WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION

[melvin mccarty]

The babies my friend...the babies alone prove your theory false. And the people who have never heard the gospel. Do you believe that God is a just judge? Can he be just and condemn anyone just they have not "accepted" Him if they have never heard of Him?"

Bible says that the sheep are divided from the goats according to whether they love their neighbor. The gospel is the good news that Jesus died for all but whether they hear that or not they are included in the "all". mel

[Robert]

But if we build our theology on the Bible-- which we must-- it is wrong to use our understanding of Ellen White's vision to contradict a clear teaching of the Bible. The clear teaching of the Bible is that Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved.

And babies are saved by Christ's doing and dying as is anyone else.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But if we build our theology on the Bible-- which we must-- it is wrong to use our understanding of Ellen White's vision to contradict a clear teaching of the Bible. The clear teaching of the Bible is that Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved.

And babies are saved by Christ's doing and dying as is anyone else.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men.

Do you believe in universal salvation? Will everyone be saved? That is the subject of this thread. Answer that question first, and then we can go on to discussing the salvation of babies.

Does the Bible say that there will be people saved apart from personal faith in Christ? If so, where does it say this?

[John317]

The babies my friend...the babies alone prove your theory false.

Are all babies who die as babies going to be saved? If that is true, then wouldn't it be best if everyone would die as a baby, since if they grow up, they may not be saved? It would appear that in your theory, people's chances of being saved decrease greatly as they grow older. Is that just? And where do you find support for these views in the Bible?

Are you going to base something as important as how people are saved on a description of Ellen White's vision? Do you really accord her that much authority when it comes to all her visions? What about her visions of the heavenly sanctuary? What about her hundreds of other statements regarding salvation? Do you trust all her statements as much as you do her statement about seeing the babies flying in heaven? I find it strange that people who admit they don't consider Ellen White an authority in anything else accept her statement about the children flying in heaven as if it was a part of Holy Scripture. Why?

(By the way, I do accept her as an authority, but subordinate to the Bible.)

Second, what is my "theory"?

Here is my "theory": Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

How many can come to the Father apart from Christ? Answer: none.

"Assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3: 3).

Is it possible for anyone to see the kingdom of God without being born from above? Answer: Jesus' answer is that apart from being born of the Spirit, one cannot see the kingdom of God.

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16: 16).

According to this verse, how does one become saved? Answer: through hearing the gospel and believing it.

What did Jesus say will happen to those who do not believe the gospel? Answer: they will be condemned.

"Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4: 5).

"This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" (1 John 5:11).

"He that has the Son has life" (1 John 5:12).

"And he that has not the Son has not life" (same verse).

"He that believes on the Son has everlsting life; and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36.

"But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe" (Gal. 3:22).

[John317]

Quote:

And the people who have never heard the gospel. Do you believe that God is a just judge? Can he be just and condemn anyone just they have not "accepted" Him if they have never heard of Him?"

God would have been just if he had left every one of us to reap the consequences of sin, which is eternal death. It is only due to His love and grace that anyone has an opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and be saved. God did not HAVE to save anyone through belief in Christ.

Yes, God is a just judge.

He has revealed to us through His Word how He has chosen to save people, and it says plainly it is only through faith in Jesus Christ. It does not say it is through being a good person or by virtue of dying when very young.

Quote:

Bible says that the sheep are divided from the goats according to whether they love their neighbor. The gospel is the good news that Jesus died for all but whether they hear that or not they are included in the "all". mel

Do you believe the Bible teaches that people are saved by works? That is what you appear to me to be teaching, that people can be saved because of what they do, and not by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus did not give us two ways to salvation: one through belief in Christ and the other through loving one's neighbor. He is saying that many may claim to believe in Christ but the real test whether we really love and believe Christ is shown by whether we love our neighbor. Our life will tell whether we really believe or whether it is all just talk. (This is where the Pre-Advent Judgment comes into play.)

Yes, Jesus did die for all, but the Bible is clear (see above verses) that His death is appropriated only by placing one's faith in Him. Or do you believe that His death is appropriated to all regardless of faith? If so, where does it teach this?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And babies are saved by Christ's doing and dying as is anyone else.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men' date=' even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's'] there resulted justification of life to all men.

Do you believe in universal salvation?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe in universal salvation?

Quote:

The universal condemnation upon every child of Adam was reversed in Christ. All men were made righteous in Him. That's universal.

"Were" or "are"?

