Unruly Children

[DrWhoCompanion]

Mainly, it's a small, conservative congregation. We're pretty liberal. One of the elders called me a moron a few weeks ago for believing in evolution. Also, I'm really into community outreach, and our church doesn't do that. Their idea of community outreach is buying Steps to Christ, leaving copies on people's doors, ringing the doorbell and running off.

My idea for us volunteering at the local soup kitchen was pooh-pooed, as that place sometimes serves unclean meat. I spoke with the director, and he said if we made arrangements ahead of time, we can certainly bring our own veggie foods to feed the homeless. Nope. Our church elders, etc. said it's the principle of the thing. We members can't just go and volunteer anywhere that served unclean meat at any time. So, the kids and I do that on our own.

We just got a new building and the mortgage is almost $4000 a month, and not enough members to pay it, let alone utilities, etc. The church sent us a letter, no return address and signed, "your church building committee." It took a while to figure out which church. The letter basically said they're trying to get around new building codes.

We're just not getting spiritually fed here. Lots of politics and typical small-congregation stuff. I just needed to take a break from it and re-charge my spiritual batteries. I am a firm believer that if you wind up at a church and see stuff wrong, God put you there to fix it. Sometimes, I just don't feel like a homeschooling mom of three, full-time (soon to be graduate!) student, army wife of a deployed soldier has the energy. How do I go in, a greenhorn, and try to slowly but surely work on a close-knit, longtime-together congregation? I mentioned to one of the deacons that, even though I'm a brand-new Christian, I've always, always, always felt like Jesus is the ultimate social worker. He's hands-on, in the trenches. His purpose is salvation for the underdog, as well as the affluent. He ate with sinners and low-lifes. If He were corporeally here, he'd be hanging out with gays and hookers and all kinds.

The deacon told me I'm full of it and don't understand a thing.

What do I do??

[Woody]

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Mainly, it's a small, conservative congregation.... One of the elders called me a moron a few weeks ago for believing in evolution

That confirms it. You are most certainly in a conservative congregation. But while I don't believe in evolution ... I believe in you. And you are not a moron. Issues like evolution or clean and unclean meats or any spiritual issue should not get in the way of doing our Christian duty to serve our fellow man. And when our theology of clean and unclean meats gets in the way of helping the hungry ... there is something wrong.

I would ask you WHO is the MORON? The one who gets in and helps his community to reach out to others? OR The one who sits back all pious and says ... we can't help because there might be unclean meat served.?? We would rather have the community go hungry than to compromise with our beliefs of unclean meat. This makes me angry.

I've helped serve in community and church food kitchens. The important thing is to get in and serve their needs. When I helped in the community food kitchen ... I didn't try to force my beliefs on clean and unclean meats. That just stirs up my righteous anger. I'm sorry ... but it is THEY who are the Morons ... not you. Have I made myself clear?

[olger]

Vewy qwear..

[DrWhoCompanion]

Thanks, Redwood!

Certainly, I don't feel like a moron. Don't feel like it's a very Christian thing to even label someone as such.

I don't believe people who are physically starving give two shakes about the Gospel. And, at any rate, we are obliged by the Bible, again and again, to feed the starving and clothe the naked.

But, to get back on track, it is a stress to go to church with three young children and no "mother's room" with the lovely speakers and big one-way mirror. It has to be one-way. No one wants to peer in and see what's going on in there...

[Woody]

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I don't believe people who are physically starving give two shakes about the Gospel.

This may very well be true for most. But we as Christians are called to help them with no religious motives except to HELP. We should not require that we preach or teach them. This even goes for diet. We have no business trying to reach them about clean and unclean meats when they are starving.

IMHO ... We are called to HELP them without religious indoctrinations such as clean meats.

[olger]

"I don't believe people who are physically starving give two shakes about the Gospel."

Christ did...

oG

[Woody]

Yeah ... When Jesus fed the 5,000 did he pass out food tickets only to those who could document that they heard His sermon about clean and unclean meats?

[olger]

HUH?

[Woody]

Ah Huh.

