Not so serious anymore

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I do believe that truth sets people free and if anyone is set free from this impossible to please god, then the time spent here is worth it.

Is it, then, part of your design or purpose in being here to set people "free" from God?

Well God is a pretty loaded word. I would say that essentially my goal is to set people free from a myth that creates shame and fear.

If you need a god word, then yes I think many people need to be set free from the god of the Bible or in others' words, "Freedom from religion."

[cardw]

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I do believe that truth sets people free and if anyone is set free from this impossible to please god, then the time spent here is worth it.

That sounds similar to Christianity.

Christ would die for just one person and consider it worth it.

I think these 2 cartoons from Russell's Teapot really say it for me...

(If they are too small to read, just right click on the images and open them up in a new window.)

Cartoon #1

Cartoon #2

[John317]

Yes, God is a word we use here on the Adventist Forum. I don't use "god" because I am talking about the living God who revealed Himself as Yahweh.

I wonder why the Forum should allow members to campaign against the very reasons for the existence of the Forum.

The primary purpose of the Forum is to be a spiritual help to people in a way that is in harmony with Seventh-day Adventist values and teachings.

It seems clear that you're here to try to defeat our purpose for being.

If you are here to discuss things and exchange views, that is fine, but I get the clear impression, based on your own words, that you are really here to discourage people from being Christians.

Would you please clear your private mail so I could make contact with you? I tried to send a PM but got a message that your limit has been reached. Thanks.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Hey Card W thank you for your openness. Actually we are kind of in the same situation. I agree that Rulers throughout the centuries have perverted the teachings of Christ in order to gain power and suppress others. What atheists often do is generalise the whole of Christianity. This is not the fault of Christ, but i believe that satan planned this. For instance, the vision of Charlemagne when he saw a cross as a sign that he should conquer the other nations, i am not sure whether these signs belong to God.

Actually we share many thoughts. Some things don t seem to make sense, however Christianity is the next best alternative to atheism because it explains a lot. Actually i am glad you are on this board too because there are wayy too many cognitive dissonance reducing Christians out there, always trying to rationalise away common sense.

I think that the sacrifice of Christ can be seen as the result of God his own laws which he set for the entire universe including himself. It s like he paid the price that we were supposed to pay. I agree that it seems unfair to let unforgiven people pay a cruel price for a life they didn t ask for, however by his sacrifice Christ demonstrated that God can never allow sin. When you think about the fact that we are all his creations, he might consider us as himself, thereby wishing to remove his unrighteousness from himself. As long as we live in him we have got nothing to fear, because being in Christ can only be the result when he accepts you. He accepts you because he is able to forgive you. He forgives you so you can be a part of him again. Everything that is not from him, is from satan. Actually the whole judgement idea, at large, is about two systems. I think everybody wants to live in God s system. Everybody who does not allow temptation to take controll, so they won t eat of the satanic fruits, belongs to God.

Well i don t know actually, Christianity is a very complicated issue. Maybe we both don t really know the character of God, and maybe the bible pictures God different than he really is.

Anyway according to David Gates, Jesus has to come back before 2031. So if there is a devil, we will probably see the tricks coming out of his magick box. If prophecies come true, we ll see the devil working more openly.

Card W to me, you are very welcome here, eventually you are also looking for truth. I think Christianity is worth converting too because of several reasons. The bible explains everything we see around us; the trees, the animals, the landscape, male and female, seas, the sun and the moon, wars, prophecies, the survival of the bible and thousands of other things. Evolution doesn t have clear answers to these things...

[cardw]

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I wonder why the Forum should allow members to campaign against the very reasons for the existence of the Forum.

Well, I'm sure you will have a lovely time discussing among yourselves. That's why Christianity has gotten itself where it is today. It basically closed itself off from any critical analysis. In the early days it did it by physical force and the destruction of any literature that might reveal any flaws in its formation. Today it often is by self imposed isolation and denial.

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It seems clear that you're here to try to defeat our purpose for being.

I sense that one purpose for your being is the free exchange of ideas. I certainly am for compassion and the ethical treatment of every person. So I wouldn't say that I here to defeat all of your purposes for being.

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If you are here to discuss things and exchange views, that is fine, but I get the clear impression, based on your own words, that you are really here to discourage people from being Christians.

I not here to discourage people from being loving, compassionate, and joyful. But, yes, I am here to discourage people from accepting many parts of the Christian message as true because it takes away people's ability to be loving, compassionate, and joyful. I also believe that it is unavoidably abusive to teach a child that some god will kill them if they don't accept Jesus as their Savior. This idea is so deeply entrenched that most Christians see this as a good thing, so this probably won't change in my lifetime. I'm trying to avoid hiding anything here. There is no bait and switch going on.

