Ellen White a false prophet?!?!

[John317]

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God is Love. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Word. All Biblical Truth is of the Word. Ignore the Word (Truth) and nothing is left but a lie.

This meme sets up a state of belief that is unreachable by reason or evidence of any kind because any evidence outside of the Bible, no matter how reasonable, is considered to be a lie.

What and who did Eve trust-- the word of God or her senses and reason? I believe that those who make it through to the Second Coming and are saved will be those who trust the word of God rather than their senses and human reasoning. For instance, those who trust their senses will follow Satan and the Beast power; those who trust God and His Word will follow what the Bible teaches no matter what. We're told that Satan will come impersonating Christ and that except for a few the entire world will accept him. Those few will have learned through practice to trust the Word of God. They will need to trust God even though it may seem, as with Elijah, that they are alone in doing it.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

He was primarily talking about our love for each other-- the way we treat each other. Especially when we disagree. His followers will be known by their love. Not by our seeing eye to eye on every detail of every doctrine.

Uniformly, not uniformity. Hitler wanted uniformity.

Regards!

Exactly. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot all had that in common, despite other philosophical and political differences. You might say God isn't so interested in a person's interpretation of the little horn or the king of north as he is in how we treat others who disagree with our view of those things.

[cardw]

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What and who did Eve trust-- the word of God or her senses and reason? I believe that those who make it through to the Second Coming and are saved will be those who trust the word of God rather than their senses and human reasoning.

Well, it is still human reason that comes the this conclusion. Human reason is all we have unless you are claiming to have some superior mind.

That's the problem with prophets and holy books. They have no accountability and belief in belief overrides all other forms of information. Historically this approach has created great atrocities in this world of ours.

[John317]

No one is saying that no reasoning is involved in the decision to trust God.

Eve was faced with the decision whether to trust God's word and command or whether to trust her senses and her human reasoning. What does this mean? Simply that we have to decide whether to reject what God has said or to accept it. What did Eve do? She decided to reject God's command and to accept her senses' testimony that the fruit looked like it would do her no harm. She chose to accept the testimony of Satan. We face the same decisions every day.

Of course there is reasoning involved. Faith is not blind faith-- it is faith supported by evidence. The evidence says we can trust God and His Word because it has proved itself reliable-- more reliable than our senses and human reasoning when the Word and human reasoning conflict.

[LifeHiscost]

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What and who did Eve trust-- the word of God or her senses and reason? I believe that those who make it through to the Second Coming and are saved will be those who trust the word of God rather than their senses and human reasoning.

Well, it is still human reason that comes the this conclusion. Human reason is all we have unless you are claiming to have some superior mind.

The underlined___Bingo!!!

"Now these [Jews] were better disposed and more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they were entirely ready and accepted and welcomed the message [ concerning the attainment through Christ of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God] with inclination of mind and eagerness, searching and examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." Acts 17:11 AMP

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16 KJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

God is Love. Jesus is God. Jesus is the Word. All Biblical Truth is of the Word. Ignore the Word (Truth) and nothing is left but a lie.

This meme sets up a state of belief that is unreachable by reason or evidence of any kind because any evidence outside of the Bible, no matter how reasonable, is considered to be a lie.

Some find evidence of eternal reality through the moving of the Holy Spirit. However Truth does not restrict Himself only to those who know of His presence but also to those who will not reject Him when He speaks to them.

"For no prophecy (the declared will and purpose of God), ever originated because some man willed it [to do so--it never came by human impulse], but men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21 AMP

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Corinthians 1:25 KJV

Regards!

[jasd]

QR frame:

Re Hitler

Lest we, too quickly, recount history as written by our very own historians – we might do well to remember that a not so small portion of Hitler’s endeavours was to remedy the attenuated situation of his people – as well as to restore that which had been taken from the German peoples – among which was the city Danzig.

Too often we forget that the greater conflicts of WWII occurred on the Eastern Front (where Germany lost 70% of her fighting forces as well an estimated 5 million of her finest who disappeared into the Soviet Gulag); and were it not for Hitler and the National Socialist Party – the world as we know it today would probably not exist. Instead,

the German peoples would have been subsumed to the Communist International and we would have had in the main, a gathering of the Germans and the Slavs – quite the combination.

[cardw]

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The evidence says we can trust God and His Word because it has proved itself reliable-- more reliable than our senses and human reasoning when the Word and human reasoning conflict.

