Ellen White a false prophet?!?!

[Gail]

But golden cards are not an Adventist belief, as you state... This is just something that she saw. Because the Bible doesn't mention them doesn't mean there isn't such a thing, or there is. Heaven most likely contains a lot more than what the Bible describes.

Whatever the case is, it is not relevant to our salvation. I don't remember it ever being brought up in conversation here, can anyone else?

[LifeHiscost]

Hmmm Golden cards??talkin about brain sewage;

No Seventh-day Adventist can supply Scriptural support for such. Therefore, members of the SDA church go beyond the Bible for their beliefs and this is because of the writings of Ellen G. White, a Bible-defined false prophetess.

I would guess then you would be inclined to believe the books here mentioned as brain sewage?

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did. If they should be all recorded one by one [in detail], I suppose that even the world itself could not contain (have room for) the books that would be written." John 21:25 AMP

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." John 21:25 NIV

"This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Isn't there a second death when the hell fire comes down from heaven and the wicked are burned up in order to eliminate sin?

You are absolutely correct about the second death for the unrepentant, who refuse to accept the gospel of salvation as a free gift through faith in Jesus' shed blood for their sins. OTOH you will notice by the Scripture texts given, that the redeemed die only once, Jesus having paid the price of salvation by accepting the second death in His own body, for the blessed of the Lord.

Regards!

[John317]

Ellen White mentions many things not in the Bible. In the same way, Saint Paul said things that John or Peter or Isaiah did not say. The mark of a false prophet is not that they mention or teach things not in the Bible; it is that they teach CONTRARY to Scripture or contrary to a previous prophet of God. The golden cards are not contrary to scripture and therefore they can't validly be used as evidence that Ellen White was a false prophet.

[Guest truthseeker007]

The following is from Mr Rea. I don t copy paste this to bash the church, but to immunize ourselves against criticism/lies. I think it would be very well possible for the devil to inspire false prophets to write the same things Ellen wrote in order to make her look like a false prophet.

"I was shown..." statements copied from other authors

This study, which I call HOW THE THOUGHTS AND SUPPOSITIONS OF OTHERS WRITERS BECAME GOD’S ABSOLUTES THROUGH ELLEN G. WHITE, will show that each time Ellen White said ‘I was shown’ to give the impression that God was speaking through her, she was in reality copying other people's thoughts and impressions, often word for word, without giving credit to her human sources. The study will also show that as she copied, starting at the very beginning of her writings to the very end, that even in her most serious, and some think ‘sacred’ ‘testimonies’, she was turning the suppositions and fantasies of those writers she was copying into her absolutes from God, as if she was getting her ‘insights’ and ‘inspiration’ from a higher source.

No reasonable person after checking the references given and the copy work presented could seriously argue in public or private that ‘God’ had anything to do with such deception. If any other group or denomination on earth presented such information and writings and they were exposed as the study shows, Seventh—day Adventists would be the first to condemn the material as false and seriously flawed as far as having anything to do with a reasonable God. Indeed, they have done just that in the book The Great Controversy, supposedly communicated by God to the world through Ellen White. The book attacks almost every religious system in the civilized world but yet makes it clear that God only approves of those Adventists who believe, live and practice what Ellen White, their prophet, has said God told them to believe. If Adventist would confess that they have been in error in their assessment of Mrs. White and her writings, they could then go on to a more sensible approach by using what she wrote as instruction for her time, by men and woman of their time, reaching as they and all of us are, for a better understanding of God and how he instructs men and woman of our time. This is what I hope this study will accomplish for those that read it without anger or prejudice.

As a former minister of the Seventh—day Adventist Church who was relieved of my Church credentials because I allowed the Church and public to know of my findings, what I discovered does not shake my faith in God or His plan of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. In fact, it was my desire to move Adventism away from many of its fanatical views given through the ‘insights’ of Ellen White. Recognizing the Adventist mind set, there will be those that will call down Heaven's wrath upon me and this study, as has always been the case when some one past or present attempts to change men’s thinking in any age about anything. Perhaps it would be well to quote from a well-known author, M. Scott Peck and his book The Road Less Traveled-. pg.46.

What happens when one has striven long and hard to develop a working view of the world, a seemingly useful, workable map, and then is confronted with new information suggesting that that view is wrong and the map needs to be largely redrawn? The painful effort required seems frightening, almost overwhelming. What we do more often than not, and usually unconsciously, is ignore the new information. Often this act of ignoring is much more than passive. We may denounce the new information as false, dangerous, heretical, the work of the devil. We may actually crusade against it, and even attempt to manipulate the world so as to make it conform to our view of reality. Rather than try to change the map, an individual may try to destroy the new reality. Sadly, such a person, may expend much more energy ultimately in defending an outmoded view of the world than would have been required to revise and correct it in the first place.

