suicide

[Woody]

Out of curiosity, is there anyone in this thread who's speaking from a "been there, done that" point of view? I'm often astounded at the audacity of some who presume to speak as if they were in the know--having never experienced the life situations that can cause a man toward suicidal tendencies.

Cricket ... I am willing to bet that many like myself have had relatives who have done this. I've expressed my belief on this topic in the first response to the question. Like I said .... I don't see it as the unpardonable sin which was what I thought the topic of this thread was.

[Woody]

Quote:

Thankfully in our family we have not.

Interesting that it HAS in my family and twice ... but I am being accused of making fun of suicide .... and Ellen White. Anything else that I am doing ... Oh Yes .... I am not showing "tolerance". ??

Hey ... maybe Male Man will like me now. Am I being "tough" enough?

And bonnie ... the next time you "think" I am making fun of someone or something ... you could always ask instead of going off the deep end.

[cricket]

Cricket ... I am willing to bet that many like myself have had relatives who have done this.

[Woody]

Quote:

In fact any denomination that could have the slightest degree of respect for anything she had to say would have me running for the door.

Bonnie .... I am just not sure what to make of this.

I am one that speaks my mind clearly and not in riddles. I very much appreciate the writings of Ellen White. They have made a big and positive impact on my life.

So, I am sorry and also confused as to why you would make this statement. The writings of Ellen White have been a source of encouragement and drawing power for the Church. She has blessed many of us. And we do respect her. I don't see why anyone would run away from that respect.

Could you explain your problem with her? Maybe you could start a new thread on the topic or send me a PM. I really don't want to hijack this topic any further. My apologizes for doing it so far. But, I didn't want people to be confused by your comments.

[Neil D]

Quote:

A suicide is not thinking correctly. It is literally sick , and those who make known that they are suicidal, are crying out for help.

Now Neil ... You should know ...

Quote:

"It is a sin to be sick" CH 37

And don't you forget it for ....

Quote:

"It is a sin to forget"

COL 359

And don't doubt my words ... for ....

Quote:

"It is a sin to doubt."

(RH, April 22, 1884 par. 6)

And if you are considering praying for someone who is sick ...

first of all you should find out if they are paying their tithe according to Ellen White ...

Quote:

In the book Healthful Living in the chapter "Prayer for the Sick" p. 237 "We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church."

Redwood, you're sick.....And that's all I am gonna say on that subject.... and I was gonna say that you are gonna drive me to suicide....but I won't do that...

Someone wanted to know if others here have had experiences with suicide....I had one of my best friends commit suicide, while the doctor changed one of his medications...He went off one med for 3 weeks to start another med. If you know anything about those types of medications, it takes 3 weeks for EACH med [in his case a total of 6 weeks] to get out of the system and get reestablished. During this time, my friend couldn't handle the depression and when up to the mountains to drink himself to death. He was a christian too....and I miss him as well...

My daughter was known to cut herself while in Acadamy...We rushed to get her some therapy double quick...She was depressed over the marriage of her parents....That is as close to suicide as I ever want to get.....

[Woody]

I am a "sinner" I know that for sure Neil.

And a sick one at that.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil

Also, how can you insist that in a pratical sense, our seniors who have lived 80,90, and even 100 years, who are dependant upon medications, and becoming forgetful, are not commiting suicide? When the price of meds become too high, or they become forgetful, and DONT take the necessary medications, is not that a form of suicide?

No, no, no. If you will read the previous posts, you will find that I addressed a similar question and was informed that suicide is the "deliberate" act of killing oneself.

What?!?!? And knowing that if you don't take the meds will eventually kill you is NOT deliberate??? I am sorry, but this I don't understand....What is the difference to putting a gun to your head and not taking your medication that will allow your body to sucessfully work? It's still killing yourself. One is quicker than the other.... Excuse my insensitivity on this, but I just plain don't understand....

[LifeHiscost]

Each case is different but when I think about those who have committed suicide in the Bible it doesn't look good.

" Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and braced himself against them, the one with his right hand and the other with his left."

Judges 16:29 NASB

"And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life." Judges 16:30 KJV

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

For by it the men of old gained approval.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets " Heb 11:1,2,6,32 NASB underlined mine LHC

Regards!

""

[LifeHiscost]

I further find it offensive for them to use their explanation of my thoughts and feelings as justification for assigning eternal damnation.

We can be grateful that responsibility is left in the hands of the God known as Love.

"And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." Exodus 34:5-7 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I appreciate greatly the seriousness with which you are approaching this topic.

Would it be totally out of character to recognize that Jesus spent all of His life knowing that His actions were leading directly to His own death?

