timothy.

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

My concern is theological and biblical.

Personally I think we all are in that camp. Would you suggest that you are the only one with that criteria? Both sides us that concern. So, I am not sure why you would mention it except to indicate that your concern trumps the others concerns.

I think I should proclaim an "ego" patrol to point out the use of words that makes one side seem superior. I don't think most are even aware of how they sound.

It would be nice to give all sides some credit ... Like both sides want to follow what the Bible says .... and both sides actually pray ... and both sides are lead by the Holy Spirit.

I know these thoughts are revolutionary. And some may have difficulty accepting these ideas ... but it is simple respect of each other to believe as I have outlined. After all we are Christian brothers and sisters.

WE really don't have to make ourselves superior to someone who thinks differently.

[Taylor]

Beryl ... thank you so much for all that you added to the discussion. At least some had a discussion. Some used debate tactics to avoid discussions. I am tempted to say that I appreciated that you were so Biblically sound with your posts ... but then those against WO have placed themselves as the only side that uses the Bible correctly and actually prays. I guess the rest of us are just scum bags.

I agree that I have appreciated so much what Beryl has posted. I do feel that those who oppose women as pastors think they are following the Bible and the rest of us are ignoring counsel or haven't chosen to follow the Biblical counsel or are in rebellion or something. But I haven't been made to feel like a scum bag. It pains me to know you have felt that.

The only thing I have been able to take from this total discussion, (besides the fact I am grateful to know that there are people who want women to follow the Lord's calling no matter how unpopular), to give each other room to believe what we believe. I know some will say that means "each did what was right in his own eyes" but I don't see it that way at all. I see honest people on both sides of the issue who truely feel they have the correct interpretation.

[Woody]

Ditto ... see my post above.

[Tom Wetmore]

By the way, if Paul meant a female "elder" he would have simply used the word presbuteres, a word that, however, does not occur in the NT...

Well actually it does occur in the NT, since that is precisely the word used by Paul in 1 Timothy 5:2.

Tom

[Woody]

I would just add that it DOES make me feel like a scum bag to know that :

I don't believe in what the Bible says ...

And I do that so that I can continue in some certain purposeful sin or promoting of homosexuality ...

or that I don't pray ...

I don't use the Holy Spirit ... on and on.

This is what the other side implies. So, how does that make YOU feel? Like I say ... we need an ego patrol.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...Where do you find that Paul refers to female elders of the church of Ephesus? What is the Greek word used to specify them? Is it the same word as used in Acts 20: 17; 11: 30; 14: 23; Matt. 16: 21?...

That would be 1 Timothy 5:2. Paul here uses the feminine form of presbuteros, the same noun as used in the preceding verse and each of the verses you indicate as well as about 60 other times in the NT. As is often suggested this does not simply mean elderly women, since the Greek word for simply elderly is presbus, a word that Paul knew and used in Titus 2 referring to older men and older women. If one takes the immediate context of Paul's counsel to Timothy just a few verses before in 1 Timothy 4:14 Paul is speaking of the body of elders, presbuterion that had ordained Timothy.

Tom

If you check all the Greek-English lexicons you will find it refers to older people, and this is how all the translations read. "Elder women" (American Standard). Let me know if you have any translations that give the impression this refers to anyone besides elderly people. Also check all the commentaries you have access to.

I'll get back you on this tomorrow and we can discuss more.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Neil D]

I know what you mean about the "tall order," but I think it can be done here. I just stay on subject no matter what. I can guarantee you that I myself will keep civil, rational, and totally unheated. Deal!

I live in Southern California, not far from Loma Linda, and I love discussing all aspects of the Bible. But I also enjoy studying and discussing literature, history, social sciences, philosophy, etc. Come any time!

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

Ok, but i am gonna be strict...!

Good night...I am gone for 6 hours and you guys up and get very wordy on me...13 pages of wordiness!!!! Well, haven't looked at the end yet...but surely there is some emotional issues that have come up and someone has gotten emotionall some wheres...13 pages in 6 hours! That has got to be some record somewheres...and for that many pages to come about in a short time...[gleefully said] SOMEONE has gotten to have been emotional somewheres....

[Tom Wetmore]

Actually I am just considering the Greek as it reads. A number of translations use "elder women". How finely must one split this hair, since it could also be translated "women elders". But when it is referring to the men in the preceding verse, the very same word in its masculine form (which can also be used inclusive of male and female) is simply translated "elder" in most of the same translations. But why are you now back-peddling off this very idea that you postulated for the verses in Titus 2!?!? You said "if Paul meant a female "elder" he would have simply used the word presbuteres,... The masculine form of the noun, referring to male officers in the church, is presbuteros, which occurs many times." Strange isn't it that in 1 Timothy 5:2 it is downgraded to mean old women, just like in the single reference to Phoebe, the female diakonos "minister" gets downgraded to "servant"!

Tom

[Gregory Matthews]

This is true. My grandmother was a licensed Bible worker and worked right alongside of my grandfather who was an ordained SDA pastor and evangelist. She had no desire or ambition to be an ordained pastor because she recognized the Bible's teachings on that issue and she was happy doing what she believed God had called her to do.[\quote]

Did God call her to work beside your grandfather for less pay than he recieved? Bible Workers aare paid less than clergy.

[Gregory Matthews]

Culture and dthe Bible:

I have read a lot of posts that tell us that the Bible teaches that men should be the head of the house.

What about societies in which women are the head of the home?

I lived for several years in South Korea. There women are clearly the ruler of the home. In the traditional Korean home the man give his employment check to the wife. She gives him an allowance, and spends the rest as she plaeses. She may purchase property without his knowledge. She rules.

However, when they go out in society, he is King, and she likely walks behind him.

But, in the home, she rules.