Ellen White a false prophet?!?!

[LifeHiscost]

In the case of Ellen White, I think we can dismiss her belief that she was a prophet, take from her what demonstrates itself to be valuable, and dismiss what is simply wrong.

One thing about repeating that which is not true, even if we at first doubted the lie, repeated often enough to ourselves it will become part of our viewpoint. This was evident in the life of Lucifer. It began with the entertaining of the thought that God (the Creator of all things for the benefit of His creation)) was not Love. In due time the doubts of His character became a possibility in the minds of those inclined to distrust, then a probability, and at last a settled conclusion in the minds of those who wished to shed all personal responsibility to their Creator.

In the Word it's part of the mystery of iniquity, a state of mind which when accepted, eclipses the mystery of Godliness in those so inclined.

Despite that affront to the Creator of mankind, He returns love to them until there is no hope of them ever willingly accepting of His free grace. No man knows when that time will be. However we do know that time will come, and appears ready to come much more rapidly than many might accept.

For those who have allowed His rightful place in their lives they will pass eternity beyond any bliss that might be described now in this age. For others, the trip will be over.

"The bed is too short to stretch out on,

the blanket too narrow to wrap around you.

The LORD will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim,

he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon—

to do his work, his strange work,

and perform his task, his alien task.

Now stop your mocking,

or your chains will become heavier;

the Lord, the LORD Almighty, has told me

of the destruction decreed against the whole land."

May the Lord have mercy on our souls.

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

There are any number of people who have built hospitals and large charitable organizations that aren't Divine messengers nor do they claim that God guided them.

I'm just wondering who you might know who is, to a great degree, responsible for 240 medical and educational systems in over 200 countries around the world including universities, colleges, secondary educational facilities and a large number of major hospitals, God guided or not, for the most part without funding from any government sources.

Regards!!

[cardw]

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I'm just wondering who you might know who is, to a great degree, responsible for 240 medical and educational systems in over 200 countries around the world including universities, colleges, secondary educational facilities and a large number of major hospitals, God guided or not, for the most part without funding from any government sources.

Well, I think Ellen White had a little help with this. Empire building is not a sign of Divine insight. Its a sign of good organization and motivation. And I'm not going to take away any credit for her part in inspiring a vision of medical care throughout the world.

The point is that when she is acting like a prophet she presents a number of glaring inconsistencies and contradictions. These are the means by which we can determine prophetic ability.

[cardw]

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One thing about repeating that which is not true, even if we at first doubted the lie, repeated often enough to ourselves it will become part of our viewpoint.

From my point of view, you keep repeating that which is not true. I, at least, try to provide some evidence besides quoting isolated verses from the Bible.

You might try addressing why Ellen White was so wrong about the Fox sisters since that is a pivotal point of her prophetic witness about what powers would combine in the last days.

[LifeHiscost]

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One thing about repeating that which is not true, even if we at first doubted the lie, repeated often enough to ourselves it will become part of our viewpoint.

From my point of view, you keep repeating that which is not true. I, at least, try to provide some evidence besides quoting isolated verses from the Bible.

You might try addressing why Ellen White was so wrong about the Fox sisters since that is a pivotal point of her prophetic witness about what powers would combine in the last days.

You have already pointed out that you do not believe the Word. However that hasn't removed my sense of sowing the seed, a charge that has been given to disciples of Christ.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. " Matt 28:19,20 NKJV

Therefore the answers given from Scripture are still for those who see in it viable answers to real and felt needs.

Regards!!

[cardw]

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You have already pointed out that you do not believe the Word. However that hasn't removed my sense of sowing the seed, a charge that has been given to disciples of Christ.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. " Matt 28:19,20 NKJV

Therefore the answers given from Scripture are still for those who see in it viable answers to real and felt needs.

I was dealing with facts. The Bible has nothing directly to say about the Fox sisters. Quoting scripture, in this case, is an evasion.

Your whole case appears to be founded on an attack of my character.

[John317]

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Speaking of which, you have not answered my question about John Calvin. You used what Ellen White said about Calvin as evidence that she didn't know what she was talking about and did not receive visions as she claimed.

