Are there different varieties of belief within Adventism?

[doctorj]

It seems to me that the picture the General Conference would have us believe is that Adventist the world over have a standard set of beliefs. What I can see in my little world where I have visited from time to time three different churches is that there are very different "Adventist" audiences.

Does anyone else get that feeling from where you are that there are some very different audiences within "Adventism"? Or am I just not understanding how we are all the same?

[John317]

Explain what you see as the basic "varieties".

There are certainly at least two different sides or groups, yes. That has been the case since the 1880s, but it is becoming more and more obvious. It is much more the case than it was, say, in the 1950s to about 1974. In some ways I think the Net exacerbates it or at least brings it out into the open more than before.

[doctorj]

Explain what you see as the basic "varieties".

One church that I have visited seems to be very old school in their worship services -- the three hymns, two prayers and 40 minutes of sermon. They also have a set of beliefs that seems to me as non-inclusive of anyone who begs to differ. They made me feel like an outsider because I asked a question innocently and was rebuffed from a quotation from Ellen White. I Don't know how they had the quotation on hand but this Sabbath School teacher had it right there and read the quotation.

The other church I go to normally, seems not to place any emphasis on Ellen White. In fact, quoting from Ellen White falls on deaf ears in this church. The Sabbath service is dominated by many songs, drums, guitars, and a strong sense that everyone is invited to participate in worship.

Just in two churches I see there is a huge difference in outward appearance but also in a sense that there are quite a different set of beliefs.

[John317]

OK, yes, those are the two main divisions that I see as well.

Did you think that your question was answered by the Ellen White quote? Did you find her quote off the topic or did you feel that you wanted more discussion?

On a scale of 1 to 10, the 10 signifying very important, how do you rate a quote from Ellen White that answers a particular question you have?

Why do you think there is such low interest in some of those churches in what Ellen White wrote or said? Do you see this low interest as good or bad or indifferent?

About me:

Personally, except for AdventistForum, I spend almost no time with other SDAs. Virtually all of my friends are non-SDA and in fact non-Christian. My closest friend of 30+ years smokes weed and is an agnostic/atheist. I study with Jehovah's Witnesses just to learn what they believe and because I enjoy being around them. I also correspond very often with a Mormon man who is trying to persuade me to be a Mormon. I have been studying Mormonism for years and have read most of their books. My favorite book is the Bible, but I also love reading literature, philosophy, and practically everything.

One reason I don't go to the local church where my bi-lingual children and Spanish-speaking wife go is that I cannot hear very well, and I simply find it frustrating not to hear much. (My wife was Catholic when we married and most of her family are Catholic.)

But I definitely believe and love the Adventist doctrines, particularly the Sabbath and the Third Angels Message. I was out of the church completely and absolutely for a long time and came back to Christ and to the church about 3 years ago. I graduated with a degree in theology but didn't go into the ministry because I was unable during those years to give up the gay lifestyle. The Lord has given me the victory over that after many years of terrible, terrible struggle.

[doctorj]

Did you think that your question was answered by the Ellen White quote? Did you find her quote off the topic or did you feel that you wanted more discussion?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Did you think that your question was answered by the Ellen White quote? Did you find her quote off the topic or did you feel that you wanted more discussion?

My question was answered with the quote, it was quite un-nerving the way the teacher had the quote to answer my question. However, there could have been more discussion around the issue to clarify. However, what happened was the teacher just read teh quote and moved on.

Sounds like you probably asked a common question, one that the teacher was certain someone would ask.

May I ask what your question was?

[LifeHiscost]

...there are very different "Adventist" audiences.

Does anyone else get that feeling from where you are that there are some very different audiences within "Adventism"?

Probably as many as there are individual members of the body of Christ. Even the Lord recognizes this from the Word.

"....until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:13 NASB

Why would it be necessary to wait until we all attain to the unity of the faith if we were already there? In the meantime we have the glue that allows us to function as a body of believers despite the fact that some of our beliefs do not perfectly coincide with our brother and sisters.

"Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity." Colossians 3:14 NASB

And, of course, there are other biblically accepted attitudes that help us each one to find that livable unity of faith.

"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;" Philippians 2:3 NASB

In the meantime we can recognize there is only one true Way, though we often cannot see it very clearly for one reason or another.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8 NASB

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV

Regards!

[Gerr]

If you mean, are there conservative, moderate, and liberal Adventists? Yes, of course.

If you mean, are there Adventists that eat out on Sabbath and those that don't? Yes, again.

If you mean, are there SDAs who accept EGW as a prophet and those that do not? Right again.

If you mean, are Adventists who believe in the Sanctuary doctrine and the Investigative Judgment and those who don't? Correct again.

No, the church is not as united as one would like to believe or have you believe.

Will the church ever be united in doctrine and practice before Christ comes? I rather doubt it. But we can become one in purpose of spreading the good news of His coming kingdom, and one in loving the Lord and loving our fellow man.

Gerry

[John317]

I like your post very much, Life. You always come up with good insights and very appropriate Bible verses, I think.

