WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION

[Fausto]

This excerpt gives a little bit of light into the subject

Why Condemned. God will not condemn any at the judgment because they honestly believed a lie, or conscientiously cherished error; but it will be because they neglected the opportunities of making themselves acquainted with truth. The infidel will be condemned, not because he was an infidel, but because he did not take advantage of the means God has placed within his reach to enable him to become a Christian.

So it will be found in the judgment. God's reproof has been plainly uttered against men and women who have sinned by corrupting their bodies and defiling their souls by licentiousness. They have the warnings to others placed in similar circumstances, who have been overcome by the tempter, and they know that the displeasure of God rested upon them. They have the example of Joseph and Daniel, who feared God.

Joseph, when tempted, looked up to heaven, and realized that God's eye was upon him, and he exclaimed, "How can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" He also urged his duty to his master, who trusted him so fully, as a reason against it.

[melvin mccarty]

Just to get this all cleared up then is it your opinion that there will be no person saved.....no one at all...who has not "accepted" Christ's sacrifice? Meaning that all saved will have been adults and in their right minds and Christians. Absoluttely no Moslems or Budhists or any such have a chance? No babies at all?...

Is this what you believe John 3:17? "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the WORLD through Him might be SAVED"

mel

[John317]

.... While Final Restoration seems to offer relief to the dilemma of being born on a rebellious planet, it creates a worse dilemma for the believer regarding the trustworthiness of God’s righteousness. Put simply, does He mean what He says in his warnings as well as His blessings? If one overlooks all the Scriptural passages that warn destruction of the wicked, it may well persuade him that God’s righteousness is of lesser weight than His mercy. But, both are met in Christ Jesus who died for all, but Who will return with “flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess:1:5-9). Though our Father bore long with Lucifer, the day came when he was forcefully thrown out of heaven (Revelation 12:9), and the day is likewise coming when he will be burned up. Divine forbearance has a limit.

....... The Bible carefully delineates between two classes of people and their relation to the Lamb’s Book of Life. Those with their names written therein are granted by grace, entrance into the New Jerusalem. Those whose names are not written therein are cast into the “second death” (“lake of fire”). These opposing rewards offer no discount in their finality (Revelation 21).

...... No second Chance: God extends grace to the living and not to the dead. There is no second chance beyond the veil of this life. The devil would love to convince people that a second chance awaits them, their procrastination rewarded with doom. The Universalist school of thought has, on occasion, given birth to the presumption that life’s decisions are of little consequence in determining our destiny. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live” (Deut. 30:19). ......

I really appreciated what you wrote here. You've summarized well some of the most important Bible evidence against universal salvation. While I sympathize and agree with the point which believers in universal salvation make about hell and eternal torment, I don't see how we can harmonize the Bible's clear statements about the destiny of the lost with the idea that everyone will eventually be saved. To do that one must either ignore those Bible passages or else conclude that the Bible says things that it doesn't really mean. I know there are various ways of doing that, such as saying the prophets themselves misunderstood what God was trying to reveal to them. I don't find that an acceptable or reasonable explanation, either. It seems to me to pose far more problems than it solves.

[Fausto]

All those that have accepted Christ and His truth wil be saved. But this is what it says:

John 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

[John317]

Just to get this all cleared up then is it your opinion that there will be no person saved.....no one at all...who has not "accepted" Christ's sacrifice? Meaning that all saved will have been adults and in their right minds and Christians. Absoluttely no Moslems or Budhists or any such have a chance? No babies at all?...

Is this what you believe John 3:17? "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the WORLD through Him might be SAVED"

mel

John 3: 16-- "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son in order that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life."

Also include verses 18-21.

There is much that we don't know. We can't really judge in all its details who is going to be saved. All we know is what the Bible says about it-- what God has revealed to us. And the Bible is very clear that belief in the gospel and in Christ is essential, not optional. That is clear from the gospel commission as it reads in Mark 16: 16. It is based on the entire book of Acts. "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4: 5).

