What if the Pope wanted to visit the GC

[John317]

Quote:

I did not, of course, post the link to the website in order to suggest that I believe everything on that website.

I can relate to what you are saying here John317.

I get accused of needing to believe ALL of Ellen White when I quote her. Just because I quote some of her does not mean that I have to agree with ALL of her. So, the same with the link you posted .... just because you posted some of the source does not mean that you have to agree with ALL of that source.

Good Point. I am glad to have company with this belief.

That is an entirely different situation. What I am referring to is reading quoting an article in a paper or source without necessarily agreeing with everything in the entire paper or book. The Bible and Ellen White are different matters, and you know this perfectly well. It is intellectually dishonest to compare websites with Ellen White in the manner that you have done here, Redwood.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is intellectually dishonest to compare websites with Ellen White in the manner that you have done here, Redwood.

What ever you say John. I guess you must be the judge of 'dishonesty'. You must be in a superior level of knowledge to know such things. Therefore I submit to your attack on me. I must be lacking in both intelligence and honesty.

However .... per the rules of this forum. I would ask that if you desire to attack me further ... that you do it in a PM. Thank you John. I really don't feel that my intelligence nor my honesty needs to be a public matter of discussion here.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

I did not, of course, post the link to the website in order to suggest that I believe everything on that website.

I can relate to what you are saying here John317.

I get accused of needing to believe ALL of Ellen White when I quote her. Just because I quote some of her does not mean that I have to agree with ALL of her. So, the same with the link you posted .... just because you posted some of the source does not mean that you have to agree with ALL of that source.

Good Point. I am glad to have company with this belief.

That is an entirely different situation. What I am referring to is reading quoting an article in a paper or source without necessarily agreeing with everything in the entire paper or book. The Bible and Ellen White are different matters, and you know this perfectly well. It is intellectually dishonest to compare websites with Ellen White in the manner that you have done here, Redwood.

I just have to smile. I can not read either John's or Redwood's minds. However, I found Redwoods comment to be very tongue in cheek, not in comparing the two. He was just saying that he also can take some things and leave some things in EGW's writings just like you take some things and leave others on this website. Of course the writings of EGW aren't comprable with this website. The point was that he doesn't take everything she says any more than you take everything the website says. (Now my stance on EGW nor this website have been discussed here, so let's not go there, but briefly, for the record, I do believe firmly in EGW and I firmly see this website as being the type of website I would never want to frequent. We need to focus on Jesus, not on each other's or the church's supposed, or real, or imagined sins.)

[Naomi]

We need to focus on Jesus, not on each other's or the church's supposed, or real, or imagined sins.)

Thank you for making this very valid and serious observation.

[Tom Wetmore]

Was any of the information about the medal and what occurred in the meeting between the pope and BB Beach incorrect as far as you've been able to determine?

John,

In answering your question that you repeated several times I would first emphasize that the most significant error of the source you referenced here is the way in which they interpret details, the symbolism they attribute to certain features of the medallion and conclusions they draw from even the most incidental and innocuous aspects of the whole story. In terms of accuracy and truth very little is correct. But there are some very clear factual errors simply about the medallion itself that I would like to point out that significantly undermine the credibility of your source of all this misinformation.

• The stars - the sketch of the medallion and their description say there are six on each side - the medallion actually has 23 stars, 9 on one side of Jesus, ten on the other and 4 on the cloud at Jesus feet.(Even with their mistaken number of a total of 12 stars their negative spin agenda misses the Biblical symbolism of the number 12...)
• They describe 9 lightning bolts coming out of the cloud - they are rays of light from the cloud since they are straight lines.
• The "mountain" on which Jesus is standing - The outer straight lines interpreted as edges of a mountain are more likely the outer edges of the spreading beams of light coming from the cloud of glory as they are parallel to the 9 clearly defined light rays.
• The Maltese Cross - Actually it more closely resembles a Cross patee since it does not have the sharp indentations at the end of the 4 main branches that are distinctive of a Maltese Cross. It is simply a variant of the Christian symbol of the cross.

Regarding your other question about who else has received this medallion, I think one implication of your question apparently was the suggestion that this medallion was minted especially for this visit with the pope. The copyright date on the medallion is 1973, 4 years before the meeting with the pope.

And regarding your repeated question about referring to the pope as the "Holy Father", I will see if Dr. Beach can shed some light on that next time I see him. (He still comes to the GC periodically and we go to the same church.) But I vaguely recall something about this from prior discussions that the quote was an English translation of the comment that Dr. Beach made in Italian, I believe. (Dr. Beach speaks about 5 languages) As I recall, the term for "pope" in Italian, "Papa", means "father" just as the the Latin origin of the English word pope. A Catholic Italian translator would just as likely translate it as "Holy Father" as "The Pope".