What he is suggesting is that it takes more honesty and courage to change than to continue to believe a White lie.

It is very fair to ask the question: Did Ellen G. White, the Seventh-day Adventist prophet, receive her instructions, insights, information and wisdom from human sources or from divine revelation and inspiration as is claimed?

In order to be as objective as possible it is only fair and proper to present what Ellen White herself said in public and in her writings as to her source of material. There are many such statements but only a few are necessary in as much as none of the statements, from the beginning to the end of her life ever changed from the thought that God was behind it all. Hundreds of ‘I was shown’ were used in her early writings, and no doubt was ever left as to who showed her what. It was always an angel of God or of the Spirit of God and not man. Note the following:

“God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision --the precious rays of light shining from the throne…”

(letter to Dr. Paulson; St. Helena, California, June 14, 1906, Selected Messages pp 24—37)

“You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God. You know how the Lord has manifested himself through the Spirit of prophecy. Past, present, and future have passed before me. . . if you seek to turn aside the counsel of God to suit yourselves, if you lessen the confidence of God’s people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abiram. . . God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter but prompted by the Spirit of God. To bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision.-The precious rays of light shining from the throne . . .”

(The Testimonies Slighted; Healdsburg, California June 20, 1882, Testimony for the Church vol. 5: pp 62—70)

And yet, in spite of these absolute, unequivocal statements, what followed in the next paragraph and for several after, was word for word, thought for thought, sentence for sentence, copy work from another author. Without giving any credit to any human source, leaving the impression to anyone reading that it all came by ‘what God has opened before in vision’ or ‘things that had been shown me.’ or ‘prompted by the Spirit of God.’ (read the White Lie by Walter Rea for these comparisons) Certainly this is a different concept of ‘vision or the Spirit of God’ than the Church has been taught in the past.

Night Scenes in the Bible

Daniel Marsh 1868—1870

Testimony for the Church, vol. 5; p. 68

Ellen G. White. June 20, 1882

We must not defer our obedience till every shadow of uncertainty and every possibility of mistake is removed. The doubt that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to faith, for faith rests upon probability, not demonstration . . .we must obey the voice of duty when there are many other voices crying against it, and it requires earnest heed to distinguish the one which speaks for God. We must cherish the impulse of conscience in the moment when it urges us to action, lest it cease from its promptings and we be left to the blind guidance of appetite and passion.

If you refuse to believe until every shadow of uncertainty and every possibility of doubt is removed you will never believe. The doubt that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to faith. Faith rests upon evidence, not demonstration. The Lord requires us to obey the voice of duty, when there are other voices all around us urging us to pursue an opposite course. It requires earnest attention from us to distinguish the voice which speaks for God. We must resist and conquer inclination, and obey the voice of conscience without parleying or com­promise, lest its prompting cease and will and impulse control.

Testimony for the Church,

vol. 3; p. 258, 1872—5 Letter to Dr. Paulson, June 14, 1906 Selected Messages vol. 1, pp 27—28

I was shown that God has laid upon on my husband and me a special work. . . and many will defer their obedience to the warning and reproofs given, waiting till every shadow of uncertainty is removed from their minds. The unbelief that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to the evidence that God is pleased to give. He requires of His people faith that rests upon the weight of evidence, not upon perfect knowledge. Those followers of Christ who accept the light that God sends them must obey the voice of God speaking to them when there are many other voices crying out against it. It requires discernment to distinguish the voice of God.

If you refuse to believe until every shadow of uncertainty and every possibility of doubt is removed, you will never believe. The doubt that demands perfect knowledge will never yield to faith. faith rests upon evidence, not demonstration. The Lord requires us to obey the voice of duty, when there are other voices all around us urging us to pursue an opposite course. It requires earnest attention from us to distinguish the voice which speaks from God. We must resist and conquer inclination, and obey the voice of conscience without parleying or compromise, lest its promptings cease and will and impulse control.

In all of these cases, Ellen White is promoting her authority as the voice of God, her instructions as first from God. Yet, in spite of the fact that she is using the words, thoughts, and sentence structure of another, we are suppose to believe that God is speaking what she is saying. He is not.

"Visions" originated with others

The conviction or assumption that God was showing Ellen White all that she said she saw from whatever source she gleaned the information, started very early with Ellen. In a book written by Delbert W. Baker, a black Adventist minister, entitled The Unknown Prophet, Baker produces some interesting information. Foy, who is Baker’s unknown prophet, had his ‘vision’ from 1842—1845. On page 123 Baker states that Mrs. White in 1912 said

“He had all these before I had them. They were written out and published. She indicates that at one time she possessed a copy of them.”

