Are there different varieties of belief within Adventism?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But what should we do when there is a contradiction between the rule of the Word and our understanding that is based on "this life"? For instance, there are people who believe that their personal experience leads them to believe the dead return to communicate with the living. Also, I have heard people say that God has told them that they should keep Sunday and they don't need to keep the Sabbath. Still others say it is not necessary to accept Jesus in order to experience salvation. I personally know Christians who believe there is nothing wrong with living with someone they're not married to. Are they right?

I have to ask, are you reading what I am saying?????

First off, we are not talking about those who are babes in Christ. We are not talking about spiritual children who are still self-centered and need milk [ie teachings'] to get the nurishment that they need. However, peoole who are, like Abraham, God's friends, who are so intimate with God, that they KNOW where to go to meet with people who need God, are people who listen to God very carefully. And chances are, you may not recognise these people. They are pretty humble and seem pretty vulnerable.

These people have grown in Christ to the point that they understand when the Spirit moves them to do something. They also know when the Spirit is telling them to NOT do something. Do these people have a precedence [ie history] of learning the bible. Yes. Do they have a history of talking to God and learning His voice? Yes. Do these people do a lot of biblical reading? yes...Do they have a precidence to do His will? Yes, but the church typically doesn't recognise the workings of God. Do the church recognise when these people give good solid reasons for church business decisions? Yes, they do, drawing on biblical precedent and bilical reasons. Do these people have a special relationship with God? Yes, and a unique perspective, many times that open new meanings to obscure biblical text.

OK. My point all along has been that the Bible is the standard of faith and doctrine, even for mature Christians. I am essentially only repeating and emphasizing 2 Tim. 3: 15-17. Most of what you say above I completely agree with.

However, the part I can't agree on is where you say "the church typically doesn't recognize the workings of God." If you mean that the members of the Adventist church generally or usually don't recognize the workings of God, I couldn't agree.(Perhaps you have reference to the Christian church in general rather than to a specific denomination.) In any case, it no doubt is true of some and perhaps even of many, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the majority of the SDA church, including pastors and leaders, do not recognize the workings of God.

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Everyone of the prophets understood Jesus in some aspect that they were able to communicate thru the written word. Concider Abraham, when he was tested by God Himself, was able to distinguish God's voice and character when God asked him to sacrific his son on Mt. Moriah [sp]. It would have been very easy to say, "Well, it's written that I am not to kill. What I heard/saw could not have been God, since God does not allow us to murder, and sacrificing a human to any diety is a form of murder."

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JOHN 3:17--So far as we know, there was no written law before the time of Moses, so Abraham had nothing to read about God or about God's will. We are in a totally different situation today. God's primary revelation comes to us through the Bible. It is the rule of faith and teaching (doctrine) and correction for instruction in righteousness and makes us wise for salvation. See 1 Tim. 3: 15-17.

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Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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JOHN 3:17--Abraham knew God's voice from years of experience with God. Abraham knew that God would raise Isaac back to life. Hebrews 11: 17-19. He knew that God would not allow Isaac to remain dead because of God's promise to bless the world through the progeny of Isaac.

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Years of Experience with God? You don't think that the Devil knows how to imatate God's voice? When the bible says it "test"ed Abraham, it means the test was a real test...not a wimpy little quiry if it was God's voice or not. You better believe that the Devil imatated God's voice, and you know that the connundrum of premediated killing ordered by the Deity and His Law that says Thou Shall not murder are litterally opposing one another.

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JOHN3:17-- God only allows Satan to go so far and to counterfeit certain characteristics. For instance, we know that Satan will counterfeit the Second Coming of Christ. But he cannot counterfeit it so exactly that those in close connection with the Holy Spirit and who have studied their Bibles won't be able to see the difference between the true and the false.

In the same way, Satan has counterfeit love, a counterfeit sabbath, counterfeit marriages, counterfeit tongues, even a counterfeit holy spirit, etc., but yet those who study the truth and have the Holy Spirit living in them and guiding them will know the truth. For instance, there are those who do not know that God does not want men to marry men or women to marry woman. I also was confused on this point and used to believe in Satan's counterfeit marriages. I actually came very close to getting married to my gay partner. But we both went to a Quiet Hour evangelistic series instead and ended up giving our lives over to Christ and turning our back on our plans for marriage. The Holy Spirit illuminated our minds about that counterfeit of Satan. That is what happens when the Holy Spirit comes into a person's life. The Holy Spirit shows us truth through the proclamation of the gospel, studying the Word of God, and prayer. Without the Word, then, I wouldn't have known what is truth regarding gay marriage.

