What if the Pope wanted to visit the GC

[Amelia]

Some would say that the medal was getting our message across the hard way.

As for the hand shake? Can you say conspiracy theroist? Yeah, I knew you could. The Vatican also has a time machine in the basement they could sell him. Oh, but they don't sell their treasures do they?

[Woody]

Quote:

CALL TO REPENTANCE: The giving of a gold-medal, a symbol of the SDA church, is a corporate sin. B.B.Beach represented the Seventh-day Adventist church. We call on both Br. Beach and the General Conference to publicly repudiate the 1977 gold medal gift to the Pope in the pages of the Adventist Review. If not, they should be disfellowshipped. They did not represent true Biblical Seventh-day Adventism.

Thanks for posting this Taylor.

I just see all this controversy as the work of Satan. HE would seek to divide us. Our task is to Love one Another. If Jesus was walking this earth .... He would show love to the Pope. We are to do the same. For truly ... Love Won Another. It serves no purpose to hate. For Hate will not Win Another.

We in the SDA church have many differences in beliefs. WE are first and foremost Christians. We need to start acting like that. And accepting of our differences would be a good place to do that. We as Christians do not have to agree. One may worship on Saturday one on Sunday. One may eat meat and one may not. But we can come together without calling for disfellowship due to differences in understandings.

Tolerance Tolerance Tolerance.

[fccool]

Some would say that the medal was getting our message across the hard way.

As for the hand shake? Can you say conspiracy theroist? Yeah, I knew you could. The Vatican also has a time machine in the basement they could sell him. Oh, but they don't sell their treasures do they?

Actually, the handshake is Beach refusing to kiss Pope's hand which he gave him in a kissing position . So in the kissing position it stayed during the handshake.

[fccool]

*GP*

My refference to masonic handshake was to demonstrate a simple point... and the point is: you can make huge deal even out of such simple things like handshake.

The medallion was not minted specifically for Pope. It was GC medallion that was given to statesman from GC. Some of the points that John gave are actually complaints from Reform SDAs, which I think stretch things a bit... such as that 8 angels represent Sunday . Although I am very uncomfortable with paintings/engravings of Jesus of any kind.

[Woody]

You are right Cool ... You can find these extremist complaints readily on the web. There are both liberal and conservative extremists web sites out there. I take both extremes with a grain of salt because you have to have too much imagination to believe that stuff. I just don't find it productive. I will stick with the clear word of God which tells me to love one another. And the Pope is just a man.

[Taylor]

In my opinion, John, any website that exists for pointing out the cooperate sins of the denomination, would not be a site I would not choose to frequent.

Oops I meant to say: "In my opinion, Joh, any website that exists for pointing out the corporate sins of the denomination, would not be a site I would choose to frequent"

Sorry for the typos.

[David Koot]

every time he goes to see someone its because he wants to broker some kind of allegiance to himself. He doesn't go to the White House just for a birthday party!

Without a doubt. As for JPII, his goal was world domination for the papacy. Regarding the U.S. and the papacy, he had these words to say just before coming to the Capitol in 1984:

"Precisely because we are defenseless, we have a special right to influence those who wield the sword of authority. It is well known that in the field of political action, as elsewhere, not everything is accomplished by the sword. There are deeper reasons, and stronger laws to which nations and kings are accountable. We come before those in authority as spokesmen for the moral order."

That fits in very well with Rev. 13:11 ff.

Give the guy a medal? Yeah, right. As for Herr Ratzinger, do you think his purposes are different? He has been working Western Europe, seeking to bring Europe back to the fold, and realizing Adenauer's dream of a Christian Europe. Adenauer, after all, saw Germany in historic terms as the defender of Christendom, going back to the Middle Ages. He sought a holy alliance between the Catholic countries, Germany, France, Benelux, etc. That is Ratzinger's dream. And I believe it will happen. I see good reason to believe that the prophetic picture unfolded in the Great Controversy will come to pass under this pope.

Welcome this guy at the GC and pat him on the back? Would you welcome one who is dedicated to your destruction, who denies the validity of your Christian beliefs and experience, and who could well be the 'moral authority' which influences the U.S. government to order your death? I woudln't think so.