In Dec. 1844, at the age of 17, Ellen had her first vision, which was full of ‘I saw’, or ‘I was shown, or ‘the angel said,’ it was a duplication of Foy’s ‘vision’ and on pages 95 and others of Baker’s book, a list of the similarities are given. The garments, countenance, eyes, legs, feet, crown, arm, hand, voice and some of the scenes are identical, often with Ellen using the same words. Only a few examples need be given of the many to make the point that Ellen’s ‘vision’ was not given by God to Ellen, but was taken from Foy. Wherever he claimed he got it, it is possible that she believed God gave it to her, but others did not always believe as she did.

Christian Experience of W. E. Foy Christian Experience of E.G.W. 1846

“I then see countless millions of shining ones coming with cards held in their hands. These shining ones became our guides. The cards, they bore shone above the brightness of the sun; and they placed them in our hands but the names of them I could not read.

“There were countless millions of bright angels, whose wings were like pure gold, and they sang with loud voices, while their wings cried, holy.

“Behind the angel I beheld countless millions of bright chariots...each chariot had four wings like flaming fire and an angel followed after the chariot, and the wings of the chariot, and the wings of the angel cried as one voice saying, ‘holy.’

The Unknown Prophet, pp 10-11, 18

"All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card, which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as they pass in and out." Early Writings, p. 39

"On either side of the chariot were wings and beneath it wheels. As the chariot rolled upward, the wheels cried 'holy' and the wings as they moved, cried 'holy'.

"And as the chariot rolled upward the wheels cried, ‘holy’ and the wings as they moved, cried, ‘holy’ and the retinue of holy angels, around the cloud cried, ’holy’ ‘holy’ Lord God Almighty"

Early Writings p. 35; Spiritual Gifts vol. 1, p. 208

In spite of Delbert Baker’s provocative title and his presuppositions about God and the ‘visions’ that William Foy was supposed to have had, there is no evidence given in his book that Foy was a prophet, let alone an unknown one. Nothing that he said he saw or what was later copied by Ellen White has proven to be true or a prophecy. It cannot even be said that the ‘people of God’ of the ‘visions’ had anything to do with the Seventh-day Adventist Church, as Ellen White would have people believe, in as much as there was no Seventh-day Adventist church at that time, and none of the rest of the events listed can be examined or proved.

Perhaps one of the greatest shocks to the Adventist myth of Ellen’s ‘divine visions’ came with the publication by Harper's Row of Ronald Numbers book Prophetess of Health in 1976. In the book, Numbers documents dozens of parallels where Ellen White is paraphrasing or even using the same words, thoughts and language of others and insisting that what she was seeing was coming directly from God. But Numbers had only scratched the surface as the following references will show Ellen was copying not just from the doctors of her time, but from many, many others in every field of thought she wrote about, always making sure that the ‘vision’ or ‘scene’ sounded as if she herself was there to ‘see’ or ‘hear’ what was actually taking place.

Even the "Testimonies" were copied from other writers

Beginning with the first volume of the Testimonies to the Church, covering the period from 1855-1868, to the last volume nine, Ellen used whatever writers she wished to agree with and claimed it all came from God, but always to her first, never giving credit to any other source. Listed below are hundreds of references in her writings where she has taken and used the thoughts, words, and even the suppositions of other uninspired writers and made them inspired by insisting that what she was seeing and saying was coming directly from God. Time and space will not allow side by side comparisons as has been done in the book The White Lie, but anyone wishing to do so can do so if they are able to obtain the books listed, many of which were listed by the E.G. White Estate as being in Ellen’s own library while she was working with her helpers on her writings for the Church. The names of the authors that Ellen used are listed and where the statements that she copied can be found.

Ellen G. White Authors copied by Ellen White

Testimonies

for the Church

vol. 1:

1855—1868

p. 371: I was shown pp. 494-5

Marsh p. 90: Our Fathers House

Wiley . pp . 29—33

U. Smith, Prophetess of Health p. 112

vol. 2:

1868—1871

What the Lord has shown me. pp 60—67, 96 Look to Jesus p. 123

I have been shown, p. 347

p. 362, On Health

pp.364,384

The Lord has given me a view of some of the corruption pp 391,403

409, 486

Cole, Philosophy of Health p.60-

Marsh, home life, pp. 210,607

Cole, pp. 266,267

Miller, the cause of exhausted vitality pg. 114

Cole, pg. 538

Miller pp. 39, 43, 110, 114, 350

vol. 3:

