Why is it that adultery isn't punishable?

[carolaa]

IN my eyes there is only one UNforgiveable sin with divorce ... and that is with the one who files for divorce. That IS "one-sided" fault. The person who gives up hope IS at fault.

All other faults can be worked out. But not the fault of giving up. So, it CAN be one sided. There are always many options rather than divorce. Separation is always preferable to divorce. WHY? It leaves the door open to reconciliation. God does not want divorce. However our selfish desires want it.

I don't agree with this view. First of all, the person giving up hope is doing so for a reason - most likely because the other person is guilty (at fault) of something that is intolerable. They may NEED to get themselves and/or their children out of a situation. Faith and hope are fine, but God isn't going to make someone else change; they have to be open to it, and if they aren't, then they are at least as much at fault.

Second, separation is rarely a good idea in our legal system. With separation, each party is still responsible for the other person's financial behavior. It is far better to cut off all connection that way. That doesn't mean you have to quit hoping, but it's ok to protect yourself.

[fccool]

for the same reason lying is not punishable... religious freedom.

Today we have a screwed up view of marriage as a legal union and we generally honor that part more than that of spiritual union, which I don't think was God's main intent. Even though Ellen white is telling us that God was the one to perform the first marriage ceremony in the garden of Eden, with all of the animals as guests... I don't see that explicitly stated in the Bible. So it leads me to believe that there were no ritualistic side of marriage, or not to the extend we have it today as I don't see it being Biblical emphasis.

Today, state has a great degree of control over your marriage and your children to make your marriage "safer". Of course there are benefits to it, but there are implications too. State is secular and it controls purely religious institution of marriage by legal means. Today people choose not to marry and live together for many reasons, and one of these is the fear of loosing "what's mine" in case of divorce.

It is interesting that when devil set out to tempt humanity he went for a woman. I by no means a misogynist, but feminist movement has done a great deal of damage to the marriage and family. Yes, our lives are more convenient today, yet they are more busy while we are competing to be better. And thus we adopt a spartan and greco-roman view of the world... which is where I believe our obsession with competition comes from. So we willingly give our children to state for "education", both parents are now working to meet the "needs". We have oversized houses that we spent most of our free time in improving. And the greater part of our economic system is geared towards women shoppers, which you have to agree that they spend more time shopping and caring for the house and looks, than spending time with their children (generalizing here).

In light of the above said, I don't think you can call such lifestyle a "marriage"... as it is no different than a "legalized cohabitation". The only difference is that the couple has gone trough the ceremony and now in states books as "married". Without spiritual dimension, there is no difference.

What is the difference in couple divorcing and having new relationships and those of two people living together and then splitting up to have relationships? Is either approved by God?

[carolaa]

Sometimes, an innocent person is not so 'innocent'

So true!!

[carolaa]

Even though Ellen white is telling us that God was the one to perform the first marriage ceremony in the garden of Eden, with all of the animals as guests... I don't see that explicitly stated in the Bible. So it leads me to believe that there were no ritualistic side of marriage, or not to the extend we have it today as I don't see it being Biblical emphasis.

Wow, I never thought about this before, but what kind of ceremony would they have had? What kind of vows would they have made? God didn't need to ask them if they would "take" each other; there was no question they were perfect for each other. Stay together in sickness and health, till death do us part -- huh? What is sickness, what is death? Forsaking all others? Who else is there? Obviously, the "obey" part wouldn't have been included (as it rarely is now). Interesting.

[cricket]

Originally Posted By: cricket

There is no such thing as "no fault" divorces. There is also no such thing as "one-sided" fault divorces.

I disagree. Many times one of the parties simply has a problem that the other one can't live with or do anything about, such as gambling, abuse, addictions, etc., with the intolerable behavior issues that go along with such things. The only thing the other party can be faulted for is for marrying them in the first place, but I don't see how they can be faulted for getting smart and getting a divorce to protect themselves and/or their children from that type of environment.

I disagree with your beliefs. I believe that all things are possible with God. And, if there is something that one person finds to be "intolerable" in his spouse, he should take it the Lord. Else, the onus is shared for the failed marriage.

[Dr. Shane]

Just a little correction:

Quote:

Adultery is even more previous

That should read grievous not previous

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

I disagree. Many times one of the parties simply has a problem that the other one can't live with or do anything about' date=' such as gambling, abuse, addictions, etc., with the intolerable behavior issues that go along with such things. [/quote']

I disagree with your beliefs. I believe that all things are possible with God.

This belief that God overrides human will is heavily flawed. Yes, all things are possible, but God can't do anything in one's life without his or her full permission and consent. Why? Unlike the popular version of God, He cannot and will not force Himself on those who do not give permission. Our "God is agape". That love cannot and will not compel. So while what you say is true it is not the whole story.

Rob

[Guest gem]

IN my eyes there is only one UNforgiveable sin with divorce ... and that is with the one who files for divorce. That IS "one-sided" fault. The person who gives up hope IS at fault.

