What if the Pope wanted to visit the GC

[Stan]

The GC often has Heads of State visit them.

What if the Pope wanted to? He is the Head of State for the world's smallest country.

That would drive some of the rumour mongers and conspiracy fans wild.

Should 'we' accept? Or reject? AND why?

[Lil Star]

As you said, he is a head of state. Should not matter how small or large the country is. I do not listen to rumors so I don't care how 'wild' that would drive them.

'We' should accept him because 'we' are Seventh Day Adventists with the only real faith and 'we' love won another and 'we' forgive him for not having the 'right' faith. Isn't that part of our love and forgiveness that everyone is preaching so much about these days?

[Naomi]

What would Jesus do?

[Tallmark]

There have been some popes in the past who have accepted Christ as their savior (they usually didn't live long after though). You never know who is going to be a disciple. If Madonna wanted to have lunch with me, it would be difficult for me to accept that one. "Not my will, but thine be done."

[Lil Star]

Quote:

If Madonna wanted to have lunch with me, it would be difficult for me to accept that one.

Why would that be difficult for you? If she did not have the word of God and you could share it, then why would you have a hard time with it? I agree with what was posted here WWJD?

[Kountzer]

The POpe and the RCC are wiley and wordly wise. They are also immensely popular and the world spotlight is on him and anything he draws attention to. The Pope is certainly not going to draw attention to the SDA Church by visiting the GC. If anything the Pope would crticize this church from a distance. He probably wouldn't do that, at least not directly, because to them this church is a little ant, or gadfly that is not worth paying attention to.

DB

[fccool]

What's the big deal about it? I view GC for what it is... a huge church board meeting. It is not really good or bad... just a way of doing things. It's neither promoted, nor disapproved of by the Bible. With that said, what's the difference if Pope visits the GC? Several adventist have exchanged handshakes with the pope. This guy even gave him a medal

And in this picture they actually exchange a masonic handshake.

It would be a huge deal if that guy represented me, but he does not. He may claim, but my belief is an individual belief, and he may choose to do whatever he wants to. That's the problem with denominationalism is that it is a group think exclusive mentality of all-or-nothing type of Christianity... i.e. Pharaseism... i.e. we should not eat with Gentiles. I think we should be above that.

Before anyone jumps on my case ... to be fair to mr. Beach, I don't have any reason to believe that he is a mason, and a medal he presented was a GC medallion he usually presented to leaders of other countries. Although to this day he is criticized for attending that conference summoned by the Pope. But that's exactly my point. You can turn the above stated into a big deal if you really wanted to. Pope is not the beast, the papal system is.

[John317]

For me, without question, I would say accept. But not if acceptance means we would address him as "holy father," or kiss his hand, etc. We should be polite and friendly, but we should not be afraid of speaking the truth to him, or be intimidated by his office and power.

I think he would be more impressed by people willing to speak forthrightly than he would be with those giving him medals, etc. Everyone tries to flatter him. Jesus didn't say things to flatter people. He told them the truth but always with love in his voice. We should do the same with the pope if he should visit us. I would talk first about the things we have in common as Christians, and the shared values, etc., but it would be a failed meeting if we didn't also discuss the differences.

[Guest truthseeker007]

If i were at the GC I would say. Dear Mr. Ratzinger, you are only human, just like me and every other guy. If you truly want to love God, you should find yourself another job, abolish the eucharist, replace the man-made system with a biblical system. Furthermore i would advise you to quit all of your occult activities with the freemasons and so on. IF you are willing to do all this, you can become a member of the true church of God.

Seventh Day adventism is not for sale!no worldy gospel!