Ellen White has said that the only way those living at the end of time will know the truth is by the Holy Spirit. But they will know it because they have studied their Bibles and have a close walk with Christ. If it wasn't for that, they wouldn't know the truth any more than those who will accept what is false.

There is no evidence whatsoever that any of the prophets or apostles were ever confused about the difference between God's voice and Satan's voice. Nor is there anything in the Bible to give us reason that Abraham heard a voice from Satan that he considered possibly as originating from God. Nor is there any reason to believe that Ellen White did not know the difference between Satan's voice and God's voice.

This did happen to Mohammed, however. It is a matter of historical record, and admitted by Muslim historians, that in the beginning Mohammed believed the spirit who came to him was that of a demon. His wife persuaded him to accept the spirit, and so he did; so that the next time it came to him, Mohammed wrote down what the spirit told him to write at its dictation. Those words are among the last verses of the Qur'an.

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JOHN3:17--If God truly told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, it would not have been "murder."

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Excuse me, but what do you mean by "**IF** God truely told Abraham..."Look again at Gen. 22:1-2

1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you

Either God tested Abraham or He didn't. Which is it? I personally think that He did test Abraham...

Yes, of course God tested Abraham.

The word "if" used in that way carries the same meaning as "since." The word "if" is used that way in the NT. Here's one: "IF God is for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8: 31. Do you find that confusing? Are you asking Paul, "Wait just a minute! Is God for us or not?!!!"

I am tempted to say something here but I will bite my tongue.

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and the reason He tested him was because he failed Him so many times to save his own skin or improve on God's promises. For example, he didnt claim Sarah as his wife, but was his sister...Or he took Hagar as his 2nd wife, when God only wanted Abraham to have ONE wife....

Yes, quite true. Good point.

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JOHN3:17--In the same way, when the Israelites obeyed God in destroying the Philistines, it cannot truly be said that they committed "murder" in the Biblical sense. Did they kill? Yes, of course, but there is a clear difference between killing and murder. Every human society recognizes the distinction. Murder is the unlawful, willful taking of human life. Not all taking of human life meets that definition, wouldn't you agree?

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Ah, spiritual killings....if God asks you to do something, like killing, it isn't really killing/murder....it's...pseudo-killing??? right????

Sorry, murder is murder. Killing is killing. Murder is premeditated killing. And the 10 Commandment Law forbids it. It does not allow for human sacrifices to God, in any religion, Christian, Hebrew or pagan. And as much as Abraham believed that Issac would be resurrected from the dead, Abraham still had to take the life of Issac so as to bring about his resurrection.

Do you believe that the Israelites were committing "murder" and violating the Ten Commandments when they destroyed Jericho at God's command? Did Moses commit mass murder in Exodus 32:27, 28?

[Neil D]

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Do you believe that the Israelites were committing "murder" and violating the Ten Commandments when they destroyed Jericho at God's command? Did Moses commit mass murder in Exodus 32:27, 28?

The answer to these questions is "Yes"....but that is another subject and drifting away from this one...

The point is that each prophet tells of something of the character of God and His dealings with them. Since, according to Paul, we have the mind of Christ, we also [that is, the mature Christians] also are learning some aspect of God that may or may not be in the bible. If not, it may be a truely unique individual experience but not one for the universal church...perhaps like speaking in tongues was for the individual experience, but not for the universal church...

[John317]

OK, that is fair enough. That will be something to look forward to talking about in the near future-- but only once I first get a little shut-eye after being up all night.

[Woody]

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I first get a little shut-eye after being up all night.

I thought your eyes were always shut. !!!

[John317]

I notice that your 'pillars' are all from EGW and not the Bible. If they are in the Bible, than use it as a source and not EGW, as it is both a disrespect of her wishes and of the Bible itself.

These same 'pillars" are those you will find listed in the official beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church. They are doctrines found in the Bible as well as clearly set forth in the writings of Ellen White.

I don't know if you are a Seventh-day Adventists or not. If you are not, or if you do not believe in her as a prophet of God, that is your decision, of course. But you are wrong to believe that it is showing disrespect for Ellen White for Adventists to refer to what she said regarding the church.

Ellen White did not say we shouldn't quote her or discuss what she wrote or said. If you are interested in what she said or taught on this subject, you'll find a lot of what she about it on the first 20 or pages of Volume 1 of Selected Messages.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that the gift of prophecy "is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White-- the Lord's messenger. Her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." Fundamental Belief, #18.

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Your concerns seem to be more about 'weeding' out the church, which in my experience is a more conservative frame of mind, than in seeing what is good about the church and its goals. I will leave the 'weeding' to God, I think he has mentioned that is his work and not ours. ....

