Obama's Socialist Connections

[carolaa]

You have to remember, carol, that when Republicans talk about 'less government', they mean less government provision of services like health care, welfare and education, but more government intrusion in things like reproduction and relationships.

[carolaa]

Agreed - but if America's enjoyment of its blessings *causes* those kinds of hardships for those elsewhere in the world? What then?

Yes, it's disgraceful what we are doing to other countries, such as Haiti.

[there buster]

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government intrusion in things like reproduction and relationships.

False, and quite sad. I expect more from Bravus than false canards.

No one is proposing to intrude into reproduction. You must be referring to the gentle art of "terminating pregnancy," which, by definition, takes place after reproduction has already occurred.

Odd, how the left always uses Newspeak to conceal the true action. "Planned Parenthood" spends most of its time trying to prevent parenthood altogether, and 'reproductive freedom' means the unfettered right to rid oneself of the fruit of reproduction.

Nor is anyone on the right trying to intrude into relationships. On the contrary, it is the left that has subsidized the dissolution of the family, and the left wants to change the definition of the family. Or perhaps it is your position that monogamy is part of the 'vast right-wing conspiracy.'

[Bravus]

Defining the terms the way you want them to be (in a way different to mainstream English usage), then accusing anyone using them differently of falsehood... Sorry, impossible to debate rationally under those circumstances.

[there buster]

Let's look at the actual definition:

reproduction: n.

1. The act of reproducing or the condition or process of being reproduced.

2. Something reproduced, especially in the faithfulness of its resemblance to the form and elements of the original: a fine reproduction of a painting by Matisse.

3. Biology. The sexual or asexual process by which organisms generate new individuals of the same kind; procreation.

That's the definition I was using. There are no efforts I am aware of by "Republicans" to use your designation, to interfere with "the sexual. . .process by which organisms generate new individuals of the same kind."

What kind of reproduction were you talking about?

And relationship:

re·la·tion·ship n.

1. The condition or fact of being related; connection or association.

2. Connection by blood or marriage; kinship.

3. A particular type of connection existing between people related to or having dealings with each other: has a close relationship with his siblings.

What sort of "intrusion"("An inappropriate or unwelcome addition.") into relationships are you talking about?

Defining "reproduction" as "ending reproduction" and "intrusion into relationships" as "leaving traditional marriage alone" is not rational.

[olger]

Ichabod is right. Deviancy is the contemporary defining point of the liberal disorder.

oG

[Dr. Shane]

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but if America's enjoyment of its blessings *causes* those kinds of hardships for those elsewhere in the world?

That is a very big hypothetical "if". America's wealth does not come at the expense of the rest of the world. In fact, as America is exporting industry it is raising the standard of living in other nations where the industry is being located. Most poverty stricken nations are poor because oppressive governments and bad economic systems.

[Neil D]

Quote:

government intrusion in things like reproduction and relationships.

False, and quite sad. I expect more from Bravus than false canards.

No one is proposing to intrude into reproduction. You must be referring to the gentle art of "terminating pregnancy," which, by definition, takes place after reproduction has already occurred.

[Dr. Shane]

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I wasn't aware that it is the Left that is demanding that our women become baby making machines once the sex act has been performed.

God did that. Adam knew Eve and out came Able.

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And reproductive freedom means that a parent has a choice in keeping the child or aborting it.

That is what the liberal left believes reproductive freedom is. The opposing view is that reproductive freedom is the right to use birth control. Mexico, for example, has ban abortion but allows birth control and thus they consider themselves as allowing reproductive freedom.

[Neil D]

Quote:

but if America's enjoyment of its blessings *causes* those kinds of hardships for those elsewhere in the world?

That is a very big hypothetical "if". America's wealth does not come at the expense of the rest of the world. In fact, as America is exporting industry it is raising the standard of living in other nations where the industry is being located. Most poverty stricken nations are poor because oppressive governments and bad economic systems.