Whether God chooses to save Muslims and Buddhists without their accepting Christ is up to God, of course. I am sure that he has not chosen to reveal everything to us, but what He has revealed is what we must go by. The Bible is very clear that we cannot assume people are saved apart from faith in Christ. "But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe" (Gal. 3:22).

The bottom line for me is that we must build our theologies of salvation and missions on the Word of God and not on conjecture, human-centered philosophy, and wishful thinking. As a church, our views on these vital subjects must come out of clear teachings of the Bible. We dare not adopt views regarding salvation that contradict the weight of Biblical evidence.

If we believe that Muslims and Buddhists and atheists and Taoists, etc., can be saved equally well through their various world-views or ideas, then what is the urgency of proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ to them?

By the way, I believe that Muslims and Buddhists and others will be saved by putting their faith in Jesus Christ. That is the whole purpose of sending people to proclaim the gospel. Many thousands of them are accepting Jesus Christ every day.

We know very little for certain about the salvation of babies-- the Bible doesn't say anything about it-- and so we must leave God to make those decisions. We do know for sure that we can completely trust Him.

Do I believe there will be some babies in heaven? Yes, I certainly do. They will grow up there. And I can't think of a more perfect place to grow up.

[Robert]

Do I believe there will be some babies in heaven? Yes, I certainly do.

How can they be saved apart from personal faith in Christ?

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. [NASB]

Note: "There resulted justification of life to all men"

Eph 2:4...God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [agape] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus....

Note: "By grace (not faith) you have been saved"

Yes, for those who have been enlightened they must accept Christ by faith. See verse 8.

[John317]

We've already discussed that verse many times. The verse reads, literally, "Consequently, then as through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also through one just [act] for all mankind for life's justifying."

The words supplied by the translator are in red: "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

The verbs "there resulted" are supplied by the translator. If you go by verse 19, "many will be made righteous," you would supply the words, "there comes" or "there results."

The translation given by the NKJV at Romans 5: 18 is also quite possible: "so through one Man's righteous act, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

In any case, it is not necessary to translate Romans 5: 18 in such a way as to mean that all the world has been already justified and forgiven. The sacrifice of Christ has already been made so that we can be forgiven and saved, but that depends on our acceptance of the free gift. This is, in fact, how the gospel is always presented in the NT. First comes the proclamation of the gospel; next comes repentance and faith in Christ; then comes justification and salvation. You never hear the gospel presented as if everyone is already justified and forgiven and we just need to know this fact. Justification and salvation always comes to us BY grace THROUGH faith. The Bible does not teach that we were justified and saved before we were born.

Look carefully at all of the NT passages describing how the gospel was proclaimed and you will always hear it proclaimed the same way, as I've described above. See, for instance, Acts 13: 38, 39: "By Him everyone who believes is justified..." Again, "Believe on the Lord and you will be saved..." IT DOES NOT SAY YOU HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED or YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED before you believed!

The fact that Ellen White had a vision of babies in heaven cannot be made the basis of our theology of salvation, which is what it seems to me you are attempting to do. The Bible is very clear that salvation comes to us, or is received, through placing ones faith in Jesus Christ and not by being a good person. If that were the case, there would be no need for the gospel, since we could all be saved simply by being a good person. But the Bible teaches plainly that this is impossible. In order to be saved apart from faith, one would have to obey the law perfectly, and we all know that is an utter impossibility.

All that leaves us with is the necessity of hearing the gospel and putting faith in Christ in order to be saved in God's Kingdom. Will God save some apart from the hearing of the gospel? He may, in fact I believe he will -- but that is His affair. It does not affect the Bible's teaching that one must both hear and accept the gospel and be born of the Spirit. He gave us the Bible as it reads for a good reason. It would be wrong to base such an important view of missions and of salvation on this vision given to Ellen White. We may be sure that Ellen White would not have been supportive of such a misuse of her vision.