[Neil D]

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The deacon told me I'm full of it and don't understand a thing.

What do I do??

Tell the elder that you are going where your spiritual batteries can get recharged and that you will no longer serve in a church that would rather see someone starve than give unclean foods, that preaching the gospel is laying a book on the steps and running away, and demands money for church politiking...

That should get his attention....

And you are right, Dr....The conservative church is hypocritical when it comes to real Christian principles. It will demand a real change in behavior and some of the people can not be bothered to help thier fellow man.....

I have no advise to give you...Only that you stay close to God...and let Him lead you as He may.....

Oh, and Olger, I hope that your responses were [/TIC]....I have seen enough posts from crazy morons here to actually know that some believe as you have posted....

[Dr. Shane]

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One of the elders called me a moron a few weeks ago for believing in evolution.

Discussions about origins can get vary heated. In the cases I have seen get out of hand, both parties on both sides are saying and acting unkind.

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Their idea of community outreach is buying Steps to Christ, leaving copies on people's doors, ringing the doorbell and running off.

Now are they really ringing doorbells and running off? Or are they just leaving the books on door steps? Literature evangelism is a great work although I think we need to shift to DVDs instead of books to better reach people.

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My idea for us volunteering at the local soup kitchen was pooh-pooed

My guess is because the people were too lazy to do it, not because it was a bad idea.

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We're just not getting spiritually fed here.

Plant a new church. Get a hold of your local conference and find out what you need to do.

[Neil D]

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One of the elders called me a moron a few weeks ago for believing in evolution.

Discussions about origins can get vary heated. In the cases I have seen get out of hand, both parties on both sides are saying and acting unkind.

[DrWhoCompanion]

Thank you Shane, Neil.

To clarify, this gentleman and I weren't even having a discussion about evolution. He started talking to my son, asking him what he learning in school, etc. Before I knew it, he was giving my son prompts about what to say to teachers about evolution. I came over and lightheartedly said, "Hey you guys! Are you having a conversation without me?" I tried to get off the subject. The guy kept on. I told him I didn't like meanness from either side of the equation and wanted to leave it at that. He kept asking why I was defending evolutionists. I said, "Can you believe God created everything and yet still believe in evolution?"

He went off on me, asked me point blank if I am an evolutionist. He said "Science has never proved anything!" I told him I an an evolutionist. At that point he called me a moron, and said he would tell anyone else to his face he's a moron for believing that uh... stuff.

I also got quite the lecture about how little I give them (I'm a homemaker, and hubby still tithes to his hometown church. We are raising three kids on about 30 grand a year. I'm in school full-time, also.)

We haven't been in a while. The last straw I think was last week. I got a phone call from a deaconess saying she saw me at Wal-Mart (okay, bad enough to admit to!) and I got out of a car with an Obama sticker. She lectured me via voicemail for a while on that!!

Okay... it's storming. See you guys later!!!

[Woody]

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I got out of a car with an Obama sticker. She lectured me via voicemail for a while on that!!

OK. Well ... Here is where you and I part paths. I would NEVER be seen getting out of a car with an Obama sticker. That is tacky. Why drive a Lexus if you are going to mess it up with a sticker. I can see why you got a lecture.

lol lol lol

[Neil D]

At that point he called me a moron, and said he would tell anyone else to his face he's a moron for believing that uh... stuff.

First, I would've told the man that he's a poor example as a Creationist...and a Christian....

....but that is just me....

....Oh, and I am planing to tick off Redwood with an Obama sticker on my lexus....I figure his McCain's sticker has reduce his wholesale car value by $1000.00......

[Woody]

Neil you o' swindler. You mean you been rippin off all those old people who can hardly take a breath just soin you can have a Lexus?

[Neil D]

I treat 'em so nice, they gave me the lexus...Eat yer heart out, Redwood....

[Dr. Shane]

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Absolutely useless...No human contact, no interaction....just drop it on the porch and run..