This would be a relevant question if you had some external source that indicated that John Calvin was this way as a youth. I did look this up for you and found the following...

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He is described as having been of a shy and retiring nature, very studious and punctual in his work, animated by a strict sense of duty, and exceedingly religious. He early showed himself possessed of an intellect capable of clear, convincing argument and logical analysis. Through excessive industry he stored his mind with valuable information, but undermined his health. He advanced so rapidly that he was occasionally asked to take the place of the professors, and was considered by the other students as a doctor rather than an auditor. He was, at this time, a devout Cathode of unblemished character.

This is a young man who is a religious fanatic, hardly the sympathetic preacher of God's love. This is a young man out of balance. It should be noted that he was a devout Catholic.

The fact is, Richard, that Ellen White's description of John Calvin at that age is very similar to the description which highly regarded historians give of him:

In his book, The Reformation,p. 459, Will Durant wrote of the youthful Calvin: "The available evidence indicates an assiduous student, shy, taciturn, pious, and already 'a severe censor of his comrades' morals;' yet loved by his friends, now as later, with an unshakable fidelity."

And yes, he was a Catholic. Ellen White says clearly that Calvin had been educated for the priesthood, so it should come as no surprise that he was for a time a good, devout Catholic. It is your choice to see all kinds of problems with Ellen White's description of Calvin, but the fact is that she is in substantial agreement with historians on the matter of what Calvin was like as a young man.

[John317]

None of that negates the main emphasis that Ellen White gives, which is the great work that Calvin did in advancing protestantism and the central place of the Bible as opposed to church tradition and papal prouncements. It doesn't mean he was perfect or that he had no problems or defects. The same could be, and is, said of Luther and even of Paul, David, Noah, Abraham, etc.

[LifeHiscost]

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One thing about repeating that which is not true, even if we at first doubted the lie, repeated often enough to ourselves it will become part of our viewpoint.

From my point of view, you keep repeating that which is not true. I, at least, try to provide some evidence besides quoting isolated verses from the Bible.

You might try addressing why Ellen White was so wrong about the Fox sisters since that is a pivotal point of her prophetic witness about what powers would combine in the last days.

Your opinions are duly noted, and given the respect any one should be able to expect when giving evidence of a negative nature about someone who isn't alive to defend themselves, which person is still loved by multitudes of individuals who have been recipients of her gracious generosities.

OTOH, as a person who has identified themself as an unbeliever, our Father in Heaven still has at least three promises for all who honestly believe falsehood and haven't been given the adequate evidence to believe.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16 ASV

"And if you had only known what this saying means, I desire mercy [readiness to help, to spare, to forgive].... you would not have condemned the guiltless." Matthew 12:7 AMP

"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Luke 23:34 ASV

Regards!

[cardw]

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In his book, The Reformation,p. 459, Will Durant wrote of the youthful Calvin: "The available evidence indicates an assiduous student, shy, taciturn, pious, and already 'a severe censor of his comrades' morals;' yet loved by his friends, now as later, with an unshakable fidelity."

Note that your historian states that he was "already 'a severe censor of his comrades' morals;'" This would later become quite a bit more severe.

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but the fact is that she is in substantial agreement with historians on the matter of what Calvin was like as a young man.

She lionizes him. That's the problem.

[cardw]

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None of that negates the main emphasis that Ellen White gives, which is the great work that Calvin did in advancing protestantism and the central place of the Bible as opposed to church tradition and papal prouncements. It doesn't mean he was perfect or that he had no problems or defects. The same could be, and is, said of Luther and even of Paul, David, Noah, Abraham, etc.

That's the problem with the winners writing the history. No matter how immoral, evil, or cruel a person is, they get a free pass as long as they have the correct doctrine or they say they are sorry to the right god.

But, I notice that you ignore the stronger evidence, like the fox sisters, and you evade by debating minor evidence.

[cardw]

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Your opinions are duly noted, and given the respect any one should be able to expect when giving evidence of a negative nature about someone who isn't alive to defend themselves, which person is still loved by multitudes of individuals who have been recipients of her gracious generosities.