1872—1875

In the view given me pp. 68—72

pp. 138—142

I was shown that God had laid upon . . . me

pp. 258—259

pp. 273—274, Elijah

pp. 333—4

pp. 368—370

pp. 487,562—5

Cole, The Health Reformer 9—144

Horace Mann, Cole, How to Live, pg. 135

Marsh, Night Scenes pp. 68-70

Marsh, Night Scenes pp. 200,334,339

pp. 49—50 Mirror of the Soul, 1835

Marsh, Night Scenes, pp. 58-62

Cole, pp 79, 104

vol. 4:

1876—1881

p. 60 Biographies

pp 144-148 Obedience

pp.163,253

pp.280—2, Spirit of the Lord

p. 374

p. 409

p. 444

p. 480

p. 543

p. 594

Melville, Sermons by Melville ii 3-5

Cole p. 127

Marsh, Night Scenes pp 47—9,203, 60—62, 242, 98, 45—60

Gardener, Ministry of Healing, 1892

Marsh, Walks, pp. 313—4

Melville, pg 95

Marsh, Night Scenes, 98,99, 101

Harris, pp 150—60

Marsh, our fathers house pp 190-1

Melville, last prophecy

vol. 5:

1882— 1889

pp. 68—70 I was told

pp. 118—121

p. 133

pp. 154—156

pp. 204—206

pp. 266—268, 270

p. 314

p. 467

pp. 512—516

p. 686

p. 704

p. 707

pp. 735—736

p. 737

Marsh, Night Scenes, pp. 201—204

Melville, pp. 163—168

Marsh, Night Scenes p 263

Harris, pp. 150—156

Harris, pp. 19,30,45, 48.

Harris, pp. 9,98

Miller, p. 27

Marsh, Walks, p. 133

Marsh, Night Scenes, p. 352 Secrets pp. 68—69

Melville, p. 190

Harris, p. 9

Melville, p. 369

Melville, p. 68, 83

Harris, pp 113—117

vol. 6:

1990-1

pp. 58—60 He said

p. 91

pp. 185— 186

p. 340

pp. 349—5 1

pp. 363—4

Harris, pp. 17, 20 xiv

Harris, The Great Teacher, pp. 151—160

Melville, Sermons vol; 2, p. 42

Marsh, Our Fathers House, p. 104

Andrews, J. N., History of the Sabbath, 22-pp. 105—108

Harris, pp. 105-108

vol. 7:

1902

p. 16 The Church

p. 148

p. 159

p. 276

Harris, p. 160

Harris, p. 71

Harris, p. 125

Harris, p. 318

vol. 8:

1904

p. 15

p. 21

pp 177-8

p. 201

pp 259-60

pp 309—310

Harris, p. 32

Harris, p. 27

Harris, pp. 107—8

Harris, p. 112

Melville. pp. 42—45

Andrews, J.N., History of the Sabbath

Harris, pp. 51, 278, 294

vol. 9:

1909

pp. 50-51

p. 97

p. 256

Melville, pp. 192—199—200

Harris, p. 64

Marsh, p. 16,134

In this study we have shown examples of how all through the years of writing for the Testimonies for the Church from vol. 1 through 9, from the years 1855 to 1909, Ellen White was using the thoughts, words and structure of other writers for her ‘I was shown’. From the beginning with the ‘vision’ of William Foy to the end of her life she used the ‘inspiration’ of others to promote Adventism and her concept of its life style that was necessary’ to please her God.

Ellen White

Copied from…

Saul of Tarsus, ... bore a leading part in the discussions which here took place. .this is evident from the fact that he was appointed to an important ecclesiastical and political office immediately afterwards.

E. G. White. pp. 38—72

Saul was also present, and took a leading part against Stephen . . . after the death of Stephen, he was elected a member of the Sanhedrim council, in consideration of the part he had acted on that occasion. Conybeare & Howson pp 9-20

An overruling providence permitted the apostle to be delayed.

E.G.W. 194—206

It was doubtless overruled for good that it should be so,

C. & H. 585—619

Thrilling were the memories that they recalled of the days when the light which shone upon the face of Stephen upturned to heaven as he suffered martyrdom.

E.G.W. p. 204

There must have flourished up in their minds many a touching reminiscence of the days when the light of heaven, which had once shone on the face of Stephen upturned to heaven in the agony of martyrdom.

Farrar, pp. 519-20

The memory of that scene, and of his own efforts, to secure the condemnation of the servant of Christ, came vividly before his mind.

E.G.W. pp. 214—234

That moment could hardly be forgotten by him, but he looked steadily at his inquisitors.

