Doug Batchelor on Hell

[Bravus]

Quote:

black gloves and spike hair do, with dark glasses...created the worlds most dangerous chile..

voodoo chile (slight return)

[Bravus]

(been playing guitar for about a quarter century - heck, approaching a third of a century. soothes the soul)

[Neil D]

Quote:

voodoo chile (slight return)

Yeah, picture if you will, a guy in a white suit, with black rubber gloves, spiked hair and sunglasses holding the world's best tasting hot chile....The picture is from a chile bake off during halloween...

Sorry, I posted the picture once, and I think Naomi has it...maybe Amelia...and the archives of Clubadventist DONT have it...anymore....

Quote:

(been playing guitar for about a quarter century - heck, approaching a third of a century. soothes the soul)

Hope to soothe this soul with an new aquired skill over time....

[Stan]

Back to the topic...

Sometimes the message is more powerful than the messenger.

[Kountzer]

I can play the air guitar. I was a big time Jimi Hendrix fan at least 30 years ago. It's hard to reconcile Jimi and christianity, so I don't listen that much to his music now, if at all. Never thought I'd say that.

[Woody]

Quote:

Back to the topic...

I think you are a little late Stan.

You would have to go back to the very beginning to where anyone discussed about Doug Batchelor on the topic of Hell. I think we just skipped the topic of Hell in fact. So ... bring it back folks.

[CyberGuy]

I like Doug Batchelor but my uncle thinks he preaches to much on doctrine and not enough on the love of Christ. Legalistic Doug seems at times my uncle says.

[Woody]

I think your uncle has some wisdom in that regard. But, I think that the Doug you hear is mostly preaching to the choir. Like most of the Adventist media ... it is for an SDA audience. If you disagree with that then ... I would say that the method would sure need to change to be truly evangelistic. Try listening to Doug and others from an Non-SDA perspective. It don't work.

Non-SDAs would certainly feel that we are legalists if they listened since the sermons are pretty much exclusively geared towards doctrines rather than the gospel message of love, sacrifice and forgiveness.

Try keeping track of what is said some time and I think you will agree. I am willing to bet that I listen to the SDA media more than most here ... and that is what I am seeing.

[Kevin H]

Although it should be expected, this post shows the conflect between tradition and fact.

In the 1800s there was very little formal education, most educated people were self educated. They would do a lot of reading. It was common to have only a few years of formal education.

Ellen White was a speed reader and an incredably well read reader who was self educated and became an expert in her field. She was able to mix her educaton with her visions and her inate skill as a philosopher and an ear for a literary turn of phrase to perform her job.

The myth of the uneducated Ellen White comes from the 1920s. In the summer of 1919 there were two Bible conferences. One in Washington DC lead by General Conference president A. G. Daniels and W. W. Prescott, both hand picked and trained by Ellen White (and in the case of Daniels, by James White.) They were to be assisted by Willie White, but he had business out of town. One of the issues was the attack on the General Conference leadership: Daniels, Prescott and Willie White, by Elder Stephen Haskell by publishing "Haskel's Bible handbook" and it's view of inspration. Therefore one of the topics was the truth about Inspiration.

As this conference ended, many of our teachers and church leaders went up to Philadelphia to an interdenominational Bible Conference, where Fundamentalism became an official part of many churches. In Philadelphia they got a very different view of inspiration than what was taught by Daniels and Prescott in Washington DC (The Philadelphia view was the same as proposed by Haskell in "Bible Handbook" While still living Mrs. White opposed Haskell's views, they could not convince each other and Mrs. White's views were labled as being influenced by Willie and not the Lord.)

Sadly the teachers went home with the Philadelphia view and rejected the Washington DC view. The 1923 General Conference called these hand picked and trained leaders from the Whites "Liberal Modernists and the destroyers of Adventism" Daniels was thrown out of office. Prescott was demoted, Willie got to keep his job, but it was stripped of all authority and influence, becoming mearly a ceromonial position (Basically he was fired but they let him keep the title and office and paycheck) There was a witch hunt in our schools. The religion faculty of Washington Missionary College were kicked out and witch hunts went to our other schools too. Daniel's was replaced by Elder Spicer, who was seen as almost as big a heritic, but while Daniels wanted to push what James and Ellen White taught him about inspiration, Spicer believed in keeping his heresy to himself and not push it on the church.

Out of this witch hunt came calling Mrs. White an inspired commentary on the Bible, and wanting to make it look like a supermiracle that she could do what she could by dumming her down to only a third grade education, and making her lack of education a point that has sadly grown into a tradition.