There are some having committed suicide who honestly believe they are relieving someone else of a burden they personally have caused.

" I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." John 10:11 NASB

Regards!

[Woody]

Good point LHC. But to the conservative ... it is still a sin and it is ones actions that determine the issue of Salvation or not. So, since this sin was not repented of ... the person is lost.

To the Liberal ... we all are saved and it doesn't matter what you do.

I would propose another option. God is the judge in my mind .... And HE judges the heart ... not the individual sins. Perhaps LHC that one might fit better into what you have said.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

LHC said:

Quote:

Would it be totally out of character to recognize that Jesus spent all of His life knowing that His actions were leading directly to His own death?

There are some having committed suicide who honestly believe they are relieving someone else of a burden they personally have caused.

I have wondered if Jesus committed suicide. Even though he was, in essence, murdered by the Roman soldiers, Jesus had the power, the wherewithal, to save himself. So, it seems to me that Jesus DID commit suicide.

The same thing in the Nazi concentration camps. There are reports that some people volunteered to die in the place of someone else. Is that suicide?

It begins to seem to me that saying that the definition of suicide is the deliberate taking of one's own life has some exceptions not necessarily seen by others. Perhaps there is a form of altruistic suicide where one feels he/she is doing something that will benefit someone else.

But, I would venture to say that most people who are suicidal are desparate to get away from the pain of life. There just comes a time when death seems preferable to life. And the statement by Tom Wetmore, which Aldona already referred to, is spot on

Quote:

I believe that many who commit suicide had their souls killed by someone else long before they ended their own physical life. We who focus on only the external, want to deal with the body killers. God will deal with the soul killers and will have mercy on the innocent souls they destroyed.

That is one reason why I do not post on some topics. I might have plenty to say, but I know my fragility is rather high in being able to brush aside snide comments from other forum members, and that goes for pm's as well. It is odd. It is much easier to stand up for others than it is to stand up for myself. My counselor says I am an easy target for people who wish to hurt me, especially the passive/ aggressive types. He'd probably right.

[Woody]

Well ... whenever you are able to post Pam ... I very much enjoy what you have to say. We have much to learn from you.

[bonnie]

Don't you think the term suicide is generally meant to desribe those that are desperate and feel without hope.

I wouldn't consider myself suicidal but if it were a choice between my life and that of one of my children or grandchildren wouldn't even be a contest. Most parents would step in the way of a speeding out of control car,a bullet,a fire, never giving a conscious thought to their death.

I don't think the man years ago in the Potomic River that was responsible for saving many lives was suicidal or wishing to die.

But he saved many at the expense of his own life

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Don't you think the term suicide is generally meant to desribe those that are desperate and feel without hope.

I wouldn't consider myself suicidal but if it were a choice between my life and that of one of my children or grandchildren wouldn't even be a contest. Most parents would step in the way of a speeding out of control car,a bullet,a fire, never giving a conscious thought to their death.

I don't think the man years ago in the Potomic River that was responsible for saving many lives was suicidal or wishing to die.

But he saved many at the expense of his own life

That's what I was referring to as altruistic suicide.

*****

I need to step out of this thread..

(no...nobody said anything wrong)

[Robert]

I have wondered if Jesus committed suicide. Even though he was, in essence, murdered by the Roman soldiers, Jesus had the power, the wherewithal, to save himself. So, it seems to me that Jesus DID commit suicide.

In order to redeem the human race from under law Christ, as the son of man, had to take upon Himself the curse of the law - the 2nd death.

Yes, Jesus could have taken hold of His Deity and independent of His Father's will He could have saved Himself, but He didn't!

Why?

He would have become a sinner.

How so?

He would have loved Himself instead of the human race He came to save.

You see on the cross Christ, as the son of man, was faced with a decision. You must remember that Christ was depending on His Father for His resurrection. So when God abandoned Him (that's the 2nd death) the hope of the resurrection forsook Christ.

Now He was faced with tow choices:

1] To come down and save Himself

or

2] To say goodbye to life forever so that you could take His place.

He couldn't pick 1 & 2. It was one or the other....

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

No, no, no. If you will read the previous posts, you will find that I addressed a similar question and was informed that suicide is the "deliberate" act of killing oneself. [/quote']

What?!?!? And knowing that if you don't take the meds will eventually kill you is NOT deliberate??? I am sorry, but this I don't understand....What is the difference to putting a gun to your head and not taking your medication that will allow your body to sucessfully work? It's still killing yourself. One is quicker than the other.... Excuse my insensitivity on this, but I just plain don't understand....