Conybeare & Howson pp. 621—652

These words were not an outburst of passion. Under the influence of the Holy Spirit Paul uttered a prophetic denunciation similar to that which Christ had uttered in rebuking the hypocrisy of the Jews. The judgment pronounced by the apostle was terribly fulfilled when the iniquitous and hypocritical high priest was murdered by assassins in the Jewish war. But the bystanders regarded the words of Paul as profane, and exclaimed with horror...

Ellen G. White. pp. 214—234

If we consider these words as an out­burst of natural indignation, we cannot severely blame them... If we regard them as a prophetic denunciation they were terribly fulfilled when this hypocritical president of the Sanhedrin was murdered by the assassins in the Jewish war.

Conybeare & Howson pp. 621—652

Here Julius, the centurion who had listened to the apostle’s address before Agrippa.

Ellen G. White pp. 262—271

And Julius who can hardly have been absent from the brilliant throng who had listened to Paul’s address before Agrippa.

Farrar pp. 562—573

Conclusion

Thus over and over again, hundreds of times in all her writings she took the speculations, assumptions, and even the fantasies of other writers she was copying and made them absolutes, and in some cases, by her own testimony, the words of the holy Spirit. It seems a deliberate attempt to use the works and words and ideas of others to make those that read her believe that Ellen was carried back in time and was able to read the mind and thoughts and intents of each situation and then interpret for God the times and events of those events she was describing. She does not, as some have tried to argue, follow the thoughts of scripture narrative, but is totally projecting the speculations of others as the thoughts of God.

There are hundreds of other pages that could be given, each with its copy work from other authors, never giving credit to anyone but God and I was shown. An interesting aside can be found in vol. 2 of the Testimonies, p. 116, where Ellen said of her thoughts from a ‘vision’ ‘I was deeply impressed’. And again in the same volume p. 565, ‘Yesterday I had some time for reflection and now have a few thoughts that I wish to present to you.’ Had words such as these been given in the place of I was shown, Ellen White would not have reached the statue of infallibility that her writings did, nor would she have been canonized as we have done! Every sincere priest, every honest prophet, every devout pastor, when they have spoken or written, have believed homiletically, they were delivering God’s message, through them by all their 'I was shown' no matter how or where they got their ‘inspiration.’ Most congregations recognize that a person was speaking in the name of God, not God speaking in the name of a person. What a difference it could have made in Adventism, if we had accepted the same wisdom.

A careful or even casual observation of history will convince any honest researcher that it is made up of the records of people, nations, tribes, or families that have ‘borrowed’ or ‘stole’ without returning or giving credit, someone else's, ideas, words, possessions or goods and land, and then they have claimed throughout all future time that they didn’t do it and have died defending their lies. But only a few have been able to survive, some with great respect and following, by claiming that God either helped them do what they did or at least told them how and where to do it. And why is this done in humanity? The reason is also very clear. We want to possess or control those around us and what better way to do this than to make God our partner and ally. Thus, we have the history of politics and religion since the beginning of time.

[Stan]

Many of the those items have been dealt with in another area.

[Gail]

She did not overstep any legal boundaries of her day.

She was very well read. Because she had such an extensive library, how do you think she would know which things to discard and which were true- especially in the field of medicine and education?

[John317]

Everything that you've posted here by Walter Rea has been widely discussed and very well dealt with in quite a few books over the years. It's also been dealt with extensively on various boards here on Club Adventist and AdventistForum. I'd like to suggest a study of the books, The Voice of the Spirit, by Dr. Juan Carlos Viera, Messenger of the Lord, by Herbert Douglass, and More Than a Prophet, by Graeme S. Bradford.

[Stan]

Walter Rea, was a strong supporter of the EGW, in an rather conservative way, then when he was one of the many cutbacks in the Southern California Conference he got extremely bitter, as many have. There is a rest of the story.. but that i not up to me..

[Woody]

Hate to get on the band wagon .... BUT

I see little significance in your post Truthseeker. Most of this is all well known and yet many support her. If God inspired her with the words of others ... I don't see the big deal. But the bottom line is that you personally need to decide if what she is saying goes along with scripture.

Ellen White is not what is important. The Bible is. SO, don't waste a lot of time trying to determine if she is right or not. Let the Bible be your guide. Hmmm. Sounds like something she might say!!

[John317]

I agree with your point here that we should study Mrs. White's writings for ourselves.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to gain our primary or first knowledge of someone by studying what their detractors or critics say about them.

