Silence

[Woody]

Quote:

1 Tim. 2:11 -12 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

I'm just wondering ... Did God give Ellen White special permission to disobey the commands of God as written here in 1 Timothy? OR did Paul not know that of which he was talkin about?

I also hear a lot of chatter here on the Forum ... authored by WOMEN. ...........

Us men need to stand up for our rights.

[Robert]

8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

Men tend to handle things with their fists....Instead, Paul says, lift your hands up in prayer.

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

Women tend to attract attention using their sexuality (revealing cloths, etc). So Paul gives them good advice here.

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

The way I read this is wives aren't to control their husbands. I see so many hen-pecked men controlled by their wives...it gets old. At the same time, men are to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

I have no idea what that means....

Rob

[olger]

Being the protector & provider that God has ordained for man will refine his character. Being the keeper at home and the mother will refine the character of the wife.

God designed men to be dominant with their love. This calls for spiritual leadership from men - a woman cannot respect a man who isn't the spiritual leader of their home.

God says that a gentle & quiet spirit in women is of great value to Him. The finer and more delicate nature of a woman is beautiful and therefore we are more offended when it is lacking. Feminism is not just about devaluing the male. It's also about changing the general human nature of women as well. It tries to make them like men while devaluing both.

Feminity & masculinity are the natural order of things. Feminism tries to change God's order. Tampering with God's order is sin.

What looks like a simple difference over the interpretation of Scripture easily slips into a subtle debate about it’s authority. And behind it all, the very nature of the Godhead is being questioned. To man and woman have been given the answer to a mystery. As in Ephesians 5, the sacrificial love of the husband, and the submission of the wife illustrate to a watching world what God is like. It is a mystery made known to all. Any disruption in these roles & relations result in a witness lost and a mystery stolen from those who would benefit by it.

[Woody]

Thanks Robert.

You make some good points.

[hooverdamsel]

Interesting Redwood. I think we also need to balance things up with the fact that God used women in the bible in positions of authority. Take Deborah for example. She was one of the judges of Israel and men came to her for advice. As a woman I find it confusing to read texts like that. Perhaps that text was more of a 'cultural' text, the same as women are supposed to cover their heads in the temple. That is not done today either.

I am not saying I am an expert on this - far be from it, but I would prefer to look at all the texts in the bible involving women.

[rush4hire]

Alot of critics have used this verse to reject the Adventist movement, as if they will be justified before God for breaking His law because the Adventist had a woman for a prophetess.

But I agree this has alot to do with feminism. The chapter is about authority and submission:

[color:#BF0000]1 Tim. 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

And ordination:

[color:#BF0000]1 Tim. 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

The SDA church follows this principle in that they do not ordain women to have a higher position than a man. For instance, women do not administer the sacraments or baptize. Ellen White never did either.

Ellen White never usurped authority over any man. The men heartily requested that she would speak in public, knowing the Lord had laid upon her the prophetic gift as He has with other women in the Bible.

Neither was this just culture or Paul being opinionated but this is very old principle:

[color:#BF0000]Gen. 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[color:#BF0000] 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

And that might also have something to do with the childbearing thing. Doug Bachelor said this means they will get a much easier labor, and back then women died in childbearing, so that would have been a precious promise:

[color:#BF0000]1 Tim. 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Exo. 1:19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women [are] not as the Egyptian women; for they [are] lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

[Woody]

Quote:

The SDA church follows this principle in that they do not ordain women to have a higher position than a man. For instance, women do not administer the sacraments or baptize.

Not sure where you pick up rumors like this ... but this one is completely false.

SDA Women all over the world are baptizing.

My wife is one also.

There is nothing that the church has against women doing baptisms. Many have been brought into the church by just this means. There is nothing radical about this. It is well accepted in our church.

And BTW ... the same applies to your false rumor about the 'sacraments'.

[Nan]

What do you mean by 'administer the sacraments', Rush4hire?

I was ordained an elder of the church about 20 years ago, and have certainly assisted at the ordinance/communion services, though not leading out. I am not currently serving as an elder but

my church has several female elders who do just as I have described. Sometimes the senior elder

has been female.

But perhaps you do not include assisting at communion services to mean administering the sacrments.

[Woody]

Women Pastors also 'lead' and 'administer' the communion service.

[rush4hire]

Not sure where you pick up rumors like this ... but this one is completely false.

SDA Women all over the world are baptizing.

My wife is one also.

I was not aware of this.

This is rebellion and apostasy, and kind of an abomination. There's no better way to say it.

This is confusion and a departure from the plain teachings of the Scriptures. It is our duty now to pray that problem will be fixed before it gets out of hand. If it's already out of hand, then God help us.

Am I the only one here?

[Woody]

Quote:

Am I the only one here?

_________________________

I guess I'm a legalist then.

Yes. This is the belief of the Seventh day Adventist Church. Are you a member of this church? We as SDAs believe in the use of women in ministry. There is neither male nor female for both are equal in the sight of God.

I would be interested in seeing the 'clear' word of God in relations to who is able to baptize and who is not. Also show me where it says 'when' a person is ready for baptism. That would be interesting also.

[rush4hire]

Yes. This is the belief of the Seventh day Adventist Church.