Well, I guess Buddha, Joseph Smith, David Karesh, aren't alive to defend themselves either. And they are loved by multitudes as well. The problem with Ellen White is that she is somehow above critical analysis, but if someone is outside our accepted teacher list they are now fair game.

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OTOH, as a person who has identified themself as an unbeliever, our Father in Heaven still has at least three promises for all who honestly believe falsehood and haven't been given the adequate evidence to believe.

Well that is really the problem. You have changed anything that is negative toward Ellen White or the Bible to a lack of adequate evidence.

Her "I was shown" on the Fox sisters is clearly false. And this is no minor mistake. She uses the events surrounding their lives as a basis of the beginning of spiritualism and claims that these events were the work of Satan. This, to me, clearly undermines her prophetic claims at a major junction.

This must be a real problem because no one wants to take it on. All I get is a lot of evasion. That should tell you something.

[John317]

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In his book, The Reformation,p. 459, Will Durant wrote of the youthful Calvin: "The available evidence indicates an assiduous student, shy, taciturn, pious, and already 'a severe censor of his comrades' morals;' yet loved by his friends, now as later, with an unshakable fidelity."

Note that your historian states that he was "already 'a severe censor of his comrades' morals;'" This would later become quite a bit more severe.

And notice that the last observation about Calvin as a youth-- that he was "a severe censor of his comrades' morals"-- does not by any means contradict the description by either Will Durant or Ellen White. Ellen White describes him as "naturally timid" (GC 221); Durant says Calvin was "shy." Ellen White describes the youthful Calvin as having a "gentle, unpretentious bearing;" Will Durant certainly does not contradict that view of Calvin at the age about which Ellen White writes on pages 221, 222. Durant does not infer in any way that Calvin attempted to impress people by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than he actually possessed (the definition of pretentious). Durant describes Calvin at that time as being "taciturn," or quiet, reserved, saying little.

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but the fact is that she is in substantial agreement with historians on the matter of what Calvin was like as a young man.

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She lionizes him. That's the problem.

The dictionary gives the following meaning to "lionize": give a lot of public attention and approval to (someone); treat as a celebrity : modern athletes are lionized.

It could just well be said that she believed Calvin to be what in fact he was: a central pillar in the protestant movement of the sixteenth century.

It is obvious that like many other protestants, Ellen White viewed him as someone whom God used to advance His truth. However, whether Ellen White "lionized" Calvin according to the meaning that this word carries in the dictionary is entirely a matter of opinion, and requires a jump to conclusions not warranted by her words in The Great Controversy, pp. 221, 222.

Obviously this does not mean that everything Calvin did or taught was true or correct. And it should be obvious, too, that the mere fact that she writes about him does not mean she approved of everything he did, any more than she approved of everything Luther did, or anyone else.

Evidently what [color:#FF0000]Ellen White wrote about Calvin bears repeating, that Calvin's "course as a public leader was not faultless, nor were his doctrines free from error. But he was instrumental in maintaining the principles of Protestantism against the fast returning tide of popery," etc. (GC 236).

The evidence is clear that what you claimed to be strong evidence of Ellen White's fakery turns out in reality to be in agreement with historians. What you appear to object to is the fact that Ellen White did not write about Calvin's defects. As she said elsewhere, Ellen White was not writing a "history" per se, but rather a testimony to the leading of God in the lives of important men and women who struggled in the the cause of Christ. Like the Gospels, the GC is not intended to serve as a complete history of that time period.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"But, I notice that you ignore the stronger evidence, like the fox sisters, and you evade by debating minor evidence."

There is a popular misunderstanding about the ways through which the devil works. On the one hand he tries to convince the people of this planet that he doesn t really exist, on the other hand he has to prepare the world for an union under his command. The Fox sisters may be a fraud, but that doesn t mean that satan didn t overshadow them. I know what i am talkin about because i myself was once overshadowed by the powers of darkness. As long as people are able to disagree, he rips our common sense apart and rules by division.

[John317]

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None of that negates the main emphasis that Ellen White gives, which is the great work that Calvin did in advancing protestantism and the central place of the Bible as opposed to church tradition and papal prouncements. It doesn't mean he was perfect or that he had no problems or defects. The same could be, and is, said of Luther and even of Paul, David, Noah, Abraham, etc.