Dave

[Woody]

But Dave ... Although The Pope has declared that we Christians do not have salvation unless we go through HIM ... he still wants to be our friends. I think that is what the visit is saying. So, we as 'lost sinners' ... we should at least try to be kind to him. After all ... we ARE suppose to love our enemies.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

In my opinion, John, any website that exists for pointing out the cooperate sins of the denomination, would not be a site I would not choose to frequent.

Oops I meant to say: "In my opinion, Joh, any website that exists for pointing out the corporate sins of the denomination, would not be a site I would choose to frequent"

Sorry for the typos.

Was any of the information about the medal and what occurred in the meeting between the pope and BB Beach incorrect as far as you've been able to determine?

[John317]

But Dave ... Although The Pope has declared that we Christians do not have salvation unless we go through HIM ... he still wants to be our friends. I think that is what the visit is saying. So, we as 'lost sinners' ... we should at least try to be kind to him. After all ... we ARE suppose to love our enemies.

Should those who represent us as Seventh-day Adventists be referring to the bishop of Rome as "Holy Father"? Should they (we) be giving the bishop of Rome medals which portray the Ten Commandments in the truncated form in which they occur in the Catholic catechism?

Yes, we are to love our enemies. But that means real love, not the love that the world has, but the love that God has, which is based on truth and righteousness and not on flattery and deceit. That is not genuine love. It's not love that leads a Seventh-day Adventist to call the pope "Holy Father."

[John317]

You are right Cool ... You can find these extremist complaints readily on the web. There are both liberal and conservative extremists web sites out there. I take both extremes with a grain of salt because you have to have too much imagination to believe that stuff. I just don't find it productive. I will stick with the clear word of God which tells me to love one another. And the Pope is just a man.

What did you find inaccurate in either the depiction of the medal or in the record of what was said by both the pope and B.B. Beach, which I posted?

[John317]

John, after reading all that stuff you posted, I have only one thing to say....

All that stuff you copied and pasted here strikes me as a legalistic mind unregenerated by grace....

Have a nice day, John....

What was inaccurate in the depiction of the medal or in the record of what was said between the pope and B.B. Beach?

[John317]

J... It was simply a memento, a gift, given on the occasion of a meeting. This was not a medallion specially designed to be given to the pope, but one given to a wide variety of people as a remembrance of the SDA Church. It has more to do do with honoring the SDA Church that the giver represented than the one receiving it. Tom

Did B.B. Beach give the pope a medal depicting the Ten Commandments in the truncated form in which it occurs in the Catholic catechism? Did B.B. Beach call the pope "Holy Father"?

It's unreasonable to think that the the vatican interpreted B.B. Beach's visit and the giving of a medal as honoring the SDA church. If you look carefully at the medal, it is not one that has anything to do with Seventh-day Adventism. The Ten Commandments are never written in that form by SDAs unless they are showing how the fourth commandment is written in the Catholic catechism. It just happens that the way Jesus is portrayed on the medal is a typically catholic stance. These and other things on the medal are not coincidental.

I'd like to know what other people this same medal was given to prior to its being given to the pope. Do you know?

[Taylor]

When people jump to conclusions about WHY things are done they way they are, and try to pick apart every single picture or detail of something and try to ascribe meaning to it, sure they can find something to complain about.

1. One can make a complete communist out of a democratic president too, if one chopps up what they have said and glue it back together.

2. An artist may draw a picture with a group of angels, never thinking, for instance that it is "wrong" to have 4 verses 8 versus 12 angels, not because it has some deep meaning.

3. The mere source of your many points is a source which is highly critical of the church and God is not the accuser of the brethern .

Just my 2 cents.

[Taylor]

John's Comment: If you look carefully at the medal, it is not one that has anything to do with Seventh-day Adventism. The Ten Commandments are never written in that form by SDAs unless they are showing how the fourth commandment is written in the Catholic catechism.

Taylor's Comments: How, are they supposed to get the ENTIRE 10 commandments, or even the 4th on such a small medal? Not only does the medal remind people of the Sabbath that God is the creator

John's Comment: It just happens that the way Jesus is portrayed on the medal is a typically catholic stance. These and other things on the medal are not coincidental.

Taylor's Comments: With all due respect you can't judge whether it is coicidental or not. You have not met the person who designed it, or walked in their shoes. You have no idea if it is "purposful" or "coincidental". There are many many artists renditions of Jesus, some are more beautiful than others, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what is beautiful to you may not be to another person.