Tom

[delta]

"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot~! Rev.3:15

When we're still in this peaceful time and without persecution yet, it should be the best decision for the official General Conference of SDA for not giving any [honoring] medal to Pope.

In case the GC decided not to give a medal to the "holy father", would that be troubling us?

Sooner or later, the storm and persecution shall come anyway...whether or not our SDA leaders in GC ever gave the honoring medal(s) to Pope.

But as for today, with or without any medal from GC, you can 100% guarantee that the Pope must keep saying,

"Peace...peace...peace"

Unfortunately, giving the medal to Pope is something like a certification or a licence for elimination to any Bible study related to the mark of the beast.

Yes, we can almost guarantee that right now--first of all in the GC office--it is illegal to study the Daniel and Revelation prophecy especially Revelation 13 and the mark of the beast in the name of "don't be fanatic" or "stop being extremist"

But the bad new is, some of our leaders and members have an immediate conclusion that by not giving medal to pope is equal to sarcastic, rude and not polite!

Last time GC gave the medal but next month or so GC would have a Daniel and Revelation Seminar? Oh, C'mon...what a double face! Do you think the GC will sponsor any Prophecy seminar after giving a medal to the top of the movie star in the Prophecy seminar?

Or by the way, please, at least just go to La Sierra University, Pacific Union College, Loma Linda or some others of our Univ./colleges...Do you still NOT believe that they're not denying their religion but at the same time it's really illegal for those schools to proclaim the Three Angels' Messages, especially about the beast power in the name of "love your enemies", "don't be so extreme, please" or "take it easy" ???

Let's focus on Jesus and His love.

But this means that we must keep silent about the Present Truth,

or

Rebuking them with honor, respect and love.

The choice is yours.

Though your friends or even your pastor attack you as "Fanatics" or "Extremists"... again, let's focus on Jesus who warns us:

"I could wish you were cold or hot!"

Since He already said about this(cold/hot/lukewarm), so if He were lives today, do you think that the same Jesus would agree when the Pope was given a medal by His Church's leaders?

What do you think?

It's up to you to attack or accused anybody here or even Jesus Himself as a "Fanatic" or "Extremist" but let's see what's in your hearts about the Rev 3:15.

[olger]

What do I think? I think I will send a large donation to Amazing Facts.

(done)

[John317]

Quote:

It is intellectually dishonest to compare websites with Ellen White in the manner that you have done here, Redwood.

What ever you say John. I guess you must be the judge of 'dishonesty'. You must be in a superior level of knowledge to know such things. Therefore I submit to your attack on me. I must be lacking in both intelligence and honesty.

However .... per the rules of this forum. I would ask that if you desire to attack me further ... that you do it in a PM. Thank you John. I really don't feel that my intelligence nor my honesty needs to be a public matter of discussion here.

A refutation of an argument is not a personal attack. I said that such a comparison as was made is invalid because it is like comparing apples and oranges. I am dealing with the argument, which would be the same no matter who makes it.

[John317]

... He was just saying that he also can take some things and leave some things in EGW's writings just like you take some things and leave others on this website. Of course the writings of EGW aren't comprable with this website. The point was that he doesn't take everything she says any more than you take everything the website says...

Yes, I thought it was obvious he was saying this, but to what purpose? Perhaps this was simply his way of restating what he has stated already many times before.

I don't know of anyone who necessarily agrees with everything on any website, so to make a comparison between our treatment of a website and our treatment of Ellen White seems to me to be not terribly relevant to anything.

[Neil D]

"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot~! Rev.3:15

When we're still in this peaceful time and without persecution yet, it should be the best decision for the official General Conference of SDA for not giving any [honoring] medal to Pope.

In case the GC decided not to give a medal to the "holy father", would that be troubling us?

[Taylor]

The Church is a hospital for Sinners not a Country Club for Saints.

There will ALWAYS be problems in our church. But to make blanket statements about it being illegal to study Daniel and Revelation at the GC is rediculous. In no way has that ever been true, nor is it true currently.

I know many people personally who work at the GC and they are deeply Bible believing and evangelism focused. There is a lot of misinformion and gossip about our church leaders and some don't see or don't know about the passion with which the church leaders I know love the truth and they love to tell others about it. Are they all in their spiritual walk where they should be? I would not want to judge that but I know that since all of us have growing to do that no one person has "arrived". If there are tares (weeds) in our church it will become obvious when Jesus comes back for his harvest. In the mean time we need to be preparing as many as possible for the harvest, not yanking up weeds, thus damanaging the young plants around those weeds.