I am saying that the church has a right and responsibility to know the beliefs of people it accepts into membership and those who claim to represent its views. Anyone, though, can worship and fellowship at an Adventist church or with Adventists, of course.

A study of the NT and the writings of Ellen White show without question that the church itself has the responsibility to regulate who are allowed to become members. God has granted the church this responsibility and duty. See, for instance, 1 Cor. 5; Matt. 18: 15-20; 16: 19. This is an essential part of the church's responsibility.

I write constantly about what is good about the church and its goals. In fact, that is exactly what I have been writing about the whole time. It is impossible for the church's goal to be met if the church is not clear on what its goals are or if the goals are different from what the NT assigns to it. Its goals are essentially to prepare the world for Christ's Second Coming, in the same way that John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Christ's first coming.

Do you believe this?

[Woody]

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Ellen White did not say we shouldn't quote her or discuss what she wrote or said.

Ellen White did say that she should never be quoted from the pulpit. Some pastors believe in her enough to follow this injunction. Others blantantly disregard her.

If you want the quote ... just PM me. I didn't want to show you up by quoting it here.

[Woody]

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Your concerns seem to be more about 'weeding' out the church, which in my experience is a more conservative frame of mind, than in seeing what is good about the church and its goals. I will leave the 'weeding' to God, I think he has mentioned that is his work and not ours.

Thank you CoA. Good Points. I agree with you. Some here just love to take the opposite side of all issues so that they can debate. Some do not see the good in the church. They love to criticize it. I for one get real tired of this 'weeding' and criticism. We all fail and fall short. Lets show a little love and 'grace'. Our church has so much to offer. But let's not offer the weeding and criticism.

[John317]

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Ellen White did not say we shouldn't quote her or discuss what she wrote or said.

Ellen White did say that she should never be quoted from the pulpit. Some pastors believe in her enough to follow this injunction. Others blantantly disregard her.

If you want the quote ... just PM me. I didn't want to show you up by quoting it here.

Is the quote you're referring to found in The Story of Prophets and Kings (Mountain View, Calif.: Pacific Press Pub. Assn., 1943), p. 626?

Be that as it may, as far as concerns my use of Ellen White on this thread, her statement about using her writings in the pulpit could not in any case possibly apply here, since I am neither a pastor nor am I quoting her from any pulpit.

Here is what Roger Coon wrote about Mrs. White's statements on the Bible and the place of her writings in the pulpit:

At a camp meeting last spring an Adventist pastor from one of our North American colleges told this experience: One Sabbath, in a certain Sabbath school class taught by a professor on campus and attended by college students, the teacher started out by asking the class members individually what insights they had found in extrabiblical contemporary writings that would bear on the day's lesson study. Responses were offered by way of quotations from such helpful writers as Luther and Calvin, as well as Keith Miller, Paul Tournier, C. S. Lewis, and so on. Next the teacher asked for student reaction to the lesson, and a series of individual testimonies followed. At this point one member of the class, a college student well versed in the writings of Ellen White, said that she had found something helpful, something that met her need, in Mrs. White's writings; but before she could elaborate, the teacher cut her off with the remark, "Let's stay with 'The Bible and the Bible Only' in this class!" Ironically, up until that moment, the direct witness of the Bible had been totally absent from the class!

Ellen White, in addressing Sabbath school teachers in 1900, instructed them to "leave the impression upon the mind that the Bible, and the Bible alone, is our rule of faith." And in the last book she wrote before her death in 1915 she admonished the church's ministers that "the words of the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit." Did this mean, as some today allege, that her writings should never be incorporated into a sermon? Not at all.

In a helpful 37-page monograph Arthur L. White, for years the secretary of the Ellen G. White Estate at the General Conference (and himself a grandson of the prophet), surveys the position of the pioneers of our denomination and cites published statements not readily available to the present-day inquirer. He also examines the 13 major statements from Mrs. White's pen in which she used the Reformation slogan "The Bible and the Bible Only," and comes to four conclusions in summarizing the documentary evidence:

That at no time was this phrase employed to exclude the binding obligation to respond to the visions as light which God has given to His people.

That in most instances the words are employed in the setting of contrasting the teachings of God's Word with tradition or man's theories of a false Sabbath, et cetera.

In several cases the words are used in defining our position on the visions with the explanation that to follow the Bible enjoins the acceptance of the workings of the gift of prophecy as binding upon all who accept God's Word, which forecasts the appearance of this gift in the last days.

That through the visions God has led us to a correct understanding of His Word and has taught us and will continue to do so. Further, we must ever recognize our obligation to accept this leading of God.

Arthur White also points out that although the 13 major statements from Ellen White's pen span more than half a century (from 1851 to c. 1914), still the tenor of the statements at the end of her life are not appreciably different from the earliest statements written on the subject.[277] Mrs. White never changed her stand on this subject.