While Mrs. White had limited formal education, she had what was common for her time, and became an expert by continuing to study on her own. We, justly, brag about Abraham Linclon's self education. We should justly brag about Mrs. White's self education and let this myth in Adventism of the uneducated prophet be disposed of in the trash where it belongs.

By the way, the disciples were also far more educatied than tradition gives them. In a world where most people were illeterate, the people in Israel were very well educated so they could read the Bible. All Synogogues gave the equvalent to a 6th grade education, then most would go on to more schooling. Arachaeologiests say that the "Uneducated" disciples were called uneducated because they did not have doctorates in religion but only the equvalent to our Associates and Batchlor's degrees in fields like business and religion.

Often in advancing their education towards the doctrate level the students would study under fig trees and being under fig trees became a symbol of someone studying for advanced degrees. Nathanael was prepareing for his Ph.D in religion when he started studying under a Rabbi from a town where the people only had a 6th grade education. But compaired to the illiteracy of the rest of the world, even the 6th grade education was more than most people on earth had at the time.

We all have much to learn and to unlearn. Being too well educated can make us too set in our traditions, but not being educated is not what our tradition makes it out to be. God seems to use the well educated who are open to more education, such as Paul and Lydia or the middlely educated people, such as most of the disciples and Mrs. White.

We tend to attract the people that we do because of our traditions making us focus on these people. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel said that Seventh-day Adventists have the best theology in the world, but that we are going to go no where until we learn to present it in a sophisticated and credible manner.

[Johann]

Although it should be expected, this post shows the conflect between tradition and fact.

In the 1800s there was very little formal education, most educated people were self educated. They would do a lot of reading. It was common to have only a few years of formal education.

Ellen White was a speed reader and an incredably well read reader who was self educated and became an expert in her field. She was able to mix her educaton with her visions and her inate skill as a philosopher and an ear for a literary turn of phrase to perform her job.

The myth of the uneducated Ellen White comes from the 1920s. In the summer of 1919 there were two Bible conferences. One in Washington DC lead by General Conference president A. G. Daniels and W. W. Prescott, both hand picked and trained by Ellen White (and in the case of Daniels, by James White.) They were to be assisted by Willie White, but he had business out of town. One of the issues was the attack on the General Conference leadership: Daniels, Prescott and Willie White, by Elder Stephen Haskell by publishing "Haskel's Bible handbook" and it's view of inspration. Therefore one of the topics was the truth about Inspiration.

As this conference ended, many of our teachers and church leaders went up to Philadelphia to an interdenominational Bible Conference, where Fundamentalism became an official part of many churches. In Philadelphia they got a very different view of inspiration than what was taught by Daniels and Prescott in Washington DC (The Philadelphia view was the same as proposed by Haskell in "Bible Handbook" While still living Mrs. White opposed Haskell's views, they could not convince each other and Mrs. White's views were labled as being influenced by Willie and not the Lord.)

Sadly the teachers went home with the Philadelphia view and rejected the Washington DC view. The 1923 General Conference called these hand picked and trained leaders from the Whites "Liberal Modernists and the destroyers of Adventism" Daniels was thrown out of office. Prescott was demoted, Willie got to keep his job, but it was stripped of all authority and influence, becoming mearly a ceromonial position (Basically he was fired but they let him keep the title and office and paycheck) There was a witch hunt in our schools. The religion faculty of Washington Missionary College were kicked out and witch hunts went to our other schools too. Daniel's was replaced by Elder Spicer, who was seen as almost as big a heritic, but while Daniels wanted to push what James and Ellen White taught him about inspiration, Spicer believed in keeping his heresy to himself and not push it on the church.

Out of this witch hunt came calling Mrs. White an inspired commentary on the Bible, and wanting to make it look like a supermiracle that she could do what she could by dumming her down to only a third grade education, and making her lack of education a point that has sadly grown into a tradition.

While Mrs. White had limited formal education, she had what was common for her time, and became an expert by continuing to study on her own. We, justly, brag about Abraham Linclon's self education. We should justly brag about Mrs. White's self education and let this myth in Adventism of the uneducated prophet be disposed of in the trash where it belongs.

By the way, the disciples were also far more educatied than tradition gives them. In a world where most people were illeterate, the people in Israel were very well educated so they could read the Bible. All Synogogues gave the equvalent to a 6th grade education, then most would go on to more schooling. Arachaeologiests say that the "Uneducated" disciples were called uneducated because they did not have doctorates in religion but only the equvalent to our Associates and Batchlor's degrees in fields like business and religion.