However, I do agree that the pope is going to do what he is going to do no matter whether we give him a gift or not.

There are problems in our SDA schools but there is an incredible lot of good going on in our SDA schools, that is true in some cases more than others but I think it helps us to focus on what is good, not on what is bad. Further, if we help to inspire, provide opportunities for young people to get to know Jesus and the truths in the Bible. If we help them have opportunities to share this message with others, then we can encourage spiritual growth at our schools and in our churches. It is far easier to attract bees to honey than with vinegar. Time should be spent modeling and inspiring what is right.

[delta]

Hi Neil D,

Relax, calm down and don't get mad at me.

Otherwise your posting here would probably reflecting 98.5% of liberal Adventists that always focusing on grace and love (nothing wrong with this) and keep trying to embrace and have open dialogue with other faith such as Buddhist, Moslem, Catholic, Hindu, etc (which is also very very good for real)...

...But at the same time those 98.5% liberal Adventist most of the time never show their love nor try to embrace the conservative Adventists and have an open dialogue with their conservative brethren as they always do with the other faith.

That's why it's not too much surprise when a non-Christian magazine made their conclusion and opinion about Adventists by declaring that, "Liberal Adventists has a special doctrine: love your enemies by always expressing bitter hatred toward conservative Adventists."

I'm just hoping that they are wrong on their conclusion!

[Neil D]

Hi Neil D,

Relax, calm down and don't get mad at me.

[Stan]

Originally Posted By: delta

Hi Neil D,

Relax, calm down and don't get mad at me.

Gee, if I came accross mad, I wonder how I come across when I am really mad...

You might come across like a grown up BAT-BOY

[delta]

Since the Church is a hospital for Sinners not a Country Club for Saints, that's why we need to give a continuous Bible study to everybody... including to the Pope. When we have time to give medal to Pope (this should be arranged by an appointment, of course), then, is it impossible to give him a Bible Study?

Oh by the way, if you get a bad new from TV or Newspaper, don't get mad or blame your TV or the Newspaper. Just focus on what's on the news and the information given.

And now speaking of their rejection of the Three Angels' Messages, I just signaling the facts but you can wisely check by yourself directly to the GC office or at least gain some infos to our certain Univ/colleges especially here in North America or in W.Europe.

Special arrangement or future plan by lay members or students for Daniel and Revelation seminars usually being refused by the official Board Members-believe it or not.

You probably still don't believe the facts of what's happening even in our Church's top leaders but let's do this way: Do you still remember what was the official logo of the SDA? Yes. The logo was a simple picture of the Three Angels.

But what's the official logo today? Have you ever find an official written statement of why the GC change it? Why/what do think?

After all, let's all keep working on our faith no matter how bad our church could be. I believe Jesus Christ still as a captain of His ship. Just don't jump to the sea or move to other ships.

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist not because I am better that others, but because the Lord has given me a special message to every nation, kindred, tongue and people just before the close of probation.

Let's do it with a loud voice. Not by compromising--if you want!

[Taylor]

I have never believed in compromise. In my personal opinion, no, my personal conviction, we have nothing to be ashamed of. This 3 angel's message and the doctrines that our church has come to believe from the Bible are solid and meaningful.

I just know that there are some incredible leaders in our colleges and yes even GC building. I know of thousands of evangelistic cammpaigns that loudly proclaim the 3 angel's messages which are coordinated both by the GC (yes by the GC), ASI, Amazing Facts (which by the way the evangelists are paid by the california conference) and various other conferences (and I could name them) which directly sponsor, coordinate, and hold many prophecy/doctrinal/relevant evangelistic series a year. I know of many thousands of lay run evangelistic series, even here in North America. I know of one conference alone that had 700 campaigns (both big and small, both in churches and in people's homes) in the last couple of years. (and no that isn't hear-say...it is confirmed first hand known fact). No they aren't the "Daniel and Revelation Seminars" with notebooks that we used to have but the content, the message, is the same. It is just more "old fashioned evangelism" preaching evagngelism than what we did in seminars with notebooks. And the evangelism is working. People are coming to know Jesus as their forever friend and are accepting the end time message for their lives.

I also, am a Seventh-day Adventist because of deep conviction, not because of what the leadership does or does not do. But I personally know leaders that I am very thankful exist and I know members and pastors who are on-fire for Jesus. I know of conferences who's entire goal in life is to reach others with the gospel...not to entertain themselves to death, but to truely reach others with the incredible unique message that God has given this church. This makes me excited. Yes, there are problems, but there are so many blessings and so much to be thankful for.