When I was in college I became very close friends with a janitor who was a member of our local church. Not having a father myself, he became a father figure and I named my son after him. I asked him how he became an Adventist. He told me the story of his mother finding a tract on her doorstep that someone had left there. After reading the tract she took him and his brothers and sisters to the local Adventist church. When the children became adults they became Adventists themselves and pillars of that same local church. By the time I arrived they were all nearing retirement. Their love and care brought me back into the church I had left as a teenager. All because someone left a tract on their mother's doorstep.

Don't ever underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit!

[Neil D]

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I asked him how he became an Adventist. He told me the story of his mother finding a tract on her doorstep that someone had left there. After reading the tract she took him and his brothers and sisters to the local Adventist church. When the children became adults they became Adventists themselves and pillars of that same local church. By the time I arrived they were all nearing retirement.

Don't ever underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit!

Ah yes...They "I know someone who became an adventist thru methods that now are ignored" response. Let's see, it would be the equivalent to your grandmother time or maybe even your great grandmother...That puts the timeline around 1940's...a time where reading material was a primary form of communication....But in the current era, who cares to have literature on the door step when you know it has an agenda behind it?

I am not denying the power of the Holy Spirit.... It's just that we seem to give our least effort to God...just so we can claim that we are making an effort. Shoddy work...that is what it is, Shane...And that is what these people are doing...wasting the Lord's money on useless efforts....Robbing God...

Not really a good idea....

[Woody]

How many of your saw the Billy Graham special last night on ABC during prime time? My wife and I were very impressed. Graham's son was dressed in casual clothing and was talking about the love of God and how that will bring Happiness to us.

It did not have a doctrinal agenda. If it had ... the audience would have been turned off. It was so refreshing. It was fast paced and told the story of conversion of a young man who found happiness in Jesus.

Inspiring. But what was interesting was that this program was not the method of Graham the father. He was good for HIS time ... but this was good for OUR time.

Granted ... the Holy Spirit can work under ANY circumstances ... but we are to be wise and us the most effective methods NOW.

[Dr. Shane]

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in the current era, who cares to have literature on the door step when you know it has an agenda behind it?

Not everyone here knows this (but I guess they will now) but last Fall I got picked up by a local newspaper to write a political commentary. Since then I have been learning quite a bit about the newspaper business. Despite the fact of the new media, internet, satellite TV and radio, people still read. Books are still selling as much as they ever did. While the large newspapers are losing circulation, smaller "niche" newspapers are starting up and becoming quite successful.

People read religious tracts. Even when they know the "agenda" behind them. (which is saving souls for the kingdom) Placing them on a door step may not be the most efficient place. Leaving them on benches at shopping malls, on tables in medical offices, in waiting rooms in government offices, on tables in laundry mats and other such places tend to be more effective.

If one is going to go door to door it is best to knock on the door, introduce themselves and leave the tract. Keep discussion to a minimum. Return two to four weeks later. Knock on the same door again. Greet the person and ask if they had a chance to read the tract, discuss it briefly and offer them another. This is most effective when done within a person's own neighborhood or the neighborhood where the church is located.

[fccool]

There's a time and place for any kind of outreach. The thing that I found discouraging is that many times the outreach is conducted as a marketing campaign. We send out the fliers and we generate the revenue. People come and go, and it's a lot about business and counting how many people a saved... and then determining how "successful" the efforts are. We don't talk much about people leaving and tend not leave that part out... and we get discouraged if new people do not come in.

I attended an outreach Prophesy seminar held by (now) out church. There were quite a few people in attendance... probably near a 100 or so. There was only one person who was baptized, and that person happened to be me. Some people considered the outreach to be unsuccessful, but I don't think so . The wider the net, the bigger and more of the fish you get.

But I do think that many churches today spend enormous amounts of money on literature, and it goes to waste because the leaders in the church refuse to learn the environment changing around them... especially the one of the younger generation that only "reads" the net, films and the magazines. Some of the older leaders that I spoke to have no clue what YOUTUBE is. Today's generation is abandoning Newspapers and TV and turning to interactive media outlets such as Blogs, Youtube and etc.