Hmmmmmmm.....people in appalachia come to mind, as well as Hati, and any number of S. American countrys, and Mexico and Panama and...Well, this is what Wikipedea says-

Some critics of the World Bank believe that the institution was not started in order to reduce poverty but rather to support United States' business interests, and argue that the bank has actually increased poverty and been detrimental to the environment, public health, and cultural diversity.[6] Some critics also claim that the World Bank has consistently pushed a "neo-liberal" agenda, imposing policies on developing countries which have been damaging, destructive and anti-developmental.[7][8] Some intellectuals in developing countries have argued that the World Bank is deeply implicated in contemporary modes of donor and NGO driven imperialism and that its intellectual output functions to blame the poor for their condition.[9]

It has also been suggested that the World Bank is an instrument for the promotion of U.S. or Western interests in certain regions of the world. Consequently, seven South American nations have established the Bank of the South in order to minimize U.S. influence in the region.[10] Criticisms of the structure of the World Bank refer to the fact that the President of the Bank is always an American, nominated by the President of the United States (though subject to the approval of the other member countries). There have been accusations that the decision-making structure is undemocratic, as the U.S. effectively has a veto on some constitutional decisions with just over 16% of the shares in the bank;[11] moreover, decisions can only be passed with votes from countries whose shares total more than 85% of the bank's shares.[12] A further criticism concerns internal governance and the manner in which the World Bank is alleged to lack transparency to external publics.[13]

...and we all KNOW that these are just suppositions...

[Bravus]

Let me just add that when I said 'reproduction' I wasn't only, or primarily, thinking about abortion (which, for the record, I believe is wrong when used for contraception and should be strongly discouraged but not made illegal - a very strong difference I have with many on the left who seem to feel it needs to be promoted). I was also thinking about abstinence-only (as opposed to abstinence-ideal) sex education that tends to lead to many more unwanted pregnancies.

Reproduction and relationships are not the only areas in which Republicans *love* big government, of course. Massive military spending is A-OK with them, and they're also big fans of high levels of surveillance.

[Dr. Shane]

Yea, I wouldn't give too much credence to that. I live 12 miles from Mexico and know the jobs at American and Japanese factories there are the best jobs in the communities. I also have family in El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama and know the same is true there. One of the reasons the economies of China and India are booming is because of foreign investment. Don't listen to the nay-sayers. The west is helping the developing countries, not taking advantage of them. By investing there we are spreading the wealth rather than keeping it all at home.

[Dr. Shane]

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Reproduction and relationships are not the only areas in which Republicans *love* big government

Republicans and Democrats do both love big government. They just disagree about which areas should be big. That said, President Bush dramatically increased entitlement programs like food stamps and medicare so it is hardly fair to say Republicans do not support big government in such areas.

Libertarians are the ones that truly want limited government. They favor eliminating all military bases outside of the US. They favor legalizing drugs. They favor eliminating income tax and the Department of Education.

[there buster]

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Excuse me, but I wasn't aware that it is the Left that is demanding that our women become baby making machines once the sex act has been performed.

As Barack Obama said, "I don't want my daughters punished with a baby."

No one is demanding such things. Straw man.

Quote:

And reproductive freedom means that a parent has a choice in keeping the child or aborting it.

"Reproductive freedom" on its face means the freedom to reproduce.

Orwell would be quite familiar with the notion that "reproductive freedom" -- freedom to reproduce-- can be morphed into "freedom to abort." It's right out of 1984. "War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength." Now we can add "abortion is reproduction."

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But I would point out, that by outlawing them, you are not preventing them. They will still exist, although not in legal form.

Another excursion. Now "Not giving legal recognition" is "outlawing." It's truly amazing. I'll have to tell the local little league that since they have not been given legal recognition by the city, they're actually outlawed. They'll take it hard.

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And what you are insisting

The only thing I'm insisting, so far, is that words and laws aren't silly putty, which can be molded into anything a person desires. As Orwell understood, the destruction of language results in the destruction of thought.

[Neil D]

Quote:

I wasn't aware that it is the Left that is demanding that our women become baby making machines once the sex act has been performed.

God did that. Adam knew Eve and out came Able.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Excuse me, but I wasn't aware that it is the Left that is demanding that our women become baby making machines once the sex act has been performed.

As Barack Obama said, "I don't want my daughters punished with a baby."

No one is demanding such things. Straw man.

[Bravus]

Shane said:

Quote:

Republicans and Democrats do both love big government. They just disagree about which areas should be big.