My point simply is this, when one can't read the mind of another it is impossible to judge the motives of their heart. It is a job left up to God.

Instead of focusing on what is "wrong" with our church we should be out spending our entire energies telling others about Jesus and preparing to meet God. Let God do the judging. If it the motivation of the GC is a cynical as you seem to think, God will judge it accordingly. However, I also know that we have been counseled at the Adventist church will "make it through to the other shore" and will appear to fall but will not fall. Hence I choose to not focus on any "trembelings" in my church, if they are "tremblings" I choose to focus on Jesus and the salvation of souls as in the end that will be all that matters.

[Tom Wetmore]

...What was inaccurate in the depiction of the medal or in the record of what was said between the pope and B.B. Beach?

...I'd like to know what other people this same medal was given to prior to its being given to the pope. Do you know?

I am traveling right now, but will be happy to take the time to itemize those distortions when I return to my office and take out the medal I have and the official PARL response to all this rumor-mongering about Dr. Beach and the medallion given to the pope.

As to who else was given one, I can only guess why you think that would be somehow significant in the grand conspiracy theory that you are helping to perpetuate by cutting and pasting from those anti-SDA Church websites. But given the nature of the medallion, I seriously doubt any record is kept of who is given one. The fact that a PARL office assistant was free to give me one without clearing it with anyone should tell you how significant an "honor" it is supposed to be. It is a nice give-away item.

Tom

[lazarus]

I remember a Conference President telling me about a discussion that was had in the GC about whether to lower the flag after the death of John Paul. One wing of the church would interpret the lowering of the flag as a sign of allegiance/sympathy to the papacy. If the flag was not lowered the community would see it as a sign of disrespect for Catholics and a lack of compassion for those Catholics who are grieving. He told me that they decided to take it down altogether. I don't know how accurate the story is. I really don't have a lot of patience for this "nit picking". There are other more pressing challenges that face our church.

It does not diminish the witness of the SDA church by lowering a flag or giving a medal. I have met Mr Beech and heard his explanation while I was in seminary. He stuck me as a man of God who is passionate about reaching out to other denominations, making friends and thereby increasing the influence of the SDA church. Its really that simple.

Just scanning through the various items on the website calltorepent.com I'm amazed at those things the authors would draw attention to as examples of corporate sins of the church. I'm expecting to see a page exposing the Jesuits in the GC. Its pathetic and misguided stuff in my humble opinion.

[Neil D]

What was inaccurate in the depiction of the medal or in the record of what was said between the pope and B.B. Beach?

[Naomi]

It does not diminish the witness of the SDA church by lowering a flag or giving a medal. I have met Mr Beech and heard his explanation while I was in seminary. He stuck me as a man of God who is passionate about reaching out to other denominations, making friends and thereby increasing the influence of the SDA church. Its really that simple.

Just scanning through the various items on the website calltorepent.com I'm amazed at those things the authors would draw attention to as examples of corporate sins of the church. I'm expecting to see a page exposing the Jesuits in the GC. Its pathetic and misguided stuff in my humble opinion.

Cound not agree more!

[John317]

Do you see anything objectionable in a church representative meeting the pope and calling him "Holy Father"?

Is this an accurate report?--

"The present Secretary of the Conference and at the same time the First Secretary of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Mr. Beach, made a statement at the Vatican Radio emphasizing the impor-tance of this first meeting of Adventists with the Pope. Word for word, this is what he said: 'It was a great honor for me, as the Secretary of the Conference, to be present here in Rome, in audience with the Holy Father. On this occasion I presented to the Pope a book about the world-wide work of the Adventist Church.' Glas Koncila (Catholic paper in Yugoslavia), June 5, 1977."

[David Koot]

Although The Pope has declared that we Christians do not have salvation unless we go through HIM ... he still wants to be our friends. I think that is what the visit is saying.

JPII reached out to Protestant groups as an effort to bring them into the fold--recognizing the supremacy of the pope. Ratzinger has the same goal. They are acting in accord with the Marian visions which occurred in Fatima, Portugal. If that step fails, then the next step will be force--compel the return to the Catholic fold. The authority of the U.S. government will be invoked to accomplish that.

Dave

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...What was inaccurate in the depiction of the medal or in the record of what was said between the pope and B.B. Beach?