If all people "were made righteous in Him," doesn't that mean they are righteous in Him? Will God then destroy those who are righteous in Him? I think I know how you might answer this question, but I would like to see it.

Quote:

Will everyone be [ultimately] saved?

Quote:

Clearly no....

OK, I thought so, based on our previous exchanges. Therefore, we clearly agree on the main question of this thread, which, of course, is whether there is universal salvation.

Why don't you make the case here that there is no universal salvation? By making your argument the way you have, you could give someone the mistaken impression that you believe everyone will ultimately be saved. At least they could use some of your points in defense of universal salvation. For instance, they might pose the question, how could a just God condemn many millions of people after Christ has reversed their condemnation?

Again, I would like to hear how you would speak to that issue.

[Woody]

Quote:

Where do you find the Bible or Ellen White teach "universal justification"?

Do you believe in universal salvation? Will everyone be saved? That is the subject of this thread. Answer that question first, and then we can go on to discussing the salvation of babies.

John317 ... You keep moving the bar. You ask so many questions and then you try to dictate which ones can be answered first. Robert answered your question about "universal justification" so why don't you just acknowledge it?

[Woody]

Quote:

By the way, I do accept her as an authority, but subordinate to the Bible.)

What happened to your statement "I accept all of her writings that were meant for publication".

[John317]

[John317]

Quote:

By the way, I do accept her as an authority, but subordinate to the Bible.)

What happened to your statement "I accept all of her writings that were meant for publication".

Still good by me. Explain what you mean.

[John317]

Quote:

Where do you find the Bible or Ellen White teach "universal justification"?

Do you believe in universal salvation? Will everyone be saved? That is the subject of this thread. Answer that question first, and then we can go on to discussing the salvation of babies.

John317 ... You keep moving the bar. You ask so many questions and then you try to dictate which ones can be answered first. Robert answered your question about "universal justification" so why don't you just acknowledge it?

Tell me how the bar was moved. The "bar" on this thread is the question whether there is universal salvation, not whether there is universal justification. So Robert is the one who moved the bar if indeed it has been moved at all. The original question or topic here was not universal justification, and I seriously doubt that Robert would want to imply that universal justification is closely connected to universal salvation.

But I did acknowledge that he does not not believe in universal salvation, however. This is what I said:

Quote:

OK, I thought so [that you don't believe in universal salvation], based on our previous exchanges. Therefore, we clearly agree on the main question of this thread, which, of course, is whether there is universal salvation.

Why don't you make the case here that there is no universal salvation? By making your argument the way you have, you could give someone the mistaken impression that you believe everyone will ultimately be saved. At least they could use some of your points in defense of universal salvation. For instance, they might pose the question, how could a just God condemn many millions of people after Christ has reversed their condemnation?

Again, I would like to hear how you would speak to that issue.

[melvin mccarty]

Well one thing is obvious. Inspired persons do not necessarily always agree with each other. If they did we would not have hundreds of churches all claiming to be right Even serious sensible SDA's do not all agree with each other...obviously. Now abideth faith, hope, and the 28 fundementals but thr greatest of these is love.

mel

[John317]

Yes, in life Peter did not always agree with Paul, but their writings do agree, although there are some who deny this (of course!).

I can see your point about the many different churches and groups, but most of the time, these differences can be explained on the basis of the groups' history and origins. I would point out that the differences are not usually because of lack of clarity in the Bible. Often it is because not ALL of the Bible is being considered but only a select group of verses. I believe the Bible is self-consistent (although there are those, of course, who would disagree with me!). So it goes-- such is life.

[Woody]

Well one thing is obvious. Inspired persons do not necessarily always agree with each other. If they did we would not have hundreds of churches all claiming to be right Even serious sensible SDA's do not all agree with each other...obviously. Now abideth faith, hope, and the 28 fundementals but thr greatest of these is love.

mel

[Robert]

Read verses 9-12, which you did not include: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law...." Paul's point is that all mankind is justly condemned because all are equally sinful.

You will notice that those texts say absolutely nothing about their being saved through knowledge of nature.

That's why you have to go on to Romans chapter 5 where Paul sums it up....

[Robert]

Why don't you make the case here that there is no universal salvation? By making your argument the way you have, you could give someone the mistaken impression that you believe everyone will ultimately be saved.

Here's what I said early on:

The way I understand it is that Christ's death as reversed our condemnation in Adam. Therefore I believe that all babies (although sinners) are born under grace (EGW eludes to this). At the age of accountability the HS will convict them of their need of Christ.