[fccool]

Welcome to the forum, and forgive me for not reading all of the posts before adding my 2 cents.

I think before you arrive at the threshold of the universal salvation, you'd have to presumptuously throw away much of the Bible. I think that the argument is based more on emotions rather than Biblical view. It goes something like this:

1) I can't believe that God is merciful and just and will burn some people up based on the sins of their parents... therefore he will save all.

2) Based on one... there are some verses in the Bible that say "all" in them, then it must mean that all are saved no matter what.

I understand the emotional bases for the argument, as I do have great parents who reject even the possibility for God's existence, and I do hope and pray that some day He will reveal Himself to them. Yet, for me to accept the Universal Salvation I'd have to Ignore the following:

1) The entire subject of hell, and chalk it up as a scare tactics of God... thus he is really lying about the whole destruction thing and the wicked being the ashes under the feet of the just.

2) The entire subject of salvation by faith... and chalk it up as salvation by faith means the faith OF Jesus and not the faith IN Jesus.

3) Only parts of the Bible are true then, and the others are symbolic... the ones that do not deal with "universal salvation".... aka... Only those who exited the Sodom and Gomorrah were saved....only part of the Jews Entered the promise land... and etc.

Yet, I think we can still take something away from the Universal Salvation view... and it is the fact that we don't get what we deserve, and that salvation is the Thing of God and not men.

[John317]

Welcome to the forum, and forgive me for not reading all of the posts before adding my 2 cents.

I think before you arrive at the threshold of the universal salvation, you'd have to presumptuously throw away much of the Bible. I think that the argument is based more on emotions rather than Biblical view.

I agree with you. But of course I never have believed in universal salvation. I completely reject it because I find no support for it in the Bible.

[WayneV]

The original post that started this thread appears to have been a "Hit-N-Run," as it is the only post the user made to any forum here. Maybe s/he was banned from the forums rather quickly. I don't know. Yet, the thread continues, why?

[John317]

Yes, I noticed the same about the original poster.

The thread continues as long as there are members who feel that they want to contribute something to the topic or if anyone else has a question about it. It's certainly a subject that lots of people wonder about-- not only on the precise question but on some which are closely related.

[GiveHimGlory]

I'm an Adventist interested in Universal Salvation, are there actually any Adventists who accept this? I would like to hear from them.

In researching this I came across these statements:

"As ministers, they focused much more strongly on the health reform oriented doctrines of EGW and her emerging ideas of universal salvation (contradicting her earlier "Shut Door" testimonies) than on the fundamentalist- apocalyptic theology of the General Conference (as the formal ministry of the church was organized)."

"The vast majority of EGW's testimonies were about what Adventists should eat, wear, and do in propagation of the faith. Issues directly affecting the church business operations were often addressed. Many of the testimonies were spiritual in nature, but they ran the gamut from hell-fire damnation to universal forgiveness, apparently paralleling EGW's own spiritual development from her fanatically fundamentalist-apocalyptic roots to become the spiritual leader of a major new religious movement."

http://ubfellowship.org/archive/history/doc171.htm

I am not aware of any EGW statements about Universal Salvation - does anyone know what the person is talking about?

[olger]

Adventists don't believe in universal salvation because we have been "people of the Book" and the "Book" doesn't teach that.

There are a few (more than a few) who have accepted parts of Calvinism into their teaching in order to see themselves as unconditionally saved. But the Bible does not teach unconditional salvation either.

The Bible teaches us that the security of our salvation rests in the ongoing relationship we have with Jesus the Christ. "He who comes to Me (and KEEPS coming to Me) is going to have rest."

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

og

[Woody]

The original post that started this thread appears to have been a "Hit-N-Run," as it is the only post the user made to any forum here. Maybe s/he was banned from the forums rather quickly. I don't know. Yet, the thread continues, why?