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Would you please clear your private mail so I could make contact with you? I tried to send a PM but got a message that your limit has been reached. Thanks.

Done, I hadn't realized I was so popular.

[cardw]

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Actually we share many thoughts. Some things don t seem to make sense, however Christianity is the next best alternative to atheism because it explains a lot.

I'm actually agnostic. I am of the opinion that no one knows and that if some God exists, that God is unknowable in any rational sense. I think many people are agnostic, even though they aren't aware of it.

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The bible explains everything we see around us; the trees, the animals, the landscape, male and female, seas, the sun and the moon, wars, prophecies, the survival of the bible and thousands of other things. Evolution doesn t have clear answers to these things...

I can understand why someone might want the certainty that a belief in the Bible gives. It provides a clear sense of where one comes from and can provide a framework to define one's purpose for being.

I have learned to live without certainty and come to a place where I am quite content to explore all the mysteries of this world without having all the answers. I think it is the ego the needs to know everything before it can be happy.

And I don't believe that Evolution ever claimed to have clear answers. I think Christians often project their own motivations for truth onto other systems of thought without really understanding the context in which those truths are presented.

[Woody]

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But, yes, I am here to discourage people from accepting many parts of the Christian message as true because it takes away people's ability to be loving, compassionate, and joyful.

Card ... I was wondering if you could briefly make a list in just a general way the parts of the Christian message that take away people's ability to be loving etc.

I think that you might find that the list is ways that you personally in your present walk ... find to be harmful. But others like some of us here ... find it to actually be helpful.

For example ... the Sabbath issue. I find that the Sabbath is the energizer bunny for me. But for you ... it may be oppressive and unloving. Can we differ? Can you accept that I find the Sabbath to be a loving experience and it helps me to be able to love?

If you find the Sabbath for example to be oppressive ... I would not want you to participate in it until you feel God telling you and showing you.

But this is just my guessing and giving one example. I would like it if you could briefly make a list and try to hear others personal perspectives.

This is unless you have been banned. I hope not.

[Gail]

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That being said, I also believe that the Christian religion in its fundamental form is abusive and harmful to society. I don't believe that Christians per se are malicious, but their ignorance about the source of their religion has fostered a self perpetuating system of shame and guilt. The religion itself claims to offer a cure to the very condition it causes.

I do believe that truth sets people free and if anyone is set free from this impossible to please god, then the time spent here is worth it.

Do you see anyone here who is abused and harmed from the Christian religion? Who?

The other question I would like to ask is- If others are happy in their spiritual walk, is it fair that you would want to impose your viewpoint on them for the purpose of changing them?

Why would you want to purposely counteract the fellowship that the forum intends for its members? That fellowship does include Christianity.

[Guest truthseeker007]

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"have learned to live without certainty and come to a place where I am quite content to explore all the mysteries of this world without having all the answers. I think it is the ego the needs to know everything before it can be happy."

This is exactly the attitude that got me into troubles with occultism. I was willing to believe every sign of the supernatural. It is dangerous when you are planning to actively search for the supernatural while rejecting the bible. It s your life though...

[cardw]

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"have learned to live without certainty and come to a place where I am quite content to explore all the mysteries of this world without having all the answers. I think it is the ego the needs to know everything before it can be happy."

This is exactly the attitude that got me into troubles with occultism. I was willing to believe every sign of the supernatural. It is dangerous when you are planning to actively search for the supernatural while rejecting the bible. It s your life though...

This is really the same thing. When I talk about exploring mysteries, I'm not talking about the exploration of some mythical Satanic powers. These are simply the same fear based superstitions, except the way to gain control is using a different mythical power. This is still ego based.

The mysteries I'm talking about are the known and observable mysteries of the universe such as the meaning of life, how things work, how did we get here, etc. These provide many opportunities for wonder and awe without attributing them to the god of the Bible.

A world view that sees us battling some superior evil power is a world view of fear and powerlessness. And if one's god doesn't come through, then what is one left with?

[cardw]

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Card ... I was wondering if you could briefly make a list in just a general way the parts of the Christian message that take away people's ability to be loving etc.

Let me put this in terms of a story. By the time I was around 12, I tested out at a college reading level. I'm telling you this not to trumpet my intelligence, but to make a point about what an authoritarian literal belief system does to someone who has the intelligence to reason.