One of the problems in relationship to Ellen White has been the tendency of many people to depend on others to give them their view of her and her writings. In the early 20th century, some leaders who believed they were helping Ellen White portrayed her writings in ways that in the long run actually did her damage because they gave people unrealistic views of her gift and of how she wrote her books. For instance, some of these men taught that Ellen White's very words were inspired directly from God. Ellen White herself never taught this. It was widely known in her own day that she frequently made use of other people's writings. This is not new information. What was new and shocking for many SDAs, however, was the extent of her use of other writers. But she never tried to hide the fact that she read and used those books. After all, she recommended that people read the same books that she sometimes used in her writings.

[John317]

...Ellen White is not what is important. The Bible is. SO, don't waste a lot of time trying to determine if she is right or not. Let the Bible be your guide. Hmmm. Sounds like something she might say!!

While Ellen White certainly would say let the Bible be your guide, she wouldn't say it is irrelevant or unimportant what Seventh-day Adventists believe about her writings. I don't believe that it is a "waste of time" for people to study to see if she is a true or false prophet. These are issues and questions that it's important for us to decide for ourselves individually and personally through study, reflection, and prayer. Of course we can't possibly hope to do that unless we're willing to read her books with an open mind. But it is also true that we don't have to feel it is necessary to settle all questions immediately. There will always be unsettled questions for everyone.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Ohh boy i am all messed up now in my search for truth. I am tired of life, but i have to keep on fighting. I have come from far and i won t give up till i die. Even if it is necessary to start a new church that keeps the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus, i would begin to build it. One of the SDA fundamentals is that i have to believe that Ellen is inspired by God, whereas i think it is very well possible for her of being (unknowing to herself) a false prophet. What should i do? I want to worship God on the way he wants to be worshipped, but i don t know where to go? Sometimes i go to church on my own, my parents hate it and want me to enjoy life, but i cannot enjoy life without Christ walking next to me. I don t know how, but the people i see at church, some of them come to me saying that if i want to talk to them, i can talk to them. I haven t had a conversation for months, i have developed a mind that doesn t think in words, but just knows many complicated things. I feel and am so unworthy to be loved by Jesus. Not so long ago i was addicted to porn so i could escape loneliness. I was even able to visit a prostitute or something like that. It s like a drug, that helps me when i am alone. Now i am thinking about buying a fleshlight (a fake vagina), watch 1000s of pics from shakira etc. That would keep me busy for a while, but it ignores my problems. My biggest problem is that i don t know that God has some angel send to me to let me know i don t have to go through this all alone. A couple of days ago i was talkin to a girl who had a bad past with an alcoholic dad who beat her etc. I said to her, some things about Jesus and why there is evil and that kind of stuff. She said she felt like she is on fire and had to cry a lot. I thought to myself, maybe it is the holy spirit at work. Wouldn t it be great if God would assist all of my plans with the power of the holy spirit? Why don t i have the assurance that God loves me. I beg every night and i keep begging but i have stopped hoping for better days. God will never give me visions or clearity i geuss. Sometimes i think that Jesus blood is like money to him so he can buy the people he want. Maybe he thinks i am stupid, i know i am stupid, but i was born like this, and if i wasn t he should help me change.

anyway can anyone tell me why Ellen has an obelisk on her grave?

http://www.nonegw.org/obelisk.shtml

[Gail]

Truthseeker, here is a Scripture promise for you. I know one lady for whom this one verse changed her whole life:

Quote:

John 7:17-

"If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."

What it is saying is, that God promises to bring you the true doctrine; that is, that you will KNOW which way to go. Keep wanting to do His will and you will get your clearer picture.

May you be in peace!

[John317]

Quote:

... One of the SDA fundamentals is that i have to believe that Ellen is inspired by God...

It is true that one of the official teachings of the SDA church is that the gift of prophecy was active in the ministry of Ellen G. White, yet it is not true that you "have to believe" she was inspired by God. The only basis for belief in this is by personally being convinced of it through study and prayer, and of course, this does not happen overnight. The church doesn't want you to think of it in terms of something you have to believe. That is one of the main reasons acceptance of Ellen White's writings is not a test of fellowship in the SDA church.

My own opinion is that it is OK for you to have these questions about Ellen White, as long as you are studying the Bible and Ellen White's writings with a sincere desire to find the answers to those questions.

On the other hand, if you are finding that these questions about Ellen White are distracting you or preventing you from placing faith in Christ or from experiencing the peace of God, perhaps you might consider laying the whole issue aside for a while. There is no need to feel that you must settle all questions at once. Lay some of them on the back burner and just trust that God will lead you to fuller truth on these questions. Concentrate on the simple, practical truths of the Gospels, such as those that Christ taught in the parables.

[jasd]

>>I don't think it's ever a good idea to gain our primary or first knowledge of someone by studying what their detractors or critics say about them.<<

Then again, were one to travel a road less traveled – one might wish for a guide of sorts – to point out or warn of pitfalls. What a lot of grief

might be spared!