Often in advancing their education towards the doctrate level the students would study under fig trees and being under fig trees became a symbol of someone studying for advanced degrees. Nathanael was prepareing for his Ph.D in religion when he started studying under a Rabbi from a town where the people only had a 6th grade education. But compaired to the illiteracy of the rest of the world, even the 6th grade education was more than most people on earth had at the time.

We all have much to learn and to unlearn. Being too well educated can make us too set in our traditions, but not being educated is not what our tradition makes it out to be. God seems to use the well educated who are open to more education, such as Paul and Lydia or the middlely educated people, such as most of the disciples and Mrs. White.

We tend to attract the people that we do because of our traditions making us focus on these people. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel said that Seventh-day Adventists have the best theology in the world, but that we are going to go no where until we learn to present it in a sophisticated and credible manner.

This post needs our attention

[Tom Wetmore]

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

they listened since the sermons are pretty much exclusively geared towards doctrines

"...it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught."Luke 1:3-4 NASB

"Jesus answered them by saying, My teaching is not My own, but His Who sent Me.

If any man desires to do His will (God’s pleasure), he will know (have the needed illumination to recognize, and can tell for himself) whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking from Myself and of My own accord and on My own authority."John 7:16-17 AMP

Since doctrines are teachings, it would seem only logical that what Jesus taught and led His disciples to teach, would carry the message of the gospel, that being what is desired by those willing to listen and follow those teachings.

God cares!

[Neil D]

Although it should be expected, this post shows the conflect between tradition and fact.

In the 1800s there was very little formal education, most educated people were self educated. They would do a lot of reading. It was common to have only a few years of formal education.

Ellen White was a speed reader and an incredably well read reader who was self educated and became an expert in her field. She was able to mix her educaton with her visions and her inate skill as a philosopher and an ear for a literary turn of phrase to perform her job.

The myth of the uneducated Ellen White comes from the 1920s. In the summer of 1919 there were two Bible conferences. One in Washington DC lead by General Conference president A. G. Daniels and W. W. Prescott, both hand picked and trained by Ellen White (and in the case of Daniels, by James White.) They were to be assisted by Willie White, but he had business out of town. One of the issues was the attack on the General Conference leadership: Daniels, Prescott and Willie White, by Elder Stephen Haskell by publishing "Haskel's Bible handbook" and it's view of inspration. Therefore one of the topics was the truth about Inspiration.

As this conference ended, many of our teachers and church leaders went up to Philadelphia to an interdenominational Bible Conference, where Fundamentalism became an official part of many churches. In Philadelphia they got a very different view of inspiration than what was taught by Daniels and Prescott in Washington DC (The Philadelphia view was the same as proposed by Haskell in "Bible Handbook" While still living Mrs. White opposed Haskell's views, they could not convince each other and Mrs. White's views were labled as being influenced by Willie and not the Lord.)

Sadly the teachers went home with the Philadelphia view and rejected the Washington DC view. The 1923 General Conference called these hand picked and trained leaders from the Whites "Liberal Modernists and the destroyers of Adventism" Daniels was thrown out of office. Prescott was demoted, Willie got to keep his job, but it was stripped of all authority and influence, becoming mearly a ceromonial position (Basically he was fired but they let him keep the title and office and paycheck) There was a witch hunt in our schools. The religion faculty of Washington Missionary College were kicked out and witch hunts went to our other schools too. Daniel's was replaced by Elder Spicer, who was seen as almost as big a heritic, but while Daniels wanted to push what James and Ellen White taught him about inspiration, Spicer believed in keeping his heresy to himself and not push it on the church.

Out of this witch hunt came calling Mrs. White an inspired commentary on the Bible, and wanting to make it look like a supermiracle that she could do what she could by dumming her down to only a third grade education, and making her lack of education a point that has sadly grown into a tradition.

While Mrs. White had limited formal education, she had what was common for her time, and became an expert by continuing to study on her own. We, justly, brag about Abraham Linclon's self education. We should justly brag about Mrs. White's self education and let this myth in Adventism of the uneducated prophet be disposed of in the trash where it belongs.

By the way, the disciples were also far more educatied than tradition gives them. In a world where most people were illeterate, the people in Israel were very well educated so they could read the Bible. All Synogogues gave the equvalent to a 6th grade education, then most would go on to more schooling. Arachaeologiests say that the "Uneducated" disciples were called uneducated because they did not have doctorates in religion but only the equvalent to our Associates and Batchlor's degrees in fields like business and religion.

Often in advancing their education towards the doctrate level the students would study under fig trees and being under fig trees became a symbol of someone studying for advanced degrees. Nathanael was prepareing for his Ph.D in religion when he started studying under a Rabbi from a town where the people only had a 6th grade education. But compaired to the illiteracy of the rest of the world, even the 6th grade education was more than most people on earth had at the time.