I don't think that we should take the marketing approach to Gospel, because it's not very personable. The reason the young people are turning to the interactive media is because they are loosing the touch with the world. There's less and less closeness between human beings today in developed countries. People go from a cubicle of the apartments to cubicle of their car, to cubicle at their work, and back. They starve for meaningful communication and expression. We should be thinking about this when sharing our faith with someone. Not that literature approach does not work at all and is not successful. It's just became one of those cultural cliches that seem to plague Christianity today... people doing things without understanding what they are doing.

I honestly think that in some cases God "protects" people from joining some churches as these would be detrimental to their would be "Christian experience" that would actually be damaging to spiritual growth of individual. But it's an out their speculation of mine

[Neil D]

I am not against evangelism....In fact, I would support it...but for the case where a lot of money is spent on places that return little reaction.

For example, the Oregon conference spent money on a 1/2 hour program explaining what our education system did. It was a neat well thought/well made program for adventist parents. After it was shown, they said that they were going to market it to the churches...and they opened the door for questions....Now, realize, that this was shown to the education section of our conference, where there were teachers and principals...and a few non-conference people were there, of which I was one...The accolades were coming in, and I raised my hand....

"One question", I asked. "Who is this made for?" "What do you mean?" was the response..."Well, most of the people in our church that I have talked to, know all of the things that you have presented. They know that adventist education works, and works well, and they know it costs some money. But, it looks like you are advertising for MORE children, and while we do have 90% of our church members kids in church school, you appear to be looking for a 20% or 30% increase JUST TO KEEP OUR SCHOOLS OPEN....Why are you not showing this film to the public? Why not reduce it down to 30 second spots or 1 minute spots adverstising? You would then be evangelizing the more affluent in our society, teaching thier children, and maybe getting them into our churches....But as for this film, gentlemen, you are preaching to the chior....Our church members know this already. "

As you can see, I am not the most popular person in the conference...

[Dr. Shane]

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We don't talk much about people leaving and tend not leave that part out... and we get discouraged if new people do not come in.

This is not the case for the church boards I have sat on.

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But I do think that many churches today spend enormous amounts of money on literature, and it goes to waste because the leaders in the church refuse to learn the environment changing around them..

Our church recently spent about $35,000 on an evangelistic campaign and I believe 12 baptisms resulted and about another eight at still doing Bible studies. I think the church leadership at the conference, union and division levels knows what it takes in our changing society. Some of the church members at the local level don't get it. The cost of reaching the public in North America, Australia, Japan and Europe is obviously going to be greater than in the developing world.

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Today's generation is abandoning Newspapers and TV and turning to interactive media outlets such as Blogs, Youtube and etc.

Daily newspaper reading is what has been on the decline since 1970 and per capita daily newspaper reading has been on the decline since 1945. So that is nothing new. However that is not to say Americans are reading less. Weekly newspapers are still doing well, although those too have been experiencing decline since 1990. That said, still over 60% of Americans read the newspaper at least once each week.

Television viewing is also on the decline much because of the internet. IPTV seems to have the promise of becoming a multi-media outlet which will allow consumers to watch TV, listen to the radio, read the newspaper and surf the internet all with the same device.

The Adventist church grasps all of this. We are "riding the train." 3ABN, Hope Channel, LLBN and SafeTV are all not only on satellite and internet buy also being carried by IPTV providers.

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The reason the young people are turning to the interactive media is because they are loosing the touch with the world. There's less and less closeness between human beings today in developed countries. People go from a cubicle of the apartments to cubicle of their car, to cubicle at their work, and back. They starve for meaningful communication and expression.

I think "inreach" deals better with this issue than "outreach". As director of the men's ministry group this is exactly what I am trying to do - form relationships between the men in the church.

[Dr. Shane]

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we do have 90% of our church members kids in church school

That is great! I have never belonged to an Adventist church any where that had close to 90% of their children in the Adventist school system. In fact, we have members with their kids attending non-Adventist, private schools.

Hope Channel does have 30 second ads promoting the Adventist school system. I am sure anyone wanting to use them could get them by contacting the Hope Channel. Promoting our schools to the public is a great idea but not a new one.