Unruly Children

[fccool]

I'd like to apologize in advance to all the mothers who would be reading this. I realize that I come from a somewhat self-centered point on this. But sometimes it drives me nuts when children are running around or standing in the pews, or talking, or crying for extended periods of time... and thus causing people to pay attention to the child instead of pastor's message.

What's your take on that? I can see how parents could get used to their children behavior and not realize that it might be disrupting to the service. I probably would too. Yet, I think it often is, with children shuffling coloring books, talking, crying... We even have some mothers changing diapers during the service.

I'm afraid to even address the issue, because people leave the church for smallest reasons, and I would not want anyone to do so because their child is "not welcomed".

It's a delicate issue, and I think it is important for children to get in the habit of coming to church, yet where's the line... and how would you deal with it?

PS. Currently, I deal with it by learning to block it off :)

[Dr. Shane]

Two answers to the issue. I have proposed them in my own church.

1) Have a children's church service.

2) Set up a screen and projector in the fellowship hall and have the worship service broadcast in there for families with young children.

[fccool]

We do have both of these. We even have a separate mothers room, with a service channeled to it. The problem is that most of the parents do not send their children to these, especially young ones, unless they are crying excessively. Some just roam around and create noise during the service.

Most of the parents prefer the children to be in their view too, which is the reason for them just sitting bored in the pews trying to make the best of their time (I'm talking about kids .

[Woody]

Quote:

how would you deal with it?

You could come prepared by bringing toys ...

When the kids misbehave ... offer them toys or Sabbath books. Depending upon their age ... offer to hold them or bounce them on your leg.

This will do a couple of possible things .... If may impress the parents that you are trying to help them.

OR ... it will bring attention to the fact that they are not doing a good job of caring for their kids and they might try to do better if possible.

I don't think that it matters either way .... Both would be fine in my view.

Actually I find that many times the parents are just plain overloaded and would appreciate the help. You would really be a missionary doing that. But no matter what ... I suspect it will help improve things and eventually you would not need to provide so much help.

You may not be an expert at child care. But you don't have to be. And you could learn.

[fccool]

Some good, and very much appreciated ideas.

[Woody]

Quote:

Shorter sermons....simply impossible to have small children quiet for that period of time. 30 minutes is usually about all they ,kids, can take. If the point of the sermon is not able to be reached in that time period, wellll...most of the adults or not 'there' either!

You haven't heard MY preacher .....

30 min. NO WAY.

And Shirley we can devote more than 30 min of our time per week to God. Shirley. Shirley.

And most children CAN behave and be still.

[Nan]

Nothing to do with kids really but I am married to someone who is a very dynamic preacher when he gets going. And who tends (whispering) to nod off if he is in the pews. We were discussing such just a few minutes ago, driving home, after a service that had a good message. I asked him what he thought and he said it would have been good to read it but not so good to listen to.

And then told the story of someone who was so impressed at the preacher that a few minutes into the service, thought he would put $50 into the offering plate. As the service went on and on, that reduced in increments. When it finally stopped after about an hour, he took $10 from the offering plate!!

And now back to topic....

[Nan]

And for the record, that preacher who lives in this house very rarely confines himself to 30 minutes!!

[Woody]

Quote:

he took $10 from the offering plate!!

A good deacon would have been on top of that and not permitted such robbery of God's money.

[fccool]

red... illustration.... allegory :)

[Woody]

Humor

[fccool]

Code:

You haven't heard MY preacher .....

30 min. NO WAY.

Red, In that regard... I think you get more than a fair share of sermons every one and single day

[Beryl]

Quote:

30 minutes is usually about all they ,kids, can take. If the point of the sermon is not able to be reached in that time period, wellll...most of the adults or not 'there' either!

Most people (adults) have an attention span of about 20 minutes, which, with a good speaker, interesting material, can be stretched to 30 minutes. After that they may be "listening", but not a lot is retained. These days people have been trained to only listen in small sections, mainly because of the "training" they get from watching TV, where you would be fortunate to have more than 10 minutes without having an "advertisment break". That is why a good sermon has "breaks" with illustrations, etc, which enable the listener to relax a little, then concentrate again.

Beryl

[Woody]

I think for you and your children that 30 min. would be adaquate. I don't doubt that some children and adults are unable to listen to a boring sermon. But a well presented one would not be long enough for me and mine at 1/2 an hour. I would want more. I learned at a young age to sit still and listen in church. It has served me well. But I am sure it may not be good for you and yours.

Some people think it is abuse to teach their children to sit still for a sermon. Some think it is good life training. If you are the former ... then I would hope you would provide Childrens Church for them. That can be a great ministry. But, I find no fault in either way if Children's Church is not available.

And yes ... I do get lots of sermons. I even get to hear some more than once. Also ... It is an advantage to be able to pick someone's brain. I never get tired of it even after a half hour.

The Gospel is simple. It should be able to be understood by a child. But, we can make it as dull, boring and complicated as we want.