We all have much to learn and to unlearn. Being too well educated can make us too set in our traditions, but not being educated is not what our tradition makes it out to be. God seems to use the well educated who are open to more education, such as Paul and Lydia or the middlely educated people, such as most of the disciples and Mrs. White.

We tend to attract the people that we do because of our traditions making us focus on these people. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel said that Seventh-day Adventists have the best theology in the world, but that we are going to go no where until we learn to present it in a sophisticated and credible manner.

[Johann]

Although it should be expected, this post shows the conflect between tradition and fact.

How could this happen today?

[Ted Oplinger]

Although it should be expected, this post shows the conflect between tradition and fact.

In the 1800s there was very little formal education, most educated people were self educated. They would do a lot of reading. It was common to have only a few years of formal education.

Ellen White was a speed reader and an incredably well read reader who was self educated and became an expert in her field. She was able to mix her educaton with her visions and her inate skill as a philosopher and an ear for a literary turn of phrase to perform her job.

The myth of the uneducated Ellen White comes from the 1920s. In the summer of 1919 there were two Bible conferences. One in Washington DC lead by General Conference president A. G. Daniels and W. W. Prescott, both hand picked and trained by Ellen White (and in the case of Daniels, by James White.) They were to be assisted by Willie White, but he had business out of town. One of the issues was the attack on the General Conference leadership: Daniels, Prescott and Willie White, by Elder Stephen Haskell by publishing "Haskel's Bible handbook" and it's view of inspration. Therefore one of the topics was the truth about Inspiration.

As this conference ended, many of our teachers and church leaders went up to Philadelphia to an interdenominational Bible Conference, where Fundamentalism became an official part of many churches. In Philadelphia they got a very different view of inspiration than what was taught by Daniels and Prescott in Washington DC (The Philadelphia view was the same as proposed by Haskell in "Bible Handbook" While still living Mrs. White opposed Haskell's views, they could not convince each other and Mrs. White's views were labled as being influenced by Willie and not the Lord.)

Sadly the teachers went home with the Philadelphia view and rejected the Washington DC view. The 1923 General Conference called these hand picked and trained leaders from the Whites "Liberal Modernists and the destroyers of Adventism" Daniels was thrown out of office. Prescott was demoted, Willie got to keep his job, but it was stripped of all authority and influence, becoming mearly a ceromonial position (Basically he was fired but they let him keep the title and office and paycheck) There was a witch hunt in our schools. The religion faculty of Washington Missionary College were kicked out and witch hunts went to our other schools too. Daniel's was replaced by Elder Spicer, who was seen as almost as big a heritic, but while Daniels wanted to push what James and Ellen White taught him about inspiration, Spicer believed in keeping his heresy to himself and not push it on the church.

Out of this witch hunt came calling Mrs. White an inspired commentary on the Bible, and wanting to make it look like a supermiracle that she could do what she could by dumming her down to only a third grade education, and making her lack of education a point that has sadly grown into a tradition.

While Mrs. White had limited formal education, she had what was common for her time, and became an expert by continuing to study on her own. We, justly, brag about Abraham Linclon's self education. We should justly brag about Mrs. White's self education and let this myth in Adventism of the uneducated prophet be disposed of in the trash where it belongs.

By the way, the disciples were also far more educatied than tradition gives them. In a world where most people were illeterate, the people in Israel were very well educated so they could read the Bible. All Synogogues gave the equvalent to a 6th grade education, then most would go on to more schooling. Arachaeologiests say that the "Uneducated" disciples were called uneducated because they did not have doctorates in religion but only the equvalent to our Associates and Batchlor's degrees in fields like business and religion.

Often in advancing their education towards the doctrate level the students would study under fig trees and being under fig trees became a symbol of someone studying for advanced degrees. Nathanael was prepareing for his Ph.D in religion when he started studying under a Rabbi from a town where the people only had a 6th grade education. But compaired to the illiteracy of the rest of the world, even the 6th grade education was more than most people on earth had at the time.

We all have much to learn and to unlearn. Being too well educated can make us too set in our traditions, but not being educated is not what our tradition makes it out to be. God seems to use the well educated who are open to more education, such as Paul and Lydia or the middlely educated people, such as most of the disciples and Mrs. White.

We tend to attract the people that we do because of our traditions making us focus on these people. Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel said that Seventh-day Adventists have the best theology in the world, but that we are going to go no where until we learn to present it in a sophisticated and credible manner.