This has absolutely no basis in fact. If we look at the evidence, the Bible glaringly fails to provide moral guidance of any advanced nature that cannot be found simply by using reason. The OT if full of iron age mentality that promotes slavery, punishes people with death for almost any offense, and rewards loyalty to God even if it involves human sacrifice, genocide, or rape.

This mentality that rewards loyalty to God simply because one believes they are following the Bible creates some of the worst environments to live in.

These ideas require complicated theologies and apologetics to maintain because the god of the Bible is revengeful, violent, and unpredictable.

These are all memes that we are expected to simply accept because someone has said so. It has been with us so long that we no longer question it.

[cardw]

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Ellen White, then, was writing for the same purpose that the writers of the Gospels wrote their books: to convince people to follow Jesus Christ. Ellen White wrote what she did about Luther and Calvin, not in order to tell all of the facts about these men, but in order to show people how God had led in the Protestant reformation, and convince people that God is still in ultimate control of human history today and that we should trust Him with our lives.

Here is the full context of Ellen White's discussion of Calvin in the Great Controversy...

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While still engaged in these fruitless struggles, Calvin, chancing one day to visit one of the public squares, witnessed there the burning of a heretic. He was filled with wonder at the expression of peace which rested upon the martyr's countenance. Amid the tortures of that dreadful death, and under the more terrible condemnation of the church, he

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manifested a faith and courage which the young student painfully contrasted with his own despair and darkness, while living in strictest obedience to the church. Upon the Bible, he knew, the heretics rested their faith. He determined to study it, and discover, if he could, the secret of their joy.

In the Bible he found Christ. "O Father," he cried, "His sacrifice has appeased Thy wrath; His blood has washed away my impurities; His cross has borne my curse; His death has atoned for me. We had devised for ourselves many useless follies, but Thou hast placed Thy word before me like a torch, and Thou hast touched my heart, in order that I may hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus." --Martyn, vol. 3, ch. 13.

Calvin had been educated for the priesthood. When only twelve years of age he had been appointed to the chaplaincy of a small church, and his head had been shorn by the bishop in accordance with the canon of the church. He did not receive consecration, nor did he fulfill the duties of a priest, but he became a member of the clergy, holding the title of his office, and receiving an allowance in consideration thereof.

Now, feeling that he could never become a priest, he turned for a time to the study of law, but finally abandoned this purpose and determined to devote his life to the gospel. But he hesitated to become a public teacher. He was naturally timid, and was burdened with a sense of the weighty responsibility of the position, and he desired still to devote himself to study. The earnest entreaties of his friends, however, at last won his consent. "Wonderful it is," he said, "that one of so lowly an origin should be exalted to so great a dignity."--Wylie, b. 13, ch. 9.

Quietly did Calvin enter upon his work, and his words were as the dew falling to refresh the earth. He had left Paris, and was now in a provincial town under the protection of the princess Margaret, who, loving the gospel, extended her protection to its disciples. Calvin was still a youth, of

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gentle, unpretentious bearing. His work began with the people at their homes. Surrounded by the members of the household, he read the Bible and opened the truths of salvation. Those who heard the message carried the good news to others, and soon the teacher passed beyond the city to the outlying towns and hamlets. To both the castle and the cabin he found entrance, and he went forward, laying the foundation of churches that were to yield fearless witnesses for the truth.

A few months and he was again in Paris. There was unwonted agitation in the circle of learned men and scholars. The study of the ancient languages had led men to the Bible, and many whose hearts were untouched by its truths were eagerly discussing them and even giving battle to the champions of Romanism. Calvin, though an able combatant in the fields of theological controversy, had a higher mission to accomplish than that of these noisy schoolmen. The minds of men were stirred, and now was the time to open to them the truth. While the halls of the universities were filled with the clamor of theological disputation, Calvin was making his way from house to house, opening the Bible to the people, and speaking to them of Christ and Him crucified.

This view of Calvin as a gentle unpretentious youth is absolutely not true. Calvin was a violent arrogant man who prided himself in the exact nature in which he followed the Bible and was even willing to burn his own son in law at the stake. Ellen White had no idea about the nature of these men and the culture they were in. She was not shown any of this. She, like she did with many of her visions, was taking things she had read and integrating them into a fantasy she had about her own prophetic ability.

[John317]

Do you personally accept the Bible as the Word of God or as merely the product of human beings, such as Joyce's Ulysses is, for instance, or Ford's auto factory?

[cardw]

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What and who did Eve trust-- the word of God or her senses and reason? I believe that those who make it through to the Second Coming and are saved will be those who trust the word of God rather than their senses and human reasoning.