All other faults can be worked out. But not the fault of giving up. So, it CAN be one sided. There are always many options rather than divorce. Separation is always preferable to divorce. WHY? It leaves the door open to reconciliation. God does not want divorce. However our selfish desires want it.

We live in a "we want it NOW" mentality. Sometimes things that are best take time to come to fruition. But the ones who just give up and "want it now" ... they are at fault.

It is better to get divorced and moved on rather than staying in marriage but the affair of the other one never ends. Well, in the eyes of GOD, is staying in marriage for convenient reason and have neverending affair (plus abuse), OR divorcing, any difference?

One of the pastors that I admired for his work had an affair with his friend's wife. When it became know, he resigned, leave his wife and teen aged children, took his woman to the south part of the country and start on their own together. Few years later, the husband of that woman met another woman and fell in love. They wanted to get married, but since divorce is not allowed or legal, he filed for "missing in action" then "pressume dead" for his wife so he could marry this new woman. And they are now married and happilly living together. OTOH, the mother of the teen aged children remains "single" but still legally married to his pastor husband. Kind of complicated true story.

On the Hollywood side, Elizabeth Taylor remarried her exhusband. Eminem remarried his exwife then later divorced.

Any couple can apply for divorce after one year of separation (in north western part of this globe).

In our town here, there's a transition house for women and children who are being abused. If those children would remain at their home, in a very abusive environment, what would those childrens' future be? One little child said, "Dad's always drunk. Sometimes he stayed at his girlfriend's house. When he comes home, he yells at my mom and I get scared. He said that mom always push his button."

Sooo...

[Robert]

Matt 19:8 “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

[Woody]

Thanks Robert. We want to make all kinds of rules that are not supported in the Bible. We say "What about this" and "What about that".

Bottom line ... there WILL be problems when ONE person in the marriage goes contrary to the Bible. Innocent people WILL hurt.

We can quote all the annocdotal and extreme situations that you can imagine. But in the end ... what does Jesus want us to do? God would have NO divorce. Marriage in His mind is a one shot deal. However ... we want to throw out all the "buts".

I do believe that God would have separation be the solution for many of these situations despite the financial and other hardships. But marriage is for life.

Once you go on the road of excuses that marriage can result in divorce ... you destroy marriage. Emotional or sexual abandonment and on and on. Now days you can use any excuse you want for divorce and the church buys it.

[carolaa]

Now days you can use any excuse you want for divorce and the church buys it.

I have to say I've never seen a church like that. Maybe you mean the denomination as a whole. But the churches I have seen almost always get into the couple's private business and want to make everything public and often end up driving them both away.

[carolaa]

Yeah, it's sad that people feel they need to resort to playing the "church game" to determine what rules were broken, who was at fault, and whom to punish. Some things are better off left with God. But we would rather kick people when they're down and then stand back and judge them when they stop coming to church. Oh, and then we wonder why....

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

What is the will of God for sexual purity? What is the will of God in our marriages? How does God respond to adultery? How should we respond as a church?

Can anything be done to restore a marriage that has been decimated by an affair?

What does the Bible say about these things?

What if both wife and husband committed adultery. Does it matter who did it first? And if the couple chose not to get divorce because of circumstances....I doubt if it will ever be the same again. Restoring a marriage that has been decimated by an affair is not that easy especially if the affair is ongoing. And what if this happens to one of our church leaders - HOW SHOULD WE RESPOND AS A CHURCH.

Good thread, Robert. Thanks.

[carolaa]

We can quote all the annocdotal and extreme situations that you can imagine. But in the end ... what does Jesus want us to do? God would have NO divorce. Marriage in His mind is a one shot deal. However ... we want to throw out all the "buts".

We need to remember that adultery is not an unforgivable sin, and that divorce is not always a sin. I find it extremely interesting that this area is one where many are quick to judge others and hold them to the highest standard. We take people who are at their most vulnerable, emotionally, and we load them up with texts and guilt. It's unbelievably Pharisaical. In no other area of life would we have the audacity to tell someone they should stay in an intolerable situation.

[olger]

Hi Carol.

I never recommend divorce! I recommend separation only if they are about to kill each other.

God is in the business of changing lives,

[carolaa]

I never recommend divorce! I recommend separation only if they are about to kill each other.

God is in the business of changing lives,

That's a nice cliche. Don't get me wrong; I have seen God change many lives and heal a number of marriages. But when they aren't BOTH interested in changing, then I have also seen God work things out so their lives are changed (for the better) through the divorce process.

[Woody]

Quote:

In no other area of life would we have the audacity to tell someone they should stay in an intolerable situation

I agree with you Carolaa. WE have no business "telling" someone what to do. I guess I should have asked if we are talking theological or not here. What I believe personally ... I do not impose on others. That is between them and God.

Having worked as a counselor in a counseling center ... I found that I can't "tell" people what they should believe. They have to be convinced for themselves what they believe.

Yes, Adultry and Divorce are just sins. They are no greater than any other sin. Sin is Sin. And all sin can be forgiven by God. The results are different though. Since we choose sin ... we also have to deal with the results. And the results would be less if we believed as God does that marriage is a one shot deal.

