Robert Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Yes, He did die for each one of us. This isn't the gospel Christ commissioned the church to spread! What you are teaching is "another gospel" (although God accepts us in our ignorance). You see Christ didn't die instead of the sinner. Paul is clear - "When One died all died"! Christ's death was not one man dying for all men, but all men dying in Christ. When Christ died ALL mankind was legally justified in Him. That's universal. The way I understand it is that Christ's death as reversed our condemnation in Adam. Therefore I believe that all babies (although sinners) are born under grace (EGW eludes to this). At the age of accountability the HS will convict them of their need of Christ. The HS does this through various means, but the best is the preaching of the gospel. However many have never heard the gospel (and will never hear it). To these billions the HS works through nature...through conscience, etc. [see Romans chapter 1] When conviction comes that person then as the choice whether to reject God's gift or keep it. Rob Quote
Robert Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Some one wrote that little babies will be carried by angels to their mother's arms at the resurrection. do you believe that? mel -PC- YI -PT- The Youth's Instructor -DT- 04-01-58 -AT- Bereavement -PR- 03 As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Quote: There are conditions to salvation. A condition is the placing of one's full confidence in Christ and accepting Him as one's personal Savior and Lord. Quote: There will be people lost who claimed they wanted to be saved, but they did not put their claims into practice. There is such a thing as false faith-- it is called presumption. It is claiming salvation without fulfilling the conditions. Maybe you could explain further what you mean by these words such as FULL confidence etc. What does that mean to you personally? What are the conditions that you see? What claims must be put into practice? Sure. By "full confidence," I'm referring to what the Bible means when it speaks of saving faith. It's a complete rather than a partial trust in God. Such trust leads to obedience to God. It takes God at His word and is based on Bible promises. It leads to conformity to God's law. It does not cause us to "draw back to destruction," but to "believe to the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10: 39). It cannot exist without corresponding works. It is not a mere claim. It may be compared to a man's putting his full weight on a rope dangling high above the ground. He won't do that if he does not have full confidence that the rope will hold him. The Bible tells us plainly what the conditions are of salvation. "Whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." What does the Bible mean by belief? It means the same as saving faith. It means having full confidence and trust in Him. It does not mean an intellectual belief merely. It's a practical faith, something we do and that affects my very life, and is not something I merely talk about. It means a living faith, the sort of faith that leads to obedience, the very same kind of faith that Paul speaks of in Romans 1:5 and 16: 26. The claim to believe in Christ must be put into actual practice. See James 2: 14-26 and 1 John 1, 2, 3, 5. If I really believe it as I claim to, my life will show it and people will know by my life and actions whether I'm a Christian. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 By "full confidence," I'm referring to what the Bible means when it speaks of saving faith. It's a complete rather than a partial trust in God. Such trust leads to obedience to God. It takes God at His word and is based on Bible promises. It leads to conformity to God's law. One word: Legalism! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Quote: Some one wrote that little babies will be carried by angels to their mother's arms at the resurrection. do you believe that? mel Yes, Ellen G. White wrote that. Do you believe everything Ellen White wrote? And what do you take her words there to mean? How do you apply them in terms of the urgency and necessity of the proclamation of the gospel? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 By "full confidence," I'm referring to what the Bible means when it speaks of saving faith. It's a complete rather than a partial trust in God. Such trust leads to obedience to God. It takes God at His word and is based on Bible promises. It leads to conformity to God's law. One word: Legalism! James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Rahab was a prostitute. She has sex with men for money, yet she put her life on the line to save the spies because of her faith in God. Her faith was demonstrated in what she did. According to your legalistic teaching she would have never been saved because she was still a prostitute. See where bad theology can take you? Rob Quote
Robert Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Quote: Some one wrote that little babies will be carried by angels to their mother's arms at the resurrection. do you believe that? mel Yes, Ellen G. White wrote that. Do you believe everything Ellen White wrote? No! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty Some one wrote that little babies will be carried by angels to their mother's arms at the resurrection. do you believe that? mel -PC- YI -PT- The Youth's Instructor -DT- 04-01-58 -AT- Bereavement -PR- 03 As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads. Do you believe in universal salvation? Do you believe that all will ultimately be saved in God's kingdom? That is the real issue here on this thread. Do you believe everything else that Ellen White says regarding salvation? Why select these particular words? Why not the following as well?--- "There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy. The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption. But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. Step To Christ, The Test Of Discipleship. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