That's the problem with the winners writing the history. No matter how immoral, evil, or cruel a person is, they get a free pass as long as they have the correct doctrine or they say they are sorry to the right god.

But, I notice that you ignore the stronger evidence, like the fox sisters, and you evade by debating minor evidence.

It was you, of course, who pointed to what Ellen White wrote about Calvin on pages 221 and 222 of The Great Controversy as showing that Ellen White did not receive any visions, etc. You said,

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This view of Calvin as a gentle unpretentious youth is absolutely not true. Calvin was a violent arrogant man who prided himself in the exact nature in which he followed the Bible and was even willing to burn his own son in law at the stake. Ellen White had no idea about the nature of these men and the culture they were in. She was not shown any of this. She, like she did with many of her visions, was taking things she had read and integrating them into a fantasy she had about her own prophetic ability.

Please notice first of all that whereas Ellen White was writing about a youthful Calvin, you attacked Ellen White for being wrong about a grown man. That is like saying, "How dare you describe this boy of 17 as gentle? He is a terrible man of 40."

I have shown above that Ellen White agrees with historian Will Durant in the essential details about what kind of young man Calvin was at the time about which Mrs. White writes in GC, pages 221 and 222. Thus your case that Ellen White was writing about Calvin on the basis of a fantasy is proven to be utterly without foundation.

What you earlier maintained was an important point showing Ellen White was false, you now change to being "minor evidence" and indicate that the subject is not worthy of "debating." If the evidence is "so minor" as you say, why then did you use such a misinterpretation of the facts to try to prove that Ellen White did not know what she was talking about?

As soon as we've dealt completely with the issue of Calvin, I'll be glad for us to go on and take up the question of the Fox Sisters and what Ellen White taught regarding the rise of spiritualism. I think it's a really important subject.

[John317]

I completely agree with you, truthseeker. You have made an excellent point, and one that we can continue to talk about. Another point is that people often make "confessions" very late in life, and years after the events occurred, as happened in this case, without necessarily telling the actual truth of the matter. The question becomes a matter to telling when these sisters were lying: were they lying during all those years when many people saw them and believed them; or did one of them lie many years later when she denied that anything had actually happened and that it was all a hoax? Can anyone know for a fact that she her "confession" was the truth?

In any case, it's been a good discussion here. Thanks for that good, insightful comment.

I have to get some sleep now as I've been up all night, but will be back in a few hours.

[Guest truthseeker007]

I am glad we agree on each other John. Most people with rational capacities take the easy worldy way. I am glad you are a defender of faith. What critics often forget is that if they are correct, there are a million new problems they can never explain scientifically, historically and socially. Because we know the bible life makes sense.

[Gail]

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Because we know the bible life makes sense.

Simple and profound. Thanks, Truthseeker

[jasd]

QR frame:

Re EGW vs Calvin as depicted in The Great Controversy

I am presently away from home and am unable to research the matter – but, does The Great Controversy later, or in following writings, elucidate upon the character of the mature Calvin?

Seems tah me that should the author have not addressed that absent [or no] qualifier or expanded further with a bit of relevant exposition – one infers that there existed either a profound lack of ‘knowing’ or worse – a deliberate misrepresentation. After all,

one assumes a well-read or otherwise insightful author to be familiar with the axiomatic “The child is father to the man” – and all that that might imply re The Reformation: or anything else for that matter…

[cardw]

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And notice that the last observation about Calvin as a youth-- that he was "a severe censor of his comrades' morals"-- does not by any means contradict the description by either Will Durant or Ellen White.

It is quite evident that Calvin was arrogant as far as he felt it was his right to be a severe censor of his comrades' morals. Being quiet or timid does not negate arrogance and a pension for violence. In fact these qualities are closer to what a sociopath would exude.

This statement would indicate that when involved with religious and moral issues, Calvin was quite a different person than the timid gentle door to door gospel guy. This plays out in his adult life when people were imprisoned and tortured for having playing cards. These attitudes were obviously present as a young man.