[carolaa]

Yes, Adultry and Divorce are just sins. They are no greater than any other sin. Sin is Sin. And all sin can be forgiven by God.

And divorce is not always a sin.

[Woody]

What is a greater sin ... is how we treat those who sin.

[Woody]

The issue of our leaders sinning depends upon how much perfection you expect from a leader. And which sins you expect to see perfection in.

I prefer seeing the example of forgiveness demonstrated to perfection. How do we treat those who sin ...? The way God treats sinners should be the way WE treat our leaders.

If not ... then I want to see a list of the sins that we expect to see perfection in with our leaders. It should be in their job description.

Otherwise ... we have no business JUDGING Olger. And the Anti-Judging crowd is large and strong Praise God. Our church has suffered enough from the Judging tradition. Thank God we are moving beyond that evil.

As far as what to do with sinful leaders.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto YOU.

Our leaders are no different than you and I. They are just as sinful. To hold them to a higher standard of judgment does not make any sense in my mind.

[fccool]

I think it is quite different deal with leaders though, as I believe they will be held up to a higher standards of judgement IMO. Somebody brought up Hitler resently ( I know I did too), but technically he did not kill anyone. He just gave orders, and people blindly followed. Yet he is the scapegoat when it comes to Germany getting blame for the WWII. So, leaders do take on these positions knowing that they have a greater responsibility of representing and speaking for a great amount of people. It is extremely difficult task, for which they do get my respect. And in a way I can feel why Hitler did what he did. Same goes for Lenin and Stalin. I think that in their own mind they were doing a favor for everyone. People did nothing and we do have dramatic history alterations.

For that reason, leaders need greater accountability than lay people that they represent. A mistake/sin of a lay person may seem the same as mistake/sin of a leader... yet it impacts a lesser scale of people. If SDA president, who represents our body commits adultery, or would be convicted for stealing from the members... it would only prove the point of the critics of the church, which is that religion is solely for exploitation on the masses and clergy are enjoying the unrestrained hypocrisy.

On the other hand, you are right. They are human beings, yet I think that leaders do have a greater degree of God's help as they do need it more to represent people of God. So was the case of Noah, Abraham, Moses and the ones who followed. Because of Moses ' blunder, people got a delayed arrival at the promise land. And Moses himself only got to see it. So, biblically, leaders do experience higher standards in judgement.

[Woody]

Quote:

I think that leaders do have a greater degree of God's help as they do need it more to represent people of God.

I am not so sure that leaders can receive MORE help than the rest of us. I feel we all have the full measure of God's power available to us.

Throughout the Bible we find that "leaders" were actually some of the worst sinners of all. God called them blameless and "after His own heart". These were people who were murderers and theives. But they were also leaders.

This brings the question of what do you want our leaders to lead in? Do you think we should "look" to THEIR life as an example? I think not. We should not look to humans for an example. We should ONLY look to Christ. HE is our example.

So, again I ask. How do you want our leaders to lead? What should they be examples of? The works oriented will say by their works you will know them. But, I think they are there for something far better. But while leading us ... they WILL be hypocrites because we are ALL hypocrites. For ... we are human.

[olger]

Make no mistake, friend. God never refers to David as a man after His own heart AFTER his sin with Bathsheba.

On another note, when we tell people that they can only expect continual sin & wrong choices in their lives, do we not slander the "full measure of God's power available to us" (as you stated)? The Bible does not make this conclusion.

Victory in the Christian life is predicated entirely on the surrender of a man's will. Simple. To put it another way, There is nothing that Christ cannot do with a life given to Him upon condition of surrender.

Thanks,

oG

[olger]

Fccool, you are on target regarding leaders. God holds leaders to a higher standard, and He explains why in His word. You did a good job as well.

The "Don't judge" mantra of the tolerance crowd, fails to understand that a primary meaning of judgement in the Bible is discernment. This suits them well to discard all "judgement" because discerning the fruit in my life or theirs might reveal a rotten apple, and good heavens. We can't possibly accept that, because every point of view is equally valid in the postmodern mindset. Thus to believe one way, implie disbelief in another, and that's untenable.

We have those among us who, in the free spirit mode argue that any statement of faith is restrictive, that our unity must rest in a pooling of diversities, each doing his own thing. This is a segment of the postmodern philosophy that argues that each person is creating reality within his/her own mind, therefore all points of view are equally valid.

Their sole virtue is non-judgmentalism, so of course any kind of statement seems to draw a judgment, for it defines some things as correct, others incorrect. The same mentality also dissolves all absolutes as well, so we are left living without solid guidelines to life.

Sorry if that strays too far from the topic.

Regards,

oG

[olger]

Hi Carol. If both partners aren't willing to be healed than that does present a problem. That is one of the more painful things to watch as a counselor.

First Peter 3 deals with practical insights how a wife may respond to that situation and possibly influence her husband for Christ. The same principles apply to a man whose wife is hardened in unbelief.

oG