[newSDA]

The question immediately comes to mind, why would the Pope want to visit the GC. Why is he visiting America right now? I think it's primarily to make a statement of power and allegiance. I'm quite young in the church so who's that Adventist leader shaking hands with the pope? I just don't feel that he would come with the aim of fellowshipping or anything like that. He already knows very well where our faith agrees and I believe he knows where we disagree in even finer detail. I don't know if he has committed the unpardonable sin or anything like that so I won't comment in that perspective but I just feel that every time he goes to see someone its because he wants to broker some kind of allegiance to himself. He doesn't go to the White House just for a birthday party! I just think everybody needs to share with me on this perspective because just the thought of him taking part in the GC or attending one of their meetings or something like that brings a chill down my spine! Shalom!

[John317]

Actually I agree with the main gist of your post. But I think the question was posed just in order to discuss what our attitude ought to be toward the pope if he were to have any intention of visiting the GC. Not that anyone in the church believes that he would, but should we welcome him if he were to put in an appearance there?

You're right about the pope's intention in coming to the US and the White House.

The Adventist leader in the picture you are referring to is BB Beach. See: http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/2008/04/bb-beach-wcc-easter-worship-1997.html

I personally believe it was a mistake for him to do what he did-- giving the pope a medal. But we have to understand that while the Catholic and papal system are the first power described in Rev. 13, individuals in that system may be perfectly sincere Christians, and hence they ought to be welcomed into our meetings to learn what we believe. That is my own personal belief.

[Amelia]

**GP**

Did you see the freakin' amount of money that was spent to pretty up all the places the pope went? I saw a news item on just the carpeting that was made brand new for him to walk on. OUTRAGEOUS! The only truely interesting part was that the carpet was made by a company run by the son of holocaust camp survivors.

[fccool]

Amelia,

You should check out how much money White house spends on some of their foreign visits. For example, for a week trip to China... Clinton spent over $20 mil . If that's not outrageous, I'm not sure what it .

I'm sure that Pope gets his fair share of perks too. I think that we should not get caught up criticizing individuals in the system. One of my catholic friends wrote me

"Watched the Pope on Sunday. It was very moving and inspirational and

I'm sure millions were blessed by this Godly, humble man."

It's kind of hard to get our message through to people who's hero is our foe. It's hard to kill your own children so to speak.

[Amelia]

Quote:

You should check out how much money White house spends on some of their foreign visits. For example, for a week trip to China... Clinton spent over $20 mil . If that's not outrageous, I'm not sure what it .

But how much did China spend on Stuff for the Clinton visit?

I'm sorry, but all that money for new carpets for the pope to walk on and a one time use at that. BLEH!

[Kountzer]

BB Beach, his job is to act as liason between this church and other churches. So he was within the framework of his work to greet the pope and give him a medal.

[Tom Wetmore]

You are correct.

This story does get blown way out of proportion. People wrongly assume that giving the pope a medal was an attempt to somehow honor him like giving him an Olympic medal. What was given was more of a memento or commemorative coin, which PARL gives out to a variety of people. There was no public ceremony and Dr. Beach was a part of an informal delegation of representatives of a variety of other denominations that briefly met with the pope. I have one of the medals that I asked for and got so I could see what it looked like. I don't have it with me at the moment but from memory, one side has a picture of the second coming and the other side the bible and ten commandments with the 4th highlighted. In short, it is a witness of the SDA Church and what it stands for. I believe Dr. Beach also gave him one of our books as well.

This sort of liaison work with leaders of other denominations is very much in harmony with recommendations of EGW. She says that our pastors should meet with the pastors of other denominations.

Tom

Tom

[John317]

You are correct.

This story does get blown way out of proportion. People wrongly assume that giving the pope a medal was an attempt to somwhow honor him like olympic medal. What was given was more of a memento or commemorative coin, which PARL gives out to a variety of people....

We should be kind and thoughtful and even loving toward the pope-- but "loving" means being truthful and honest with him. It does not mean flattering him or telling him smooth things or giving him a medal in order to show him "honor," or high respect or esteem. These actions have great significance and they are interpreted as such by the Vatican. They have great experience in diplomacy-- over 1500 years of it-- and they understand what these things point to. Words and actions have meaning.

You say we gave him the medal in order to "somehow honor" the pope.