The HS does this through various means, but the best is the preaching of the gospel. However many have never heard the gospel (and will never hear it). To these billions the HS works through nature...through conscience, etc. [see Romans chapter 1] When conviction comes that person then has the choice whether to reject God's gift or keep it.

"To keep it" means that they have already been "justified to life 'in Christ'"! It's already theirs! Someone needs to tell them.

Having stated that - many will reject it. Why? They don't need no stinking righteous because they are quite righteous in their own eyes. Hence, Christ's statement rings true: "I didn't come to save the righteous (i.e., the self-righteous - e.g. the Pharisees, etc), but sinners....."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Read verses 9-12, which you did not include: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law...." Paul's point is that all mankind is justly condemned because all are equally sinful.

You will notice that those texts say absolutely nothing about their being saved through knowledge of nature.

That's why you have to go on to Romans chapter 5 where Paul sums it up....

What verse or verses in chapter 5 give evidence that people are saved through a knowledge of God acquired through nature?

Romans 10: 11-18 describes the importance of the preaching of the gospel before people can put faith in God. Paul's point is that they can't believe and be saved unless a preacher first takes the gospel to them. See especially verse 14-17. That is why it is urgent. There is no second option to the proclamation to the gospel. The preaching of it and the acceptance of it mean the difference between life eternal and death. That's about as serious as anything can be. You agree?

[John317]

OK, very good, thanks. I understand what you are saying here, and I think we are pretty much in agreement on that.

[Fausto]

Quote:

Are all babies who die as babies going to be saved? If that is true, then wouldn't it be best if everyone would die as a baby, since if they grow up, they may not be saved?

I was wondering about this, could it be that if the father/mother is not saved or taking up his/her responsibilities towards getting his/her whole immediate family under God's "umbrella" (redeemed) then they will not be saved?

[John317]

Good question, and one a lot of people would like to know the answer to. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of information on it, so it is hard to give a solid and clear answer one way or the other. However, I'll do some study on it and then will write a little more here. In the meantime, I'd like to hear what others say on the basis of what they have read in the Bible or in Mrs. White's writings.

[Robert]

OK, very good, thanks. I understand what you are saying here, and I think we are pretty much in agreement on that.

Are you sure? Here's what I said:

When conviction comes that person then has the choice whether to reject God's gift or keep it.

"To keep it" means that they have already been "justified to life 'in Christ'"! It's already theirs! Someone needs to tell them.

[Robert]

Quote:

Are all babies who die as babies going to be saved? If that is true, then wouldn't it be best if everyone would die as a baby, since if they grow up, they may not be saved?

I was wondering about this, could it be that if the father/mother is not saved or taking up his/her responsibilities towards getting his/her whole immediate family under God's "umbrella" (redeemed) then they will not be saved?

But you can't bring someone under the umbrella unless he/she wants to....Babies can't reason, so they can't accept Christ. If you say that babies who die before they reach maturity are saved by the faith of their parents then "faith" becomes the Savior instead of Christ.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

OK, very good, thanks. I understand what you are saying here, and I think we are pretty much in agreement on that.

Are you sure? Here's what I said:

When conviction comes that person then has the choice whether to reject God's gift or keep it.

"To keep it" means that they have already been "justified to life 'in Christ'"! It's already theirs! Someone needs to tell them.

Yes, I am familiar with that idea. While I don't fully agree with how that is phrased, I do agree with the principle that the gospel informs people that Christ died for them so they can be saved eternally in God's Kingdom.

The problem is that the NT never records Paul or Peter's preaching that "you are already justified and saved. We are here to notify you of these things that have already happened. You have merely to acknowledge them."

No, the proclamation is, "Repent and believe the gospel and you will then be justified and saved."

Jesus already died and already made provision for their justification and salvation, but it is not presented as if the justification and salvation was in there possession before they put their faith in Christ.

I can imagine telling my atheist/agnostic friend, "You know, let me tell you some great news-- God has already forgiven you. You stand at this moment completely justified and as if you have never sinned. He does not see you as a sinner. God already has given you salvation. It is yours now. In fact, this justification and salvation has always been yours since you were born."

How do you suppose he would accept this message?

Likely he would say something such as the following: "OK, fine. Thanks for telling me that really great news. Now that that's taken care of, I'm going to go in the bathroom and brush my teeth and then... " and so on and so forth.