Here is a quote from Calvin as a young man, "I am not one of those in-sane lovers who, when once smitten with the fine figure of a woman, em-brace also her faults," he coolly warned his matchmakers. This is not the statement of a humble man.

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Until 1555, Calvin never had free reign in Geneva. He had many enemies who hated him, and he was open to constant ridicule that most men would not have tolerated. A wife of a leading stateman in Geneva was disciplined for dancing at a wedding (secretly she was a Libertine). In response, she called Calvin a “pig” and a “lowdown liar.”

“He could not walk across the street without being mocked, ‘There he goes, neighbor. I prefer to hear three dogs barking than to listen to him preach.’ ‘Did you know, hell has only two devils, and there goes one of them!’ Children called after him, twisting his name, ‘Cain, Cain!’ More than one dog answered to the name ‘Calvin!’ (Stickelberger, John Calvin).

So, obviously he was not well liked by everyone.

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Evidently what Ellen White wrote about Calvin bears repeating, that Calvin's "course as a public leader was not faultless, nor were his doctrines free from error. But he was instrumental in maintaining the principles of Protestantism against the fast returning tide of popery," etc. (GC 236).

He didn't reduce the effects of popery, he only altered a few doctrinal issues. He was jealous of Luther. He continued a reign of terror and the fruits of this man's "conversion" were simply religious arrogance, violence, jealousy, and policies that differed little from Catholic rule.

Any serious view of Calvin would realize that his character negates any technical "advances" he made with doctrine. The ultimate result of his doctrinal views were predestination and a concept of God's elect of which he was certain he was one of.

And, I would note that you are still evading the fox sisters. It was obvious that Ellen White was taken in by the charade. Not a good sign of prophetic ability.

[cardw]

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What you earlier maintained was an important point showing Ellen White was false, you now change to being "minor evidence" and indicate that the subject is not worthy of "debating." If the evidence is "so minor" as you say, why then did you use such a misinterpretation of the facts to try to prove that Ellen White did not know what she was talking about?

I put this as a separate post because you are presenting ideas that I did not put forth. I did not say the subject was not worth debating. I want to point out that this is a form of dishonesty. When you resort to this, you indicate that your position requires bearing a false witness. This happens to me over and over and further confirms the weakness of the claims of those who believe in her prophetic gift.

The quality of this evidence is far more in the realm of conjecture, of which you are freely partaking, as well. That is why it is minor.

Now the issue of the Fox sisters has very direct forms of evidence. And, in this case, you have to refute the facts. That is why this evidence is much stronger.

The only way, that I can see, for you to deal with the Fox sisters is to first, discredit the confession, and second, provide evidence that it actually was Satan making the rapping noises.

Both of these approaches are clearly unlikely. And the suggestion that the devil was behind it, even though the sisters were frauds, and even though Ellen White was duped, doesn't really help Ellen White that much because her statement about the Fox sisters is in a major work of hers that is considered one of the most prophetic of her writings.

[cardw]

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Most people with rational capacities take the easy worldy way.

Exaggeration and myth. No one has an easy way. If this is true then we could state the opposite.

Most irrational people take the hard Biblical way.

From my point of view, this might actually be true.

[LifeHiscost]

Because we know the bible, life makes sense.

Definately true. However a knowledge of the Bible is not sufficient to quell all doubt and naysayers. Lucifer, who later became satan, knew, and now knows the Scriptures, but he did not and does not know Jesus.

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:20 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Most irrational people take the hard Biblical way.

From my point of view, this might actually be true.

One can certainly see it that way, but it does not fit well with the Word from Jesus.

"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden and overburdened, and I will cause you to rest.For My yoke is wholesome (useful, good--not harsh, hard, sharp, or pressing, but comfortable, gracious, and pleasant), and My burden is light and easy to be borne." Matthew 11:28,30 AMP

Maybe the reason the carrying of the gospel is so difficult to some is because they are not fully accepting of the yoke He requires, but have taken upon themselves the yoke that other, perhaps well meaning people, have determined to be their rightful load.

Regards!

[John317]

And would you say the same about John the Baptist?