You're exactly correct (I've always said you're an uncommonly clear political thinker!) The difference is the continuous rhetoric, well displayed in this thread, wherein Republicans say 'a vote for the Democrats is a vote for big government, and Americans don't want big government'.

[there buster]

I don't like big government, period. Like the founding fathers, I see government as a necessary evil. It is necessary, but as James Madison said, "If men were angels, there would be no need for government."

But I'm not a libertarian, either, because libertarianism usually ends up as sort of political solipcism. It's impractical. The state is necessary, but it must be restrained. However, the fanciful claims of unrestrained surveillance don't persuade or frighten me.

I'm not a socialist, because, secular though it claims to be, socialism deifies the state. "Praise the state from whom all blessings flow."

We Adventists spend so much time fearing that a church will take over the functions of the state, that we have become blind to the state taking over the functions of the church.

If I were the alarmist sort, I'd find all this cultish fervor surrounding Obama -- and even Democrats have noticed it -- frightening. But I'm not and I don't.

Former Sen. Bob Kerry said of Bill Clinton, "He's an exceptionally good liar. Exceptionally good." Obama's not that good. Kinda like the Wizard of Oz. Obama's not a bad man, he's just a very bad wizard. For now, true believers are ignoring the little man behind the curtain of rhetoric. But eventually, like the wizard, they'll discover his conveyance is fueled only by hot air.

[Bravus]

Politics is a matter of relative rather than absolute merit, for me. No matter who you vote for, a politician gets in. And no politician is perfect (heck, politicians are a subclass of humans, none of whom are perfect, that is selected by the desire for power). So - unlike many Democrats, who I agree with you, ichabod, have at least canonised if not deified Obama - I don't think he's a god among men. I think he's a man among men. But does he scare me and worry me much less than McCain? Yes. Do his policies seem to me to be much better thought out and much more humane than McCain's? Yes. Do I believe that he will lead America to be a better, more positive, more productive country than McCain will? Yes. And those things are what the vote is about, even more than it's about some nebulous idea of 'character' (that most often boils down to 'being like me').

[there buster]

Quote:

Politics is a matter of relative rather than absolute merit, for me.

I quite agree.

As you may know, I was instrumental in changing a law in my home state. Went through the entire process, including drafting implementing regulations. Politics is the art of the possible. Bixmarck said people don't want to know how their laws or sausages are made. I can tell you from the inside, it's not a pretty process.

And I'm far, far from a McCain fan. If you saw the movie "Master and Commander," I will probably end up voting for "the lesser of two weevils."

But I strongly disagree about character. It's not so nebulous or subjective as you think. In the end, character is everything, because the challenges of the future are unknowable.

Kinda like Obama's friends.

[Fausto]

Come to America ... that is IF you can get in. (Legally I mean.)

[carolaa]

Most poverty stricken nations are poor because oppressive governments and bad economic systems.

And they are oppressive and bad because WE have made them that way. Read the Economic Hit Man. Even now we are forcing South Korea to buy our beef even though they don't want it. Haiti is impoverished because we have put them in that position. The list goes on and on.

[carolaa]

[quote name='Shane The opposing view is that reproductive freedom is the right to use birth control. Mexico' date=' for example, has ban abortion but allows birth control and thus they consider themselves as allowing reproductive freedom.

[/quote']

What about rape and incest? Not much freedom there.

[carolaa]

Yea, I wouldn't give too much credence to that. I live 12 miles from Mexico and know the jobs at American and Japanese factories there are the best jobs in the communities. I also have family in El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama and know the same is true there. One of the reasons the economies of China and India are booming is because of foreign investment. Don't listen to the nay-sayers. The west is helping the developing countries, not taking advantage of them. By investing there we are spreading the wealth rather than keeping it all at home.

True investment in a community is one thing. I don't think that's what critics of the World Bank are talking about. I think they are talking about strong-arm tactics to remove democratically elected leaders or to encourage trade agreements, etc., that are in OUR best interest, not theirs.

[carolaa]

Republicans and Democrats do both love big government. They just disagree about which areas should be big.

LOL - that is SO true. The Republicans talk like they want less government, yet money is no object when they want something.