Quote:

Well, it is still human reason that comes the this conclusion. Human reason is all we have unless you are claiming to have some superior mind.

The underlined___Bingo!!!

"Now these [Jews] were better disposed and more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they were entirely ready and accepted and welcomed the message [ concerning the attainment through Christ of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God] with inclination of mind and eagerness, searching and examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." Acts 17:11 AMP

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16 KJV

With this attitude than there is no hope of you listening to anything I have to say. There is no evidence, reason, or fact that will change your mind.

[Woody]

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With this attitude than there is no hope of you listening to anything I have to say. There is no evidence, reason, or fact that will change your mind.

I agree with you. What a shame. But don't fear ... there are others who are less arrogant. Hang in there. Keep the dialogue going.

[cardw]

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Do you personally accept the Bible as the Word of God or as merely the product of human beings, such as Joyce's Ulysses is, for instance, or Ford's auto factory?

From my study of the origins of the Bible, the people who likely put the Bible together, their motivations for doing so, what other cultures around them believed, it is very apparent to me that the Bible is the work of men only.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there is no such extraordinary evidence.

While I am labelled an atheist by Christians because I don't believe in the Christian god, I do have a rich spiritual approach to life that is very happy to leave the idea of what god is and wants a mystery. And if there is a God, I am reasonably sure that the Bible does not contain a description of that God.

[cardw]

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Some find evidence of eternal reality through the moving of the Holy Spirit. However Truth does not restrict Himself only to those who know of His presence but also to those who will not reject Him when He speaks to them.

I want to make an additional observation about this statement. When I talk with the cult members of Strong City who are led by Wayne Bent, former Adventist Pastor now called Michael Travesser, you can read the very same claims for their views.

They have called me the son of the father of lies because I don't believe that Wayne Bent is the Messiah. They tell me that I would know this if the Father and Spirit had come to tell me.

You illustrate the technology of belief that every fundamentalist styled ideology or religion uses. If reason and evidence fail then an appeal to the lack of "true" spiritual vision is presented.

This is the foundation of a belief in the Bible as God's word and the foundation of Ellen White as a prophet. It's smoke and mirrors that is sustained only by appeals to authority, fearful consequences, manipulation, and, when these fail, physical violence.

If God speaks to us, he must be saying something different to a lot of different people. You can ask me to call the color red blue, but I will still believe its red. When you ask me to believe that the Bible is the Word of God or that Ellen White is a prophet, the evidence will not allow me to believe it.

[John317]

How old do you believe Calvin was at the point referred to in those pages of The Great Controversy? When did Calvin leave Paris? Is it your contention that John Calvin never had a "gentle, unpretentious bearing" during the time which Mrs. White has reference to?

Would you describe John Calvin when a youth as shy, reserved, not given to much talk, devoutly religious, and loved by his friends? If not, then how would you describe him when he was at the age about which Ellen White writes on p. 221?

[John317]

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Do you personally accept the Bible as the Word of God or as merely the product of human beings, such as Joyce's Ulysses is, for instance, or Ford's auto factory?

From my study of the origins of the Bible, the people who likely put the Bible together, their motivations for doing so, what other cultures around them believed, it is very apparent to me that the Bible is the work of men only.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and there is no such extraordinary evidence.

While I am labelled an atheist by Christians because I don't believe in the Christian god, I do have a rich spiritual approach to life that is very happy to leave the idea of what god is and wants a mystery. And if there is a God, I am reasonably sure that the Bible does not contain a description of that God.

And after almost 40 years of study, discussion, reflection, and prayer on the subject, I have come to the exact opposite conclusion of yours with regard to the Bible, God, the Seventh-day Adventist church, and Ellen White. No two people could apparently be further apart as far as these subjects are concerned.

If you believe the Bible is just like any other book and that God does not reveal anything or speak to us in any way in its pages-- and if you believe that God may not even exist-- and, finally, if you believe that Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are all false--- then what makes you want to participate in Adventist discussions? What is your motive for being here?

I am glad you are here but I would like to know why you spend so much time with people with whom you seem to have so little in common? What is it that attracts you to the forum or club?

I don't know how long you've been a member, but during the time you've been here, can you think of any way in which your beliefs or views have changed because of what you read on clubadventist-- whether negative or positive toward God, Christianity, the Bible, the SDA church, or perhaps the Adventist message?

[LifeHiscost]

And we will be united, with all those who choose Jesus' love, the great leveling circumstance being the foot of the cross.