I am put to mind the difficulty a thorough study of EGW entails as... Holy Writ contains less than 800, 000 words; whereas, [i’m apprised] that the ‘writings’ approximate 30,000,000 (as in millions!). To study that many words of any belief system is

beyond the ability of most and may prove to be hugely distracting – requiring ‘pathfinders’ to meaningfully condense. That sort of prolixity borders irrelevance – as witness: the difficulty expositing the ‘mere’ 800,000 words of Holy Writ.

The argument exists that Writ, itself, suffices. Were that so, one may find it most rewarding to stay within the Bible or that most closely paralleling or expositing it – for doctrines. ExtraBiblical purports are simply that; that is, extraBiblical and ought to be taken as

dogma.

>>There is no need to feel that you must settle all questions at once. Lay some of them on the back burner and just trust that God will lead you to fuller truth on these questions. Concentrate on the simple, practical truths of the Gospels, such as those that Christ taught in the parables.<<

Well said.

[Stan]

TruthSeeker...

Just a recomendation, that for the next few weeks spend time with the Word, especially the Book of John and other Gospels.

Not to work about EGW or reading those who have no respect for her, or those who have little respect for anything.

Spend time with the Word, and go forward on your Knees.

[John317]

I can see your points here. I am not saying some of those books should never be read; only that they are not for everyone at just any point in a person's Christian experience. It is a bit like reading all the criticism of the Bible before one reads the Bible or while one is just becoming acquainted with Christ. It would be like someone who doesn't know you reading everything your worst enemy has to say about you, lies and all-- before they have even had a chance to meet you for themselves. I am just saying people should first read her for themselves and form their own impressions before they start reading all the things written against her.

I do the same when it comes to Joseph Smith, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muhammad and other religions. I don't spend a lot of time reading material written against them. It's just not the fairest and best way to learn about them.

[jasd]

>>I am not saying some of those books should never be read; only that they are not for everyone at just any point in a person's Christian experience.<< [ed.jasd]

Of course. I agree. One, perhaps, ought to strive to become well-grounded as much as well-versed in the genre before seeking to critique commentaries or peripheral literature.

>>It is a bit like reading all the criticism of the Bible before one reads the Bible or while one is just becoming acquainted with Christ.<<

Upon this point I would expand: a chain is no stronger than its weakest link, one ought to be apprised of that (or those) link(s). The same might be said of a collection of dogmas and/or doctrines – ‘fundamentals’, if you will.

I haven’t followed this thread diligently, but have seen enough to ascertain that truthseeker007 is well counseled. Reading truthseeker007’s posts, one suspects that he or she has the acuity to not take EGW’s detractors without a grain of salt and credit no more than due. Moreover, he or she, as well the rest of us, might do well to remember that St Peter was a hairy-backed lowbrow – at times – yet, Jesus Christ seems to have entrusted inordinate responsibilities to him. He was a

truthseeker, also.

>>It would be like someone who doesn't know you reading everything your worst enemy has to say about you, lies and all-- before they have even had a chance to meet you for themselves.<<

I don’t know that we can characterize such as Rea et al, as “worst enemies”. That said, what an opportunity to set that worst enemy correct, once met, yes?

>>I am just saying people should first read her for themselves and form their own impressions before they start reading all the things written against her.<<

Exactly, except 30,000,000 words? There ought to be a judicial condensation of the entirety of her work; not simply the recommended this or that. Her Testimonies require a bit of

balm in their reading, for instance.

>>I do the same when it comes to Joseph Smith, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muhammad and other religions.<<

It takes very small things to furnish my criticisms. Joseph Smith flim-flamming ‘investors; looking for treasure by searching for white salamanders; etc. Jehovah’s Witnesses repeatedly date-setting events without authority; the Greek sans-or-not the article; etc. Muhammad taking a little child to wife (unclear whether or not consummation of the ‘taking’ occurred); the legendary story-telling that comprises much of the Qur’an...; ect.

>>I don't spend a lot of time reading material written against them. It's just not the fairest and best way to learn about them.<<

I don’t imagine that, this side of heaven, I could do justice to the study of this or that of the World’s religions. I confess that

I’m more a ‘hit the bone’ sorta guy. I want to see the weakest link in the chain – right up front – and if it is not that ‘suspect’, I’ll build, depending upon that chain.

All the above aside, truthseeker007 is again, well-advised to pursue his quest with a study of the life and works of the very One who redeems him; that is, Jesus Christ as portrayed in the Gospels.