I was responding to the "forgetful" part of your post. Forgetting to take meds is not a deliberate act. But, I do share your questions and would add my own, such as people who know better but deliberately eat, drink, or smoke themselves to death.....

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

I know this is a very serious topic, but I had to chuckle because your question sounds like you are wanting to talk to someone who has committed suicide.

Quite the contrary. I want to QUIT hearing people's assumptions about what a person faced with the thought of suicide is going through, how they're feeling, et cetera; unless, of course that person actually has first-hand knowledge of what those feelings and thoughts were like.

So far, I've seen only two participating in this thread who have actually had to deal first-hand with those emotions. Rudywoofs, who started this thread with the heart-felt need to ask, "[edited in a moment]"; and myself, who has been reading intently trying to make heads and tails of my own experiences all the while having to parse through the condemnatory and judgmental posts of those who have no personal experience of same such feelings.

I greatly appreciate the posts of those who have lost loved ones due to suicide, who approach the thread with a solemn attitude and from the position of wanting to learn more.

In the last year, our family has been through it with a nephew and 2 members of the church we just moved from. All were on various meds, and all were sincere Christians. I don't think you ever get "over" such a thing, but after the shock and tears, I think you just have to give it to God as much as possible or it will drive you insane. You have to keep going for those who are still living and part of your life. For me, humor helps a lot, which is why I appreciate the little snippets of humor that have been injected into this thread. We need to understand that people deal with death/grief differently and not be so judgmental.

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Each case is different but when I think about those who have committed suicide in the Bible it doesn't look good.

" Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and braced himself against them, the one with his right hand and the other with his left."

Judges 16:29 NASB

"And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life." Judges 16:30 KJV

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

For by it the men of old gained approval.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets " Heb 11:1,2,6,32 NASB underlined mine LHC

Regards!

""

John 15:13

[LifeHiscost]

John 15:13

:Jesusfish: Praise God!!

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

My counselor says I am an easy target for people who wish to hurt me, especially the passive/ aggressive types. He's probably right.

You have an edge on some of us, Pam, if you consider being an easy target a weakness.

"...And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." 2 Cor 12:9 KJV

Regards!

[cricket]

In the last year, our family has been through it with a nephew and 2 members of the church we just moved from. All were on various meds, and all were sincere Christians. I don't think you ever get "over" such a thing, but after the shock and tears, I think you just have to give it to God as much as possible or it will drive you insane. You have to keep going for those who are still living and part of your life. For me, humor helps a lot, which is why I appreciate the little snippets of humor that have been injected into this thread. We need to understand that people deal with death/grief differently and not be so judgmental.

Then please remember that there is at least one member of this forum who finds such comments revolting and triggering.

I can assure you--not a single person I've known who's attempted to commit suicide has ever approached the act with humor in his heart. Having spent 14 weeks in intensive therapy, I've met plenty.

Enjoy the topic all you want. Laugh about it. Put snippets of humor in wherever you feel appropriate. At the very least, however, you should change the subject title of your posts to read, "Suicide, A Comic Relief [Warning: Possible Triggers]"

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, Jesus could have taken hold of His Deity and independent of His Father's will He could have saved Himself, but He didn't!

Jesus could have avoided the death of the cross without acting contrary to His Father's will. Just as we are given free will to accept the gift of life or not, so Jesus had free will to abandon us to our folly under the Father's full approval. Jesus' safety was always assured by complete freedom under the heavenly laws of free will. His risk was in the possibility of accepting the laws of the prince of darkness where there is no free will.

"Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

"How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" Matthew 26:52-54 NASB

Regards!

[John317]

...In order to redeem the human race from under law Christ, as the son of man, had to take upon Himself the curse of the law - the 2nd death.

Yes, Jesus could have taken hold of His Deity and independent of His Father's will He could have saved Himself, but He didn't!

Why?

He would have become a sinner.

How so?

He would have loved Himself instead of the human race He came to save.

As the God-man, Jesus Christ could rightly and justly have decided to let the whole of mankind die eternally. Christ came and died for us completely voluntarily, not because He was compelled to, either out of fear of "becoming a sinner," or because He owed anything to mankind. If we say Christ died for us because of His love and grace, we can't then also add that He had to do it FOR ANY OTHER REASON. He came and died for us strictly out of love plus nothing.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

Jesus could have avoided the death of the cross without acting contrary to His Father's will. Just as we are given free will to accept the gift of life or not, so Jesus had free will to abandon us to our folly under the Father's full approval. [/quote']

I agree that Jesus did not HAVE to die on the cross. He died completely of His own free will out of love, not due to feeling compelled to do it lest He become a sinner. He did it first out of love for the Father and, second, out of love for mankind.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"