This guy is small fry. If you want to see the ultimate hit-n-run poster ... try CGMedley . He has some 600 posts over 8 years and to my knowledge ... he has never responded to any posts. I would nominate him for the award of all time Hit-n-Run poster. I've tried and given up on getting any response from him.

So, as you can see ... this is accepted here.

[John317]

I'm an Adventist interested in Universal Salvation, are there actually any Adventists who accept this? I would like to hear from them.

In researching this I came across these statements:

"As ministers, they focused much more strongly on the health reform oriented doctrines of EGW and her emerging ideas of universal salvation (contradicting her earlier "Shut Door" testimonies) than on the fundamentalist- apocalyptic theology of the General Conference (as the formal ministry of the church was organized)."

At the following link, you can research everything she wrote. I would say that generally speaking it is best to read what she wrote rather than studying what others wrote about her. It's a good place to do your research because here you can do your own independent work and find out exactly what she wrote and taught.

http://www.whiteestate.org/

In regard to Universal salvation, Ellen White said,

To show how believers in universal salvation wrest the Scriptures to sustain their soul-destroying dogmas, it is needful only to cite their own utterances. At the funeral of an irreligious young man, who had been killed instantly by an accident, a Universalist minister selected as his text the Scripture statement concerning David, "He was comforted concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead." [2 Samuel 13:39.] The Great Controversy (1888), page 537, paragraph 2; Chapter Title: Chapter XXXIII - The First Great Deception

There was no arbitrary choice on the part of God by which Esau was shut out from the blessings of salvation. The gifts of His grace through Christ are free to all. There is no election but one's own by which any may perish. . . . Every soul is elected who will work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. He is elected who will put on the armor and fight the good fight of faith. He is elected who will watch unto prayer, who will search the Scriptures, and flee from temptation. He is elected who will have faith continually, and who will be obedient to every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. The provisions of redemption are free to all; the results of redemption will be enjoyed by those who have complied with the conditions. Conflict and Courage (1970), page 71, paragraph 4

[WayneV]

This guy is small fry. If you want to see the ultimate hit-n-run poster ... try CGMedley . He has some 600 posts over 8 years and to my knowledge ... he has never responded to any posts. I would nominate him for the award of all time Hit-n-Run poster. I've tried and given up on getting any response from him.

So, as you can see ... this is accepted here.

[GiveHimGlory]

To say we don't believe in Universal Salvation because the Bible doesn't teach it rather begs the question doesn't it?

For the first 500 years most Christians believed the Bible taught Universal Salvation, then Augustine came along and argued for everlasting punishment in hell and the majority switched over to his view.

Read Romans chapters 9-11 and you will see Paul's argument as to why everyone will be saved:

“For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all” (Rom 11:32).

Similarly

“just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men” (Rom 5:18)

“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Cor 15:22)

“Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb

be praise and honour and glory and power,

for ever and ever!" (Rev 5:13)

Most people who look into it find that actually this is exactly what the Bible teaches, and it is only blind obedience to tradition that stops people accepting it.

Try finding a copy of "The Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbott and make your own mind up.

[John317]

To say we don't believe in Universal Salvation because the Bible doesn't teach it rather begs the question doesn't it?

For the first 500 years most Christians believed the Bible taught Universal Salvation, then Augustine came along and argued for everlasting punishment in hell and the majority switched over to his view.

I do not think that this is true, friend, but this is the right thread to discuss and show all the evidence both pro and con.

I don't believe that most Christians did believe or teach Universal Salvation for the first 500 years of the church, but even if they did, it would really prove nothing because we know that many false doctrines came into the church during those first few centuries.

Therefore, since we base our faith and doctrines on the Bible, let us stick for the time being with the Bible evidence. I believe that all truth must agree with the Word of God, and the Bible is consistent.

We can start with 2 Thess. 1: 5-10 and 2: 8-10--

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed......

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.