Here is what "honor" means:

high respect, esteem, an exalted position, confer as a distinction, regard with great respect; fulfill an obligation, honor implies acknowledgment of a person's right to such respect;Homage is honor with praise or tributes added, and it connotes a more worshipful attitude;Reverence combines profound respect with love or devotion, while deference suggests courteous regard for a superior, often by yielding to the person's status or wishes. Obeisance is a show of honor or reverence by an act or gesture of submission or humility.

Which one of those define what we were attempting to show the pope when we gave him the medal? He no doubt took it to signify the church is joining those who do him and his office "homage," or acknowledge his right to such respect.

But the church which teaches that the papacy is the antichrist system, a great part of "Babylon," and responsible for millions of deaths, has no business giving "honor," or showing high respect, to the head of that false system, addressing him as "HOLY FATHER."

[John317]

BB Beach, his job is to act as liason between this church and other churches. So he was within the framework of his work to greet the pope and give him a medal.

Here is the medal given to the pope, and in another post I will give the official exchanges that took place between the SDA representative and the pope.

A GOLD MEDAL PRESENTED TO THE POPE (THE MAN OF SIN)

Beach presented the Pope with a conference-issued gold medal. The 8-11-77 Review said it was a “symbol of the Seventh-day Adventist church.” It was felt that it was of interest to meet with the man who is the religious leader of some 700 million people….[beach] gave him one of the medallions that…are given from time to time to statesmen.

You can see the medal on this link: http://www.calltorepent.com/beach-1977

There are several items on this gold medal which are designed to please the pope.

1. Christ is in a Catholic stance, like the Vatican painting by Francis de Assisi, and idols. His beard is forked.

2. This Christ has no crown on his head. The one in Revelation 19:12 does.

3. It appears that Jesus is standing on the summit of a mountain like Satan will when personating Christ. The true Christ will not touch the earth when he returns.

4. There is a cloud with nine lightning bolts extending from it, just as mystery religions and the medieval papacy used. It was a symbol of Satan in the mysteries.

5. There are eight angels. Eight is the symbol of the sun day.

6. The angels are shown facing toward and worshiping Christ, after he has arrived on earth. (They should be shown as facing the earth with Jesus as they come toward it.)

7. The Christ in Rev. 1:16 has seven stars in his hand. This Christ has six on each side.

8. The Maltese cross is a Vatican symbol. Typically, this has four equal rays flowing outward from a central sun. Each ray expands in width as it radiates outward and terminates in two horns, producing an eight-pointed cross. It is thus a sun symbol in two ways (the radiating sun, and the eight points.)

9. THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT READS THE SAME WAY THE PAPACY ATTEMPTED TO CHANGE IT–the way the third commandment is quoted in the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine. When the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath Commandment, what did they change it to? They used the exact wording given on the back of the gold medal.

[John317]

THE POPE’S GREETING: Under the title, “Seeking the Objectives of Complete Unity”, a Catholic newspaper reported this: “After the general audience of Wednesday, the 18th inst., the Holy Father received the participants of the Conference of Secretaries of World Confessional Families. The group was accompanied by Bishop John Howe, General Secretary of the Anglican Consultative Council, and Mr. B. B. Beach, General Secretary of the Seventh-day Adventists. This was the first time that representatives of the Seventh-day Adventists met the Pope. To commemorate this significant moment, they offered an artistic gold medal to the Holy Father.

The Holy Father directed the following discourse to them:

Dear brethren in Christ: We rejoice to be able to receive such an important group today, and we welcome you to Peter’s See.

In you we greet the representatives of a considerable portion of the Christian people, and through you we send our wishes of grace and peace in the Lord to your Confessional Families. [beach represented the whole church!]

We are happy to express, in your presence, our common faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God [the Christ in immaculate flesh], the only Mediator with the Father, the Saviour of the world. Yes, brethren, together with the Apostle Peter, we proclaim that Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12.