...I'd like to know what other people this same medal was given to prior to its being given to the pope. Do you know?

I am traveling right now, but will be happy to take the time to itemize those distortions when I return to my office and take out the medal I have and the official PARL response to all this rumor-mongering about Dr. Beach and the medallion given to the pope.

As to who else was given one, I can only guess why you think that would be somehow significant in the grand conspiracy theory that you are helping to perpetuate by cutting and pasting from those anti-SDA Church websites. But given the nature of the medallion, I seriously doubt any record is kept of who is given one. The fact that a PARL office assistant was free to give me one without clearing it with anyone should tell you how significant an "honor" it is supposed to be. It is a nice give-away item.

Tom

I never referred to or suggested that there is some kind of conspiracy on the part of Adventists. I just believe that some leaders and members of our church do not realize the significance of their approach to the pope, and perhaps do not realize the intentions of the Vatican in doing what it does. And this despite the fact that the Vatican tells the whole world that it wants people and churches to return to the "mother church." It makes it difficult if not impossible for the SDA church to give the Three Angels Messages fully as God raised our church up to do, when we give the appearance that Babylon is not fallen or terribly wrong.

In your thinking, should our leaders and representatives be calling the pope "Holy Father"? Is that how you refer to the pope? If he did come to the GC, for a meeting, should we be welcoming him as "the Holy Father"?

What about the medal do you see as particularly symbolic Adventists?

[David Koot]

Incidentally, I am no 'conspiracy theorist.' I would not need to be, even if such was an interest. There is too much solid evidence out there to need to resort to such theories. The papacy's goal of world domination is well-known. The ultimate result of those efforts is well known to students of Scripture, as well as to students of history. It happened before, and the Inquisition was the result. It will happen again.

By the way, you certainly don't see the pope or his representatives giving a medal to Protestant church leaders. The pope considers them to be heretics. Once again, he is currently making an effort to bring them back to the Catholic fold by entreaty, voluntarily. If that fails, then the Church will once again resort to force.

In that day, the answer to Stalin's question will be clear:

"How many divisions does the pope have?"

The pope will have at his disposal many divisions--the U.S. Armed Forces, NATO, and others.

This is not the time to strike a medal in honor of this persecuting power, or to receive him. I believe Jesus gave instructions to his disciples about such a thing in Matthew 10 or so.

Dave

[David Koot]

At the same time, looking at the medal, I see the Ten Commandments on one side, with the Sabbath as the FOURTH commandment (not the Catholic/Lutheran version), and the first sentence of the Fourth Commandment as it appears in the King James Bible (no room for more on the medal.) The Bible is depicted--thus showing the supremacy of the Bible over church tradition. The words, 'Christ Our Righteousness' certainly do NOT go along with Catholic teaching on penance and indulgences. On the other side is a depiction of Christ's second coming, Rev. 1:7 quoted. Doesn't look to me like Christ is standing on a mountain. He is standing on clouds. The bottom of the medal has a space for Rev. 1:7. As for stars . . . this is the second coming, not the seven churches vision. Jesus' pose is indeed medieval, but I see nothing wrong with that. As for the absence of a crown, I just don't see some dark significance to that. The Catholic church certainly acknowledges that Christ will wear a crown. Looks to me like the medal is a witnessing tool. It certainly does NOT appear to be in harmony with the Catholic church's teaching! Sabbath, Bible, Second Advent. I am not saying that I would have honored the papacy with a medal, but at the same time I don't see this medallion as honoring the papacy. Quite the opposite. Looks like Bert Beach may have had a similar agenda to JPII in a sense--bring him back to the fold--to the Adventist church.

Dave

[Woody]

Quote:

Instead of focusing on what is "wrong" with our church we should be out spending our entire energies telling others about Jesus and preparing to meet God. Let God do the judging. If it the motivation of the GC is a cynical as you seem to think, God will judge it accordingly. However, I also know that we have been counseled at the Adventist church will "make it through to the other shore" and will appear to fall but will not fall. Hence I choose to not focus on any "trembelings" in my church, if they are "tremblings" I choose to focus on Jesus and the salvation of souls as in the end that will be all that matters.

Thank you for saying this Taylor. Well said. Personally .... I just get tired of our 'church bashing' by so many extremists in our church. Like you say .... it is best to 'think' the best and not be overly judgmental.