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35 NASB

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Doing things less than perfect is not necessarily indicative of not being called by God for a particular position of responsibility.

"And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?"

Would that all who sit in criticism of Ellen White be as blameless as she. Persons doing it "all right" is not sufficient to save the soul. However lending ourself to the righteousness of Jesus, does.

" All of us have become like one who is unclean,

and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

we all shrivel up like a leaf,

and like the wind our sins sweep us away." Isaiah 64:6 NIV

Regards!!

[cardw]

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If you believe the Bible is just like any other book and that God does not reveal anything or speak to us in any way in its pages-- and if you believe that God may not even exist-- and, finally, if you believe that Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are all false--- then what makes you want to participate in Adventist discussions? What is your motive for being here?

This reveals why we don't see things the same. Just because I talk about specific issues doesn't mean that I generalize it to "Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are ALL false."

There are truths within everything and we all are operating under some type of unsubstantiated belief system. That is simply the human condition.

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I am glad you are here but I would like to know why you spend so much time with people with whom you seem to have so little in common? What is it that attracts you to the forum or club?

There are certain assumptions that both Seventh Day Adventists and Christians in general make that I believe cause mental and emotional pain. And its based on an unquestioning belief in the Bible. To put it into Biblical terms, its is idol worship of the Bible or words. And within Adventism I believe there are cultural assumptions that make some Adventist's vulnerable to extreme cultic manipulation because they are taught to use a selective form of reasoning, particularly when it involves Ellen White. And because of this they have absorbed some pretty toxic ways of viewing themselves and the world based on how Ellen White viewed not only herself, but the world around her. These views are full of paranoia and self loathing. I know, because I grew up with them. I have also been a witness to many people trying to loyally follow everything that Ellen White wrote completely destroy their lives.

Fortunately there are people who can read her selectively and pastorally. To me, when you reach this point, the magical label of Divine inspiration is negated, because I have read far more insightful wisdom writings than Ellen White.

What I realized is that the defense of her and the Bible often rely on evasion and the avoidance of the difficult problems. This is done through either claiming that one will only understand these through the spirit or that we can't understand the mysterious ways of God or some unlikely conjecture is brought forward that would keep her more unlikely claims true.

This is not a very strong basis for the view that these are Divine documents. They strain the edges of probability. And just because something has parts of it that are true or beneficial does not make them Divine. This would take extraordinary evidence. And I don't see anything that looks like extraordinary evidence.

[LifeHiscost]

All who look to EGW, Calvin, Moses, the apostle Paul, or cardw for their salvation will fall just as far into oblivion.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12 KJV

Regards!

[John317]

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If you believe the Bible is just like any other book and that God does not reveal anything or speak to us in any way in its pages-- and if you believe that God may not even exist-- and, finally, if you believe that Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are all false--- then what makes you want to participate in Adventist discussions? What is your motive for being here?

This reveals why we don't see things the same. Just because I talk about specific issues doesn't mean that I generalize it to "Seventh-day Adventist doctrines are ALL false."

There are truths within everything and we all are operating under some type of unsubstantiated belief system. That is simply the human condition.

Are there any Seventh-day Adventist teachings that you agree with or feel passionate about?

How about the Sabbath? Has your experience with Sabbath-keeping been a positive, enjoyable one?

And what about Jesus? I would like to know what you think of Him. Do you think the Gospels tell us the truth about Him?

[LifeHiscost]

If you are still of the opinion that there is a lot of the schematics of the universe you are ignorant of, there is still hope of seeking and finding Truth. Once having found It, the joy you receive from Him will supercede all your personal efforts to go to other sources for your wisdom.

As to your above comment,

"Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:8,9 NIV

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:29 KJV

Regards!

[John317]

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There are certain assumptions that both Seventh Day Adventists and Christians in general make that I believe cause mental and emotional pain. And its based on an unquestioning belief in the Bible. To put it into Biblical terms, its is idol worship of the Bible or words.

What you say certainly can be true and may be true for some people. No one should worship the Bible but rather the God of the Bible.

I don't see believing the Bible is the Word of God as necessarily constituting idol worship. It is not putting the Bible in the place of God Himself. Obeying God's commands shouldn't be understood as worshipping the command.

Would we be better off, and would we be doing God great honor, to disobey God's commands in any particular way?

If simply believing the Bible is the Word of God means we are guilty of idol worship, then it would involve people such as Jesus, the apostle Paul and Isaiah in false worship.

Are you as firm a believer in all of the Ten Commandments as you evidently are in the first commandment?