[doctorj]

Sounds like you probably asked a common question, one that the teacher was certain someone would ask.

May I ask what your question was?

My question was "Surely the idea of "perfection of character" is not to be realised in this life?"

The Answer I was given: "In His teachings, Christ showed how far-reaching are the principles of the law spoken from Sinai. He made a living application of that law whose principles remain forever the great standard of righteousness--the standard by which all shall be judged in that great day when the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened. He came to fulfill all righteousness, and, as the head of humanity, to show man that he can do the same work, meeting every specification of the requirements of God. Through the measure of His grace furnished to the human agent, not one need miss heaven. Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. The law of Jehovah is the tree; the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears." [1SM 211.2]

[LifeHiscost]

If you mean, are there conservative, moderate, and liberal Adventists? Yes, of course.

If you mean, are there Adventists that eat out on Sabbath and those that don't? Yes, again.

If you mean, are there SDAs who accept EGW as a prophet and those that do not? Right again.

If you mean, are Adventists who believe in the Sanctuary doctrine and the Investigative Judgment and those who don't? Correct again.

No, the church is not as united as one would like to believe or have you believe.

Will the church ever be united in doctrine and practice before Christ comes? I rather doubt it. But we can become one in purpose of spreading the good news of His coming kingdom, and one in loving the Lord and loving our fellow man.

Gerry

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God." Revelation 2:7 NASB

"'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" Revelation 2:11 NASB

Regards!

[John317]

I....Will the church ever be united in doctrine and practice before Christ comes? I rather doubt it. But we can become one in purpose of spreading the good news of His coming kingdom, and one in loving the Lord and loving our fellow man.

Gerry

I agree with you on everything except that I think the church will be united just about the time of the close of probation, due to persecution and what is called the shaking.

[Bravus]

I'm not sure that I see difference as a huge problem... rather, I see Adventism as one small circle drawn in the huge set of differences that is the Christian church as a whole. All Christians are united in some beliefs, and have differences on others, and Adventists are no different. There's only one simple standard for salvation (and, hint, it's not what Ellen White says it is in that quote) - diversity on other matters shouldn't bother us too much, IMO.

[Bravus]

John317, I wonder: will that unity of the church at that time mean uniformity on doctrine? And if so, which of the two main groups will need to move farthest? Will both groups need to move, either toward one another's positions or in some third direction?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sounds like you probably asked a common question, one that the teacher was certain someone would ask.

May I ask what your question was?

My question was "Surely the idea of "perfection of character" is not to be realised in this life?"

The Answer I was given: "In His teachings, Christ showed how far-reaching are the principles of the law spoken from Sinai. He made a living application of that law whose principles remain forever the great standard of righteousness--the standard by which all shall be judged in that great day when the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened. He came to fulfill all righteousness, and, as the head of humanity, to show man that he can do the same work, meeting every specification of the requirements of God. Through the measure of His grace furnished to the human agent, not one need miss heaven. Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. The law of Jehovah is the tree; the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears." [1SM 211.2]

I believe the quote, but what needs to be seen-- and which Ellen White also speaks about-- is that she is not talking about absolute perfection. Biblical perfection is spiritual maturity, not absolute sinlessness. It is describing people who are so settled into the truth about God and about Christ that they cannot be moved. They are walking with God each step of the way. It doesn't mean they never make a mistake or never need God's grace and forgiveness and righteousness.

Check out GC 425.

I think one of the important things to take away from your quote is that God's ideal for us is far higher than most of us realize, and that by the Holy Spirit's power there is no doubt that we can reach that ideal if we will put our hand in Christ's and don't take it out. Christ will do it. He's promised.

[carolaa]

It seems to me that the picture the General Conference would have us believe is that Adventist the world over have a standard set of beliefs. What I can see in my little world where I have visited from time to time three different churches is that there are very different "Adventist" audiences.

Does anyone else get that feeling from where you are that there are some very different audiences within "Adventism"? Or am I just not understanding how we are all the same?

I'm wondering if you are confusing *beliefs* with *values.* Beliefs have to do more with doctrines, while values have more to do with HOW we do things. (How do we keep the Sabbath, how do we "do" church, how do we reach the community, how much emphasis do we put on certain doctrines, etc.?)

Adventists have a huge variety of values. But I think, for the most part, that Adventist beliefs are the same worldwide. (Although I have to add that I continue to be surprised now and then at how little so many members know about what they "believe." But that's probably another subject.)

[Gerr]

If you read the rest of her writings, I think you will find that the "perfection of character" that she is referring to is NOT synonymous with sinless perfection. As long as we are imprisoned in this sinful flesh, sinless perfection is NOT possible. However, I do believe what the Apostle John says:

"No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him -- deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. 1 Jn 3:6 Amp.

This is the kind of character perfection that I think is possible in this life, by and through the grace of God.

Gerry

[doctorj]

I'm not sure that I see difference as a huge problem... rather, I see Adventism as one small circle drawn in the huge set of differences that is the Christian church as a whole.