PS. Let me add that I have heard of a good way to shorten a sermon by a pastor. What is it? Act interested. Act like you understand. If you have a dull confused look ... the pastor is more likely to need to spend more time expounding and reiterating until it looks like the audience understands. Well ... that is what somebody told me once

[Dr. Shane]

A perfect sermon is 20 minutes long. The main points are made in the first 10 minutes and reinforced in the second 10 mintues. If it has to go longer it should be broken into two sermons. When a church has announcements, a choir (or special music), a children's story, opening hymn, offering and closing hymn any sermon that goes much beyond 20 minutes will take the service past an hour.

But even at that, my kids wouldn't sit still.

[Woody]

20 min.?

Try telling that to someone like Stephen Bohr ...

[melvin mccarty]

Is there some biblical support for our idea of how children should "behave" in church? Seems that Jesus rebuked the "elders" who thot the children were disturbing him.

mel

[Woody]

[Liz]

This is my personal story:

While growing up in the church, we were taught to sit still--period, we didn't have coloring books or quiet felt books either; we were expected to sit there quietly throughout the whole service-no matter how long and/or boring it was. If we started to fidget we got my moms raised eyebrow, believe me there is nothing worse than seeing my mother raise that eyebrow; if it stayed up for any length of time you knew you were in BIG trouble.

Now me when I had my babies, after a vigorous time in cradle roll, would snuggle my little one up, and usually put them to sleep. The helpful elders and deacons would still try and push me into the "mother's" room. I went for one week, there was no sound in there. I asked them if they could put sound in the room so that the moms could at least hear the sermon. They said no. So the next week, I again snuggled my baby until he fell asleep, and was again ushered into the room, because "they" didn't want him to wake up and disturb the saints. So you guessed it, we started to just go to Sabbath School and go home. I mean what was the point of going to church when I wasn't allowed in the Sanctuary and they wouldn't put sound in the mother's room?

Luckily for me, by the time my daughter came along they had finally latched on to the idea of children's church.

So back to the original question, of what to do with the unruly children; especially when you have a children's church in place but the parents don't take advantage of it. Find out the real reason parents are not taking advantage of this service. Don't buy into the "I just don't want him out of my site" line, most parents would welcome a break for an hour. That is a cover up line for something else. You could even take a poll--such as "what would you like for the children's service" or "How can we make it better". I bet you will get some great ideas, and once the changes are made you will see people taking advantage of it.

Short of that I also liked the idea someone else had of bringing quiet things for them to do; or you can sit as far away from them as possible.

I beleive that a little tolerance in this area will go a long way for *some*.

DISCLAIMER: When I write *you* I am not talking about anyone specifically, just in general. I type the way I speak.

[Gerr]

Years ago, when my now 36 yo son was only 3 yo, one Sabbath my wife caught him standing on the pew looking back at the people behind us. He was making faces. He had his right index finger pulling on one corner of his mouth and his left finger pulling on the other. My wife took him to the restroom, gave him a paddling, and he never did it again.

Children cry for a variety of reasons. Hunger. Pee or poop in the diaper. Sleepiness. Attend to the child's need.

My observation is that, as a church, we have a lot to learn about reverence in the house of God.

Gerry

[Beryl]

It is unreasonable to expect a young child to sit still for longer than 30 minutes (after having mainly sat through Sabbath School and the first part of the church service). Children are full of energy, and if that energy is suppressed for a long time, it will break out in unacceptable behaviour, and the last part of the sermon is lost on the child, the parents (trying to keep the child quiet) and possibly on the congregation sitting around them.

I have vivid memories of a long sermon when I sat in church with my 3, 6 and 7 year olds, my husband up the front as elder, and a preacher who did not know when he had said enough. The sermon was going on and on. People began wriggling in their seats, and children were getting a bit noisy. Suddenly my little 3 year old says (in a LOUD voice), "Mummy, isn't he finished YET?" The preacher took the hint, and brought the sermon to a close.

The only conversation outside after church was not the minister's sermon, but hearty chuckles about him being finally brought to a close by a 3-year-old. Longer is not better!

Beryl

[fccool]

I do have a problem with pastors who think that God demands us to sit and listen to them for two hours if it takes that . Some really believe that! I hardly think that's the case. I love one of the conference speakers that comes to speak once in a while in our church, but he wastes so much time wondering off on subjects that do not relate at all . Sometimes he spends 15 minutes just telling stories about his hunting experiences and etc... that don't have any connection with what he is dealing with that day. And then he gets upset when people do not come to his meetings he holds, or if they leave in the middle. These people show lack of support, but I think it is a democratic process in a way. If you can't respect people enough to not waste their time, then they would naturally not respect what you have to say too after a while. So, it cuts both ways. I think it is always wise to ask people if it's ok to go over their expected time frame. It would at least show consideration on speaker's part. Our pastor always does it, and people never say no.

[DrWhoCompanion]

We've solved the problem by going to another church. It's not Adventist, but it works. They have a mother's room, with sound (and video). The alternative is a nursery or children's church with actual church activities for the kids.

Haven't been to the Adventist church in over a month, but that's a story for a different thread...

[fccool]

Since we are on topic of children... Don't throw out a baby with a bathwater :)

[Liz]

We've solved the problem by going to another church. It's not Adventist, but it works.

Haven't been to the Adventist church in over a month, but that's a story for a different thread...

I would love to hear this story. We are also in a turmoil about our local church, and I would love to hear about your story. You can PM me if you don't feel comfortable doing this on the boards.