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And within Adventism I believe there are cultural assumptions that make some Adventist's vulnerable to extreme cultic manipulation because they are taught to use a selective form of reasoning, particularly when it involves Ellen White.

Can you give an example of this?

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And because of this they have absorbed some pretty toxic ways of viewing themselves and the world based on how Ellen White viewed not only herself, but the world around her. These views are full of paranoia and self loathing. I know, because I grew up with them.

If this is true, wouldn't that mean SDAs and all others would be better off not to read Ellen White or pay any attention to her at all?

There is no question that everything good can be perverted and made into something bad. Is Ellen White to blame for what some people do with her writings-- even though they are doing it DESPITE what she says?

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I have also been a witness to many people trying to loyally follow everything that Ellen White wrote completely destroy their lives.

Would you say that Christ's life was completely destroyed because of His loyalty to God? And how about Moses-- he could have been a king of Egypt, but instead he chose to lead a bunch of ex-slaves out into the desert, where he died poor.

How, also, about William Tyndale, who was burned at the stake? Wasn't his life completely destroyed because of his attempt to do what he believed God wanted him to do?

Could you tell what exactly happened in the case of the people you are referring to? What exactly did these people do?

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Fortunately there are people who can read her selectively and pastorally. To me, when you reach this point, the magical label of Divine inspiration is negated, because I have read far more insightful wisdom writings than Ellen White.

We shouldn't be surprised if we find much wisdom outside the Bible and Ellen White. God is the source of all wisdom, I believe, and there is a very sense in which God has illuminated all of humanity, even though that illumination does not always result in salvation. God's grace falls upon all of life.

I find a lot of wisdom in some of the Greek philosophers such as Plato and Socrates, and there is wisdom also in the East. But the problem is that the wisdom in those sources is a mixture of truth and error. If taken in its proper context, the Bible is pure truth. I don't believe it contains errors in terms of its teachings on matters of salvation and the gospel.

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What I realized is that the defense of her and the Bible often rely on evasion and the avoidance of the difficult problems.

Often, perhaps, but certainly not always. People have different reasons for their various reactions to "difficult problems."

You said:

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There are truths within everything and we all are operating under some type of unsubstantiated belief system. That is simply the human condition.

Do you believe that if someone can't prove or show good reason for every aspect of their belief system, that he ought to give it up and reject it?

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This is done through either claiming that one will only understand these through the spirit or that we can't understand the mysterious ways of God or some unlikely conjecture is brought forward that would keep her more unlikely claims true.

This is not a very strong basis for the view that these are Divine documents. They strain the edges of probability.

It seems to me that the edges of probability are far more stretched by the belief that Ellen White was a fake and that all of her books and her entire life resulted from an illusion or a lie. The same applies to the life and teaching of Jesus.

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And just because something has parts of it that are true or beneficial does not make them Divine.

I agree. The Mormon writings are an example of this, as are the writings of many Eastern religions, and much else. All truth ultimately comes from God, however, but it doesn't mean that everything that accompanies it is true.

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This would take extraordinary evidence. And I don't see anything that looks like extraordinary evidence.

For starters, take a close look at Ezekiel 26; Daniel 2 and 9; Deut. 28; Obadiah; and the evidence that Herbert Douglass exhibits in his book, Dramatic Prophecies of Ellen White.

I am convinced by the evidence of the Bible and history, but we each must be convinced personally and individually. I believe the evidence is clear, but not every individual is going to be convinced of anything no matter how much evidence there is. Belief is not due to evidence alone or even in the ability to reason well, but belief also depends on the willingness to believe and obey.

[John317]

Truer words were never spoken. Moses, Paul, and Ellen White all point everyone to God and Christ as the ground and source of salvation.

[jasd]

>>If taken in its proper context, the Bible is pure truth. I don't believe it contains errors in terms of its teachings on matters of salvation and the gospel.<<

John317 makes several good points in the above quote; however, I note: “context” is often a matter of interpretation – as are the “pure truths” contained in Writ. ‘Interpretation’ has often led to a sort of chauvinism amongst the Xtian peoples; witness, the approximately 30-plus thousand differing .orgs and their selective cants and litanies, scansions and meters, etc...

Let me put it simply – there is no .org, or .Org, that has a lock on what Holy Writ communicates. Period.

Let me say that again, “Period.”

Those who claim that their ‘take’ on Writ are “The Truths” suffer following, the serious maladjustment of decrying all others of the body Jesus Christ of whom – He is the head.