[bustedknuckle]

I for one believe Ellen White was inspired by GOD and her writings help me to understand better things of the Bible. The evidence is clear in my mind. She had a 3rd grade education yet became the most published author of all time. I don't think that happened by accident. She had thousands of documented visions many were witnessed by medical doctors and people trying to disprove her. My own testimony of how I came to the SDA church coupled by the insights into the Bible and Christ gained by reading Mrs. White's writings added to my own experiences since joining the church have cemeted the truth in my mind. I don't care what anyone else says in their websites or their forums. Like someone said before if they can't understand the basic concepts of death, or the sabbath then how can you expect them to understand the heavier concepts?

[jasd]

>>Like someone said before if they can't understand the basic concepts of death, or the sabbath then how can you expect them to understand the heavier concepts?<<

The post proffered is, as New Testamentally required; that is, Testimonial. It is well done. That aside,

I don’t know that this thread is the proper format to advance “the basic concepts of death, or the sabbath”, but, perhaps you’ll find the particular format most suitable to do just that. I am looking forward to your posting of your ideas as to the concepts of death, Sabbath, and “heavier concepts”.

I am certain that “heavier concepts” will be most intriguing.

[LifeHiscost]

But she never tried to hide the fact that she read and used those books. After all, she recommended that people read the same books that she sometimes used in her writings.

"That which has been is that which will be,And that which has been done is that which will be done.So there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9 NASB

It's very difficult to get anything totally original.

Regards!

[bustedknuckle]

The type of person that promotes these websites or forums, take her words out of context or completely misrepresent the meaning or what she wrote. They believe that they are doing GOD's work by saving people from something they themselves don't believe in, the fact that they lie or misrepresent her writings is just a means to an end. Their hearts aren't open the truth because in their arogance they wouldn't want to admit that they were wrong or that maybe GOD works in ways they never planned. Ellen White is not a point of salvaton but they miss a great blessing of understanding the scriptures deeper, health and social counsel given by GOD thru his servant Mrs. White. I had come to the understanding of the importance of the Sabbath long before I ever read the Great Controversy but when I read that book it cemeted it in my mind and I found the SDA church and my journey began. It was funny, I never knew who E.G. White was when I was reading the book I used to think this guy knows what he's talking about. In my ignorance I assumed the author was male. I never knew what an SDA was either. I was talking to my Dad about my convictions of the Sabbath and he told me to call up the SDA church. He is a lifelong Southern Baptist. The evidence of my life experiences testifies to GOD's personal love and involvement with me. I would be a fool to ignore the evidence. Mrs. White's writings are part of that experience that points me to Christ and his love for me.

[Woody]

Quote:

"the fact that they lie or misrepresent her writings is just a means to an end. Their hearts aren't open the truth because in their arogance they wouldn't want to admit that they were wrong"

I would not be so quick to judge them with condemnations such as this. I know some of the foremost Anti-SDA crowd as I have articulated here before. And I find them quite the opposite. I find that they are sincere and dedicated to GOD. Their hearts are in fact quite open and that is why they are where they are. Rather than "arrogant" I find them quite humble in their search. But what you may say you observe as "arrogance" may just be sincere hurt by the church. That does happen. They are firm and vocal about the hurt they have experienced.

My take is that they have a true beef with the church. They have been taught the wrong message of truth and that is what they are rejecting. That has driven them to find new teachings. There are legalistic people in our church. And they can be vocal. This is what they are rejecting. I've tried to point out the real SDA message to them. But they have been so hurt they just plain don't believe me.

Lets face it. Our church has two faces. Conservative and Liberal. The church is all about unity and trying to keep both camps in check. So, the official wording of our beliefs etc ... always have to try to make both camps happy. So, you can interpret our beliefs in either way that you might lean towards. Watch our President ... His words are always carefully crafted so that both sides are kept as happy as is possible. That is his job.

Anyway ... I happen to disagree with you. I find that the Anti-SDAs are quite sincere but also quite hurt. I do not find that they 'lie'.

[Gail]

To add to knucklebuster's point:

In our ABC we used to carry videos by a group who puts out material which they have designed to "inform" people about certain groups like Freemasons, Mormons, JWs, etc.

When they came out with one about Seventh-Day Adventists and I looked at the promotional material, I quickly realised that wow- were THEY misinformed!

When their rep called me about this video, I told her that I had read the promo material and found inaccuracies there, she replied that there had been many complaints about this video (being inaccurate).

I wondered that if this group had such mistaken viewpoints about Adventists, how much could I believe of their analyses of other groups? It just seemed like hate-mongering to me.

We stopped carrying their material. I believe that it would not insult the intelligence of most people if they could investigate for themselves.