I don't see having differences as a problem. BUT, I would like messages that arise from "official channels" to admit to huge differences of belief. I don't see that sort of message coming from "official channels".

[doctorj]

I'm wondering if you are confusing *beliefs* with *values.* Beliefs have to do more with doctrines, while values have more to do with HOW we do things. (How do we keep the Sabbath, how do we "do" church, how do we reach the community, how much emphasis do we put on certain doctrines, etc.?)

Adventists have a huge variety of values. But I think, for the most part, that Adventist beliefs are the same worldwide. (Although I have to add that I continue to be surprised now and then at how little so many members know about what they "believe." But that's probably another subject.)

It is both . . . there are substantial doctrinal differences between the two churches I spoke of in a previous post. AND there are different ways of doing Sabbath for example. What worries me is that "official channels" make us think there is but one set of doctrines held commonly by all Adventists when this is just not so.

[John317]

John317, I wonder: will that unity of the church at that time mean uniformity on doctrine? And if so, which of the two main groups will need to move farthest? Will both groups need to move, either toward one another's positions or in some third direction?

Very good question. It is not necessary to have complete uniformity on doctrine in all of its many details. That would almost be boring. I believe that even in heaven people will have differences of opinion. The change will be that in heaven we will love each other even when we disagree. And we will no longer disagree over whether God exists or whether He is good and loving.

Yet in the church on earth before the Second Coming, there will be agreement on the fundamentals. It is hard to imagine the Third Angels Message being proclaimed to the world under the power of the Latter Rain in a way that is contradictory. For instance, I believe that there will be perfect agreement on the importance of the Sabbath/Sunday issue and on the fact that God wants us to keep the Sabbath. Those who do not believe this will find it easy to drop out of the church when they find that keeping the Sabbath will require a great deal of suffering and trial.

Am I totally wrong here, you think?

[Bravus]

Ah, OK, thanks John and Gerry - I did wonder whether there was a distinction between 'perfection of character' and sinlessness, and probably should have spoken more moderately until I had checked out that niggle. I still think she is making that perfection of character the test of salvation, though, which is not mainstream Christian doctrine (where it is acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice that is the sole test of salvation).

True, doctorj, but the church is between a rock and a hard place. If they acknowledge the differences they may well end up in the same pickle as the Anglicans.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I'm not sure that I see difference as a huge problem... rather, I see Adventism as one small circle drawn in the huge set of differences that is the Christian church as a whole.

I don't see having differences as a problem. BUT, I would like messages that arise from "official channels" to admit to huge differences of belief. I don't see that sort of message coming from "official channels".

What is the biggest difference you've noticed in terms of belief coming from the church's thought-leaders, its writers, teachers, theologians, etc.?

Of course there are some big differences among the laity, because the laity often do not even understand the beliefs of the church. Many have not read a book in years, nor stayed awake in church through a whole sermon, let alone a series of sermons. It is the same way in the Mormon church-- many Mormons don't know their own doctrines. So there is a limit on how much you can judge a church's beliefs by talking to laity. Mostly what that will tell you is how well the church is indoctrinating (not used pejoratively here) its people before they join.

There is almost no variance in doctrine among the "Jehovah's Witnesses." There is a reason for that. It's called operant conditioning.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

....Will the church ever be united in doctrine and practice before Christ comes? I rather doubt it. But we can become one in purpose of spreading the good news of His coming kingdom, and one in loving the Lord and loving our fellow man.

Gerry

I agree with you on everything except that I think the church will be united just about the time of the close of probation , due to persecution and what is called the shaking.

At one time I believed that way also, John317, until I began to realize it would be necessary for us, before the actual coming of Jesus in the clouds, to repudiate as unnecessary a portion of the Word, in order to make the underlined (Will the church ever be united in doctrine and practice before Christ comes?)above a consistent reality. Of course I'm talking about the ability to unite while sin still is part of our character makeup. If we can be united while sin resides (as opposed to reigns), then I believe we're still on the same page.

If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not)... 1 Kings 8:46 KJV parenthesis theirs

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

KJV

Regards!

[John317]

Of course I'm talking about the ability to unite while sin still is part of our character makeup. If we can be united while sin resides (as opposed to reigns), then I believe we're still on the same page.

If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not)... 1 Kings 8:46 KJV parenthesis theirs

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

KJV

Regards!

No question about it as far as I'm concerned-- we will have sinful flesh right up the Second Coming. So, yes, I am talking about being united while sin is still part of our character makeup. Human probation doesn't mean that people will be absolutely sinless. It means people won't change sides after that point. It is like Rev. 22: 11 says.

[Woody]

I'm not sure that I see difference as a huge problem... rather, I see Adventism as one small circle drawn in the huge set of differences that is the Christian church as a whole. All Christians are united in some beliefs, and have differences on others, and Adventists are no different. There's only one simple standard for salvation (and, hint, it's not what Ellen White says it is in that quote) - diversity on other matters shouldn't bother us too much, IMO.

Well said Bravus. Well said.

No need to moderate when you are tellin the truth.