[Tom Wetmore]

...B. B. Beach, a Seventh-day Adventist, representing the Seventh-day Adventist church, in an interview over Vatican radio used the term “Holy Father” in referring to the Pope, the representative of the beast of Rev. 13 and 14!...

Yesterday I spoke to Dr. Beach about meeting the pope and the circumstances and events surrounding it. I asked him specifically about the above reference and he quite emphatically said he did not refer to or address the pope as "Holy Father".

Similar to that misquote, others continue to circulate the misinformation that he kissed the pope's ring, which is of course also untrue. Dr. Beach said it was quite significant that he greeted the pope simply with a handshake just as is customary for any ordinary man greeting another man.

As for the medallion, on similar equal terms of greeting, the pope likewise gave Dr. Beach a papal commemorative medallion customarily given to guests at such an audience with the pope. As Dr. Beach pointed out to me, if his giving the medallion to the pope is to be interpreted as a "wandering after the beast" than the pope must have been "wandering after" Dr. Beach and the Seventh-day Adventist Church that he was representing!

Tom

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: John317

...B. B. Beach, a Seventh-day Adventist, representing the Seventh-day Adventist church, in an interview over Vatican radio used the term “Holy Father” in referring to the Pope, the representative of the beast of Rev. 13 and 14!...

Yesterday I spoke to Dr. Beach about meeting the pope and the circumstances and events surrounding it. I asked him specifically about the above reference and he quite emphatically said he did not refer to or address the pope as "Holy Father".

Similar to that misquote, others continue to circulate the misinformation that he kissed the pope's ring, which is of course also untrue. Dr. Beach said it was quite significant that he greeted the pope simply with a handshake just as is customary for any ordinary man greeting another man.

As for the medallion, on similar equal terms of greeting, the pope likewise gave Dr. Beach a papal commemorative medallion customarily given to guests at such an audience with the pope. As Dr. Beach pointed out to me, if his giving the medallion to the pope is to be interpreted as a "wandering after the beast" than the pope must have been "wandering after" Dr. Beach and the Seventh-day Adventist Church that he was representing!

Tom

ROFL that last statement is simply too funny Tom!

This post exactly points out what I have always had a problem with websites or people or organizations or magazines that are critical of the SDA church. (And that can also be from secular sources.) Things are taken out of context, down right un-truths are spoken and then it becomes a huge issue for people to read or hear and believe as truth.

I don't think anyone on this website has tried to speak an untruth about this situation, they have simply taken what was printed or reported as the truth. That is why we must be slow to judge because since we weren't there we can't be sure what actually happened, and since we aren't Dr. Beach we can't be positive what his motiviations and thoughts were at the moment unless he were to tell us. I am grateful you had the opportunity to talk to Dr. Beach and get the true story on what happened. I think this should clear things up for many.

[Neil D]

Yesterday I spoke to Dr. Beach about meeting the pope and the circumstances and events surrounding it. I asked him specifically about the above reference and he quite emphatically said he did not refer to or address the pope as "Holy Father".

[snipped for brevity]

Tom

It figures... Some 'righteous idiot' wants to make mountains out of mole hills ah-gain...And we got a bunch of other 'small minded idiots' followers who want to believe in some conspiracy theorys who want to spread thier small mindedness around...

Lord, isn't there anything You can do with these vermin? They give Your church a bad name, promote paranoia and general distrust! Can't you just wire thier mouths shut? Or better yet, strike them mute?

I am sorry, Lord...I am a part of them....I can't control them, but I can control myself. And I will not say more about this....but Lord, the passion that I feel is enough to cause a stroke in me....Forgive my anger....Forgive my people....

Amen....

[organED]

Quote:

But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants. Look at the growth of ritualism in England and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel.

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty.

Great Controversy, pp. 563-566

LOL Attendence at Catholic Churches and Cathedrals is at an all-time low, Europe is a very secular society, hardly anyone goes to church there anymore. Here in America - and all around the Western world, the Catholic church has a huge shortage of seminarians and ordained priests, and it is getting worse. Attendence at Catholic Universities and schools continues a steep decline. Yeah, they are certainly gaining in power. Meanwhile, the US continues to become more and more secular - which is great by me! BTW, the US has never been, nor will it ever be, a 'Christian' nation. It was established as a completely secular nation, always has been, no matter what revisionists try to imply otherwise.

[Guest truthseeker007]

In times of global crisis Maitreya will declare the world that the problems are caused by the Godless society. This will enforce political powers to restore religion. Demons will especially inform the political leaders with the keeping holy of sunday. Don t think that because the Catholic Church nowadays loses power and the US is becoming more secular, that this means the predictions of Ellen White will not come to pass...