cricket Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 The point I am making through all this is that the Bible teaches that one must repent and believe the gospel, put their faith in Christ, and be born again, in order to see the kingdom of God. It is not true that all people will finally repent and be saved. Many will be lost because they did not believe in Christ and accept the gospel. The Bible does not teach universal salvation. We need to be clear about that. I disagree. It is my belief that God's going stick with them through thick and thin...and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait...and wait until ALL come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Quote: Some one wrote that little babies will be carried by angels to their mother's arms at the resurrection. do you believe that? mel Yes, Ellen G. White wrote that. Do you believe everything Ellen White wrote? No! If you take only the Bible as evidence of truth, and insist on the Bible and the Bible only, why should I take your quote of Ellen White seriously in this case? It is a bit disingenuous to say the least. It would be like my calling Marx a liar and a fraud and then turning around and trying to persuade someone of the truth of something by quoting Marx. How much sense does that make? Do I believe what Ellen White wrote about her vision? Yes, I do, but I know that you don't. Ellen White did not mean for her vision of children in heaven to be taken and used to build a theology of salvation. We base our theology of salvation on the Bible and the Bible alone, not on the visions of Ellen White, true as we (as I) believe those to be. So I would ask you, do you believe in universal salvation? --- that is, that everyone will eventually be saved in the kingdom of God? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The point I am making through all this is that the Bible teaches that one must repent and believe the gospel, put their faith in Christ, and be born again, in order to see the kingdom of God. It is not true that all people will finally repent and be saved. Many will be lost because they did not believe in Christ and accept the gospel. The Bible does not teach universal salvation. We need to be clear about that. I disagree. It is my belief that God's going stick with them through thick and thin...and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait...and wait until ALL come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord. That is fine to have a belief about salvation, but is it going to be based on what the Bible teaches or is it going to be personal opinion or wishful thinking? I notice that you do not deal with the texts that speak to this issue. For instance, what do you do with 2 Thess. 1: 7-10? These verses speak plainly of people who will be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again, 2 Thess. 2: 8 speaks of "the lawless one" who will be "consumed" and "destroyed" when Christ returns. How, also, about Malachi 4 and Isaiah 1: 28? The latter plainly says those who forsake the Lord will be "destroyed" and "consumed." It means to be destroyed utterly. The Modern Language Bible reads, "annihilated." Not only does one have to ignore such verses as those in order to maintain universal salvation but one must also jettison nearly everything Ellen White ever wrote on the subject. I find both of those things very troublesome indeed. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 By "full confidence," I'm referring to what the Bible means when it speaks of saving faith. It's a complete rather than a partial trust in God. Such trust leads to obedience to God. It takes God at His word and is based on Bible promises. It leads to conformity to God's law. One word: Legalism! But if you consider that "legalism," then I am joining Ellen White and many others such as Paul and James and Peter and Jesus Himself, who also taught the above. That puts me in some excellent company. Did Jesus and Paul teach a faith which does not lead to obedience to God? Jack Sequeira also teaches that true faith leads to obedience to God, does he not? It certainly does not lead to disobedience. That would be a strange faith indeed that leads us to disobey God, wouldn't you agree? Do you believe that Ellen White's Steps To Christ and Paul's letter to the Romans teach legalism? Both teach exactly what I have said above and which you claim is "legalism." Paul said it over and over, that he proclaimed the gospel in order to bring about the obedience that springs from faith. That is the very kind of obedience-- the very sort of faith and trust-- that God is looking for. See Romans 1: 5 and 16: 26. It is the kind of faith that our father Abraham had. Also the kind Jesus had. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 By "full confidence," I'm referring to what the Bible means when it speaks of saving faith. It's a complete rather than a partial trust in God. Such trust leads to obedience to God. It takes God at His word and is based on Bible promises. It leads to conformity to God's law. One word: Legalism! I think I know what you are saying here Rob. Personally .... I am a 'babe' IN Christ. I will remain a 'babe'. But HE counts me a 'mature'. Praise God. But, I will only become 'mature' when I SEE His Face at the second coming. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... I will be changed. Until then ... I will remain a babe with only "partial trust" which only leads to 'partial conformity to God's word'. When I see His face ... I will then be changed to total conformity. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Fausto Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Quote: I disagree. It is my belief that God's going stick with them through thick and thin...and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait...and wait until ALL come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord. This is a dangerous assumptionoften created by religions that promote the "secret rapture" and the 7 years tribulation, those who wait too long, will simply not make it and be destroyed, as the verse has been quote by John I ain't even going to bother requoting it! Quote: I think I know what you are saying here Rob. Personally .... I am a 'babe' IN Christ. I will remain a 'babe'. But HE counts me a 'mature'. Praise God. But, I will only become 'mature' when I SEE His Face at the second coming. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... I will be changed. Until then ... I will remain a babe with only "partial trust" which only leads to 'partial conformity to God's word'. Yet another mistake, you grow in Christ and become mature as you learn about Him whilst still here on earth, thus it becomes necesary to start understanding greater truths such as the function of the sanctuary, the state of the dead, and why everything revolves around the prophets and the law! What you will inherit when He comes is a new body, an imortal one! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 .... I am a 'babe' IN Christ. I will remain a 'babe'. But HE counts me a 'mature'. Praise God. But, I will only become 'mature' when I SEE His Face at the second coming. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... I will be changed. Until then ... I will remain a babe with only "partial trust" which only leads to 'partial conformity to God's word'. When I see His face ... I will then be changed to total conformity. If you are saying that we will continue to grow in Christ until we see Him face to face, that is certainly true. Until that time, none of us will ever be able to say we have arrived spiritually. We will continue to fall short of God's glorious ideal, and we will continue to need His forgiveness and grace. But nowhere does the Bible say that we should remain "babes" or that we will only become mature when we see Jesus at the Second Coming. See Eph. 4: 11-24; cf. Hebrews 11:40. No parent wants its child to remain a baby all the time. When a child does not grow up mentally or emotionally, we usually call it retarded or mentally challenged. It is definitely not something positive. And so Christ's command in Matt. 5: 48 is that we be "perfect" [mature] in our sphere as God is in His. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Fausto Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Quote: No parent wants its child to remain a baby all the time. When a child does not grow up mentally or emotionally, we usually call it retarded or mentally challenged. It is definitely not something positive. And so Christ's command in Matt. 5: 48 is that we be "perfect" [mature] in our sphere as God is in His. Amen...brother...amen! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 We are ALL saved unless we decide we don't want to be. You don't have to decide to be lost to be lost. We are ALL by nature "children of wrath," Eph 2:3. Salvation comes with the acceptance of the Gift. And that requires a decision. All that one does to be lost is to "neglect such a great salvation," Heb 2:3 that is offered. Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The point I am making through all this is that the Bible teaches that one must repent and believe the gospel, put their faith in Christ, and be born again, in order to see the kingdom of God. It is not true that all people will finally repent and be saved. Many will be lost because they did not believe in Christ and accept the gospel. The Bible does not teach universal salvation. We need to be clear about that. I disagree. It is my belief that God's going stick with them through thick and thin...and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait...and wait until ALL come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord. While it's true that God waits, and waits, and waits some more, the sinner does not have eternity to make that decision. His repentance or lack thereof is sealed forever at the time he dies. So, if a person dies unrepentant, he's LOST! If you think otherwise, let's see your Biblical reasons for believing so. Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Quote: Some one wrote that little babies will be carried by angels to their mother's arms at the resurrection. do you believe that? mel Yes, Ellen G. White wrote that. Do you believe everything Ellen White wrote? No! Then stop quoting someone you don't believe has no authority!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 Why don't you lay out your biblical reasons why in the end no one is lost and that everyone will be saved? I am inviting you to do so. Gerry Quote
Woody Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood We are ALL saved unless we decide we don't want to be. You don't have to decide to be lost to be lost. We are ALL by nature "children of wrath," Eph 2:3. Salvation comes with the acceptance of the Gift. And that requires a decision. All that one does to be lost is to "neglect such a great salvation," Heb 2:3 that is offered. Gerry Good Post. I think I agree with this one and coming from Gerry ... that is sayin somethin. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Woody Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Quote: The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. {SC 27.2} Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Woody Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Quote: "The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ." STC 26 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
melvin mccarty Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 OK I know that all will not be "saved" but the provision has been made for all. Universal justification a better terminology? Point I was trying to make is that many will be saved who have not gone through the "process" amd your statements are not universally applicable. If you really believe the statements made by EGW regarding babies then that blows your other arguements right out of the water! mel Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 9, 2008 Moderators Posted July 9, 2008 OK I know that all will not be "saved" but the provision has been made for all. Yes, absolutely. Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to save all people who have ever lived. Quote: Universal justification a better terminology? Where do you find the Bible or Ellen White teach "universal justification"? Quote: Point I was trying to make is that many will be saved who have not gone through the "process" amd your statements are not universally applicable. Where does the Bible teach or say that many will be saved who have never heard or accepted the gospel? Do you find evidence that the Bible says those who have rejected the gospel will be saved? Is the gospel optional, in your judgment? If you believe people are saved apart from faith in Christ, on what basis are they saved? Are they saved because they are honest and good people? Quote: If you really believe the statements made by EGW regarding babies then that blows your other arguements right out of the water! mel I don't accept that understanding of what Ellen White saw or said. It seems to me that you are assuming her vision means people generally don't need the gospel in order to be saved. But if we build our theology on the Bible-- which we must-- it is wrong to use our understanding of Ellen White's vision to contradict a clear teaching of the Bible. The clear teaching of the Bible is that Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved. We are commanded to preach and teach the gospel to every person alive on earth. The Bible does not encourage us to believe that the gospel is anything but absolutely essential. If God decides to save some people apart from the gospel, He is free to do that, of course, but that fact does not change the gospel commission or excuse us from obeying it. We wouldn't be right to construct our view of salvation on the basis of Ellen White's vision of children flying in heaven. If you believe the Bible teaches there is a second or alternative way to salvation, please present the evidence of what the Bible says it is. What specific arguments do you believe are blown out of the water by Ellen White's description of the babies in heaven? I take it, based on your comments here, that you do not believe in universal salvation. What, then, do you believe regarding salvation? How is a person saved in God's kingdom, according to your understanding of the Bible? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.