Where's your evidence that this is an official statement that women should fill the same roles as men in ministry, e.g. to conduct baptisms?

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/index.html

I looked there and couldn't find any thing.

Women can be ordained, but not to fill the roles of men.

[color:#BF0000]Duet. 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

When you start blurring the lines between the sexes like that, next thing you're going to be saying is that it's OK to be gay and we should baptize homosexuals before they give up their sinful lifestyle. And then you'll be justifying all kinds of sins.

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

You don't have to do the sins yourself to be a partaker of sins. You just need to tell the people it's OK, to give your approval.

[color:#BF0000]Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

You know better than that, Redwood. You are intelligent enough. You have no excuse.

[Woody]

Apparently the Seventh day Adventist Church does not share your interpretation of it's beliefs. Praise God. I would invite you to ask any conference if they have any prohibitions against women pastors giving communion or baptizing. I can give you the number for my conference if needed. Since they have instructed my wife to do it.

[rush4hire]

I wouldn't be surprised if such an abomination over-spread the church. If that's the case, then this is not a time for celebration, but for weeping:

[color:#BF0000]Ezekiel 9:4 ..Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.

Where is your number. I will call them. Where is your information. Why haven't you shown me anything from http://www.adventist.org/ or from any other official source?

What if it's just a small apostasy, and you are making it out like all the churches all over the world are doing this?

[cricket]

http://www.adventist.org/world_church/official_meetings/1995gcsession/070707ann.txt

[cricket]

Quote:

Pastors in Conversation

September 14, 2007 Simi Valley, California, United States

The world church, he said, has never taken the position that the "concept" of ordaining women is rejected by the Bible or the writings of church co-founder Ellen G. White.

"It's just a question of 'can we make this major change and still hold together as a global community?'"

Paulsen told Roda his response to women interested in ministry: "Respond to the call God has placed in your heart. Train for ministry, seek the profession, become engaged in it."

He pointed out that many women already effectively serve as pastors in local churches, including his niece.

He also called for women to be paid equally to men and acknowledged many women around the world are not asking to be ordained, but to function as a "legitimate minister."

"So many local churches are not open to receive them. ..."I think this is very, very unfortunate. They are part of our spiritual community."

"They are as trained and gifted and skilled as any man could possibly be. ...Please, use them," Paulsen said.

[rush4hire]

What a politician. That doesn't surprise me.

No wonder people have been sending their tithe to self-supporting ministries instead of to the conference. Now I understand that it's the only conscionable to do. If everyone knew about this and everyone who disagreed with it, sent their tithe elsewhere, then they respond and would make haste to fix the problem, and the church would experience a great reformation.

That president is not a man of God, but just a politician. That's most unfortunate. I suppose the tithe is also going to support the Celebration / New Theology movement too, huh?

[cricket]

Anyway, those are the Adventist positions you'd asked for.

There are a lot of things people do because it is the conscionable thing to do: even though they are often contrary to what they believe the word of God tells them.

Love won another.

[rush4hire]

That doesn't make any sense:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_...ation_practices

The Seventh-day Adventist Church officially does not ordain women. Recent votes at the worldwide General Conference Sessions turned down a proposal to allow ordination of women. There was a strong polarization between nations, with Western countries generally voting in support and other countries generally voting against. A further proposal to allow local choice was also turned down. In practice, there are numerous women working as ministers and in leadership positions. The most influential co-founder of the church, Ellen G. White, was a woman.

The good old fashioned churches have stuck with only ordaining men to fill the role of pastors, like the Roman Catholic Church. If we ordain women, then in that respect the RCC is more biblical than us.

The thing to do is to tell women ministers they are not allowed to conduct baptisms and they are not allowed to administer the sacraments. If they don't heed this, they will be fired.

I think one factor is the shortage of pastors. But I would say, ordain more elders to act as pastors. Ordain more pastors that are perfectly qualified though they may not have the formal education. Doug Bachelor doesn't have any college, and he does fine. These colleges are too expensive. Union is $20,000 / year. And they don't teach you how to be a good preacher. Some learn to preach in spite of the school, but there are so many fully educated preachers that are just extremely boring to listen to. Lullaby preachers. Tape them and play the sermon when you can't get to sleep. It will put you right to sleep better than Valium.

[cricket]

That doesn't make any sense:

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Not sure where you pick up rumors like this ... but this one is completely false.

SDA Women all over the world are baptizing.

My wife is one also.

I was not aware of this.

This is rebellion and apostasy, and kind of an abomination. There's no better way to say it.

This is confusion and a departure from the plain teachings of the Scriptures. It is our duty now to pray that problem will be fixed before it gets out of hand. If it's already out of hand, then God help us.

Am I the only one here?

You must purge the evil from among the camp, Rush. Got any stones?

[Woody]

We could make a list of the evil ones for Rush to stone. I will gladly start off the list with my name:

Redwood

[Woody]

And I'll add my wife to the list ... after all ... she is the real heathen that Rush is after :

Blanche

(The real one to blame for all those cultivated poppies.)

[Stan]

REMEMBER it was the Church Members, those who vote, turned this down, not the GC institution itself

[rush4hire]

Again, sometimes the conscionable thing to do is "against" what we've been taught through the ages to believe. Sometimes, you've just got to go nail a couple or 95 theses to a door.