See source: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/rev-insp.html

[John317]

I believe the following is very important for all Adventists to be aware of and consider:

Seventh-day Adventists believe, upon the basis of biblical evidence as well as empirical data, that one "masterbuilder" (1 Corinthians 3:10) of their denomination, Ellen G. White, was the recipient of the gift of prophecy. Solomon averred that "there is no new thing under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9), and criticism of the prophets continues to this day.

Misunderstanding also continues concerning the manner in which the prophetic gift operates. Satan has a vested interest in creating confusion as well as rejection of the prophetic gift by the people it was intended to benefit, "for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded." The "very last deception of Satan" in the Seventh-day Adventist church just before Jesus returns will be the twofold work of (1) destroying the credibility of Ellen White as an authentic, reliable prophet of the Lord, and (2) creating a "satanic" "hatred" against her ministry and writings--satanic in its intensity as well as in its origin.

Satan's "special object" in these last days is to "prevent this light from coming to the people of God" who so desperately need it to walk safely through the minefield that the enemy of all souls has so artfully booby trapped.

And what is Satan's methodology for securing this objective? He will work "ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies." For example, in addition to the two methods mentioned above, satanic agencies seek to keep souls under a cloud of doubt, in a hurried state, and in a state of disappointment.

This is Satan's plan--his goal and his strategy. This minicourse is dedicated to the proposition that he shall not succeed!

[Marie]

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I think God has allowed the church to maintain different beliefs so that we can bring more into the fold.

I agree that God has allowed what is going on, knowing what it will all bring. But to say He does it so it will bring others in.... I can't say that. God never uses un-truth to bring others in whether it is in music types or preaching. He brings people in with Truth. Marie

[John317]

If you have been studying all the doctrines all these years, then why would you be asking for Bible verses? Bible verses in support of what?

Not sure what you are asking for.

I only asked you about being SDA or believing in Ellen White because I had no idea what your background is. If you are not SDA or if you dislike Ellen White, my approach about those things would be entirely different. For instance, if someone does not accept Ellen White, I wouldn't even bring her up. That is why I ask you about those things.

All of the fundamental SDA doctrines can stand very well on their own by the Bible alone. The reason I mentioned Ellen White is that as Adventists it's also important to know what our prophet said, of course; that is, if we really believe she is a true prophet.

If you want a Bible study on the SDA doctrines, that would be great, but we would need to devote a separate thread to different teachings. Let me know which doctrines interest you the most or which you would really like to participate in.

[Woody]

Great Post. Great Points. Thanks for sharing this with us CoA.

Red

[olger]

However we can glorify God ... it is good.

Pharoah brought glory to God and it wasn't very good for him.

The purpose of God in raising Pharaoh up, or causing him to stand, was that He might show to him , and in him, His power, and that His name might be declared throughout all the earth. This purpose was accomplished in the destruction of Pharaoh because of his own stubborn resistance. But you and I both know that it would have been accomplished just as well, and probably better if Pharaoh had listened to the word of God. (Certainly, it would have been better for Pharaoh)

Pharaoh saw God's power, but would not believe. If he had believed, he would have been saved, because the power of God is salvation to everyone that believeth (Romans 1:16). A wonderful and honorable position was offered to Pharaoh, but he knew not the day of his visitation. It involved humiliation, and he rejected it, just as many do today. But only by exercising their God- given, and God-protected, power of choice in the camp of tares, does one become one. The master sowed good seed in the field, remember?

As a consequence, Pharaoh lost everything; while Moses, who might have had the same throne, chose to suffer affliction with the people of God. The mercies of God rejected turn into curses. Hosea 14:19. As Nebuchadnezzar will someday affirm, it would have been better for the proud Pharaoh to yield to the design of God, instead of having that design worked out in spite of him. Nebuchadnezzar will one day be in the kingdom. Dan 4:37 Pharaoh will not.

[John317]

Very good points, Olger.

Here's something that goes right along with what you said:

In about 1976, the body of the Pharaoh who many historians believe was the Pharaoh of the Exodus (1445 BC) was transported to a museum in Britain, and due to a technical question regarding the law, his mummified body was labeled "Dead Fish."

So while Moses has been enjoying life with God in heaven for the last nearly 3,000 years, the mummified body of the Pharaoh has been in a coffin all this time and was sent to England in a box labelled as "Dead Fish."

Moses made a very wise choice to side with God, but it sure didn't look like it for a while. Someday the wisdom of the choice will be even more plain for the world to see.

[Taylor]

Love it!

[John317]

I learned this from Dr. Vine, an archeology and theology professor at Loma Linda U.