On her part, the Catholic Church is solemnly engaged, through Vatican Council II, in an ecumenism based on increased fidelity to Christ the Lord and on heart conversion. At the same time, she is conscious that nothing is more alien to ecumenism than that false irenicism [methods of securing unity among Christians or harmony and union among the churches; - called also Irenical theology] that would harm the Catholic doctrine and obscure its genuine and precise meaning.

Reinforced by the power of the word of God, let us therefore pursue, despite all difficulties, the objective of full unity in Christ and in the Church.

And, with humbleness and love, let us direct our thoughts and our hopes to our Lord Jesus Christ. Glory be given to Him, as well as to the Father and to the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever.” Osservatore Romano (Catholic paper, Portuguese edition), May 29, 1977.

[John317]

B.B. BEACH’S RESPONSE: Another Catholic newspaper reported this: The Confer-ence of Secretaries of World Confessional Families was organized twenty years ago, and its founder was the First Secretary of the Anglican Advisory Council, Bishop John Howe. The present Secretary of the Conference and at the same time the First Secretary of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Mr. Beach, made a statement at the Vatican Radio emphasizing the impor-tance of this first meeting of Adventists with the Pope. Word for word, this is what he said: “It was a great honor for me, as the Secretary of the Conference, to be present here in Rome, in audience with the Holy Father. On this occasion I presented to the Pope a book about the world-wide work of the Adventist Church.” Glas Koncila (Catholic paper in Yugoslavia), June 5, 1977.

B. B. Beach, a Seventh-day Adventist, representing the Seventh-day Adventist church, in an interview over Vatican radio used the term “Holy Father” in referring to the Pope, the representative of the beast of Rev. 13 and 14!

“It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the papacy.” Ellen White, Signs, Feb. 19, 1894.

[Woody]

What is your point here John317. Are you saying that the church I love is 'evil'? Why do you criticize the actions of our church. Do you no longer support the organization? Is our church now Babylon? Just what is your point?

[Taylor]

I don't see, in the handshake picture how anyone can tell where the pope's thumb is exactly and can judge whether it is a mason's handshake or not. I don't think that everything that every single person does is calculated to be done a certain way.

[Tom Wetmore]

John317,

You would do well to use sources uncluttered by an obvious bias to criticize and berate the Church. All the strange conjecture by your sources about its hidden meanings are rather simply off target.

You would also do well to read more carefully what I said before going off on a tangent of elaborating on the meaning of the word "honor." I did NOT say we gave it to him to somehow honor the pope. You obviously ignored my rather clear statement, which I got from the original source, Dr Beach himself, that this medallion was NOT to honor the pope. I clearly said that this is the wrong assumption of some people. It was simply a memento, a gift, given on the occasion of a meeting. This was not a medallion specially designed to be given to the pope, but one given to a wide variety of people as a remembrance of the SDA Church. It has more to do do with honoring the SDA Church that the giver represented than the one receiving it.

Tom

[Taylor]

In my opinion, John, any website that exists for pointing out the cooperate sins of the denomination, would not be a site I would not choose to frequent. The Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, not some website. It is far better to light a candle than curse any supposed darkness. I found it interesting that the creators of this website feel that they can call for the disfelowship of people. Below you will see what I am talking about. This is a direct quote from the article. (To be honest it sounds like something which would have been printed on the previous John Osborn's writings before he came back to the church or in the magazine "Our Firm Foundation")

CALL TO REPENTANCE: The giving of a gold-medal, a symbol of the SDA church, is a corporate sin. B.B.Beach represented the Seventh-day Adventist church. We call on both Br. Beach and the General Conference to publicly repudiate the 1977 gold medal gift to the Pope in the pages of the Adventist Review. If not, they should be disfellowshipped. They did not represent true Biblical Seventh-day Adventism.

[Neil D]

John, after reading all that stuff you posted, I have only one thing to say....

All that stuff you copied and pasted here strikes me as a legalistic mind unregenerated by grace....

Have a nice day, John....