[olger]

2. Final Restoration. As a boy of 11 years old, I was aware that many people in the church of my fathers discussed this issue. It filled my mind with wonder. On a trip to Indiana with my Uncle Glen Wagoner in 1971, I turned to him in the car and asked “Uncle Glen, do you believe in final restoration?” I honestly wanted to know his thoughts on the subject. After a brief pause, the question was followed by vigorous laughter and a hand on my knee “You’re too young to think about such things, Gerry.” Perhaps I was…perhaps not.

Final restoration insists that every soul created by God would sooner or later be saved and inherit everlasting happiness. It teaches the final destruction of sin and the reconciliation of all souls to God through Jesus Christ. It stressed the triumph of the divine plan for man and the victory of divine love. This was the belief among some of the Anabaptists, such as John Denk. Evidence also exists that that a majority of the Old German Baptist Brethren believed & taught this doctrine during their first 140 years. Over time, this belief would be gradually eroded by the eternal torment school, which virtually took possession of the field. Today, a smaller number of the German Baptist Brethren retain this belief. Elsewhere, the Unitarian Universalist Church is the largest voice for this doctrine.

• The appeal of Final Restoration lies in its description of mercy. If, after all, “Mercy triumphs over judgement,” then this God who was credited with eternal torture takes on a new face. Historically this doctrine was conceived in the minds of men who were long weary of the Greek idea of eternal torture and horrified at it’s implications. It was called Restorationism at first. This doctrine was first developed by Origen (c. 185–c. 254), who wrote in the early centuries of Christianity. Unfortunately, Origen also believed in a form of reincarnation.

• Final Restoration is to be credited for its recognition that the Scriptures do not teach eternal torture. In his book Universal Restoration, Elhanan Winchester rightly observes that the Greek word aionios frequently refers to events that have already ended, as does the Hebrew word for forever – owlam.

• The theory of Universal Restoration (Final Restoration) rests heavily upon a thematic passage found in Isaiah, Romans, and Philippians “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” In this statement of God, it is presumed that every knee bowing, and every tongue confessing is evidence of a universal repentance. Final restoration teaches that Hell is a purifying conflagration that consumes away everything impure, thus leaving all sinners in a state of repentant submission.

• Final Restoration is to be commended for its realization that the molten earth (referred to as the fire of Hell) must eventually die out, paving the way for re-creation of the Earth made new.

• Several Biblical issues must be addressed.

 “By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. “Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee (emphasis mine). All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezekiel 28:16-19). Final Restoration neglects numerous Biblical accounts of destruction by Hellfire and fails to account for the many references to ashes as the only remainder of the wicked (Ezekiel 28:18, Malachi 4:1-3; 2 Peter 2:6).

 “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.” While Final Restoration seems to offer relief to the dilemma of being born on a rebellious planet, it creates a worse dilemma for the believer regarding the trustworthiness of God’s righteousness. Put simply, does He mean what He says in his warnings as well as His blessings? If one overlooks all the Scriptural passages that warn destruction of the wicked, it may well persuade him that God’s righteousness is of lesser weight than His mercy. But, both are met in Christ Jesus who died for all, but Who will return with “flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess:1:5-9). Though our Father bore long with Lucifer, the day came when he was forcefully thrown out of heaven (Revelation 12:9), and the day is likewise coming when he will be burned up. Divine forbearance has a limit.

 The Lamb’s Book of life. The Bible carefully delineates between two classes of people and their relation to the Lamb’s Book of Life. Those with their names written therein are granted by grace, entrance into the New Jerusalem. Those whose names are not written therein are cast into the “second death” (“lake of fire”). These opposing rewards offer no discount in their finality (Revelation 21).

 No second Chance: God extends grace to the living and not to the dead. There is no second chance beyond the veil of this life. The devil would love to convince people that a second chance awaits them, their procrastination rewarded with doom. The Universalist school of thought has, on occasion, given birth to the presumption that life’s decisions are of little consequence in determining our destiny. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live” (Deut. 30:19). Admittedly, there are many sincere believers who believe Final Restoration honestly, and I would not suggest for a moment that each of them looks to the eternal future with indifference. That is not an accurate portrayal. However, it must be admitted that Universal Restoration shares an uncomfortable alliance with the New Age philosophy of ultimate bliss for everybody. Life’s choices are thus relegated to the background. The people in the days of Noah lived in their second chance for 120-years, while the door of His ark was open. The waters sealed their choices, whether in the boat or outside.

I wrote a paper on "Final Restoration" in August of 2001. This is lifted from it.

Go in peace,

ger