When I was that age I was taught by what I read in Ellen White and in the Bible that God would be pleased to have me study and He would give me understanding. I took this very seriously and read every Ellen White book I could get my hands on and I studied the SDA Bible commentary and learned how to use Young's concordance, etc. Ellen White also taught that one of the most important things to understand would be how we might become saved.

Now when you take the intelligence to reason, read, and understand and combine that with a young naive faith in what people tell you is true you have a lethal combination when one tries to make sense of the plan of salvation. With the full authority of Ellen White and the Bible saying that there is an advanced rational system behind the Christian belief, one never even considers that maybe when something doesn't make sense its nonsense.

That would be fine if understanding these things didn't involve one's eternal life. Ellen White talks quite often of the fearful consequences of not getting this knowledge and the Bible has an even deeper threat of the unpardonable sin which involves a sin against the holy spirit. These are just a few of the unsolvable contradictions within the Christian belief system. One simply has to look at all the debates within the various Christian belief systems to understand that no one really knows or understands this critical knowledge.

Now if you take this stuff seriously the emotional conflict that results is terrible. Most Christians don't have quite the severe reaction that I did simply because they can't keep track of all the various threads of reasoning. And many simply give up on trying to figure it out and find comfort in the loving community of their church. The problem was that I could keep track of all the theology and the truth is that Christianity presents many "truths" that contradict each other or provide situations where one is always left to blame. These are basic to its core doctrines. And the core is based on fear.

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For example ... the Sabbath issue. I find that the Sabbath is the energizer bunny for me. But for you ... it may be oppressive and unloving. Can we differ? Can you accept that I find the Sabbath to be a loving experience and it helps me to be able to love?

The Sabbath is not an issue for me in this context because it sounds like you are simply finding something that provides you rest and recovery. There is nothing wrong with that. Now, and I can give you a lot of evidence, the Sabbath within Adventism is connected to loyalty to God, the mark of the beast, and a death penalty. And there is severe warnings within Ellen White to those who don't keep the Sabbath correctly.

There is no rational explanation for this, but simply that God thinks its important and its up to us to figure out how to keep it correctly. The problem is the consequences for not figuring this out are pretty fearful. There is simply no sure way to know if you are keeping the Sabbath properly since God doesn't give us much feedback other than written threats of death.

I believe what many of you do is to pick and choose what you believe is important until you come to a place where you can live with it. If you try to follow all of it literally, you'll go crazy.

That is why Christianity is abusive, particularly to children who tend to trust what adults tell them.

[cardw]

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Do you see anyone here who is abused and harmed from the Christian religion? Who?

I really can't speak to that since I would be guessing. I do know that I observe a low level of fear within most Christian communities that I have encountered. Many of these communities are nice people, but there is a fearful carefulness in speech and in the sharing of ideas as if they made one mistake all would be lost.

Obviously not everyone is like this, but a fairly large majority of Christians that I meet seem to be sort of looking over their shoulder all the time. I think this stems from the basic tenets of the Christian myth and the fearful consequences of not getting it right.

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The other question I would like to ask is- If others are happy in their spiritual walk, is it fair that you would want to impose your viewpoint on them for the purpose of changing them?

If someone is happy in their walk and are free from fear, then nothing I can say is going to change that. But, if you find yourself feeling afraid by some of the things I say, then you might want to pay attention to that and see what it says about the solidness of your beliefs and if you really believe them.

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Why would you want to purposely counteract the fellowship that the forum intends for its members? That fellowship does include Christianity.

Well if a fellowship falls apart because its questioned then its not a very strong fellowship in the first place. That's my take on it.

Look, I am not speaking against love, peace, or joy. Christians seem to think that there is only one way to find that state of being. Or, if you have that state of being and you aren't practicing the officially licensed version of Christianity then you must be deceived. To me, that's fear based and fear is counter to the capability to love. Fear crops up in so many places within the beliefs that many Christians have and as long as these systems remain unquestioned that fear will continue to produce its fruit.

On an individual basis this effect is going to be all over the map. When I look at the history of Christianity in general the effect is rather striking. Christianity as a movement does not lend itself within the majority of its history as a loving movement. It has only been after the enlightenment and the age of reason that Christianity has been taken out of the seat of power and has been moderated not from inside, but from a secular humanistic movement outside.

[John317]

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Do you see anyone here who is abused and harmed from the Christian religion? Who?

I really can't speak to that since I would be guessing. I do know that I observe a low level of fear within most Christian communities that I have encountered. Many of these communities are nice people, but there is a fearful carefulness in speech and in the sharing of ideas as if they made one mistake all would be lost.

Obviously not everyone is like this, but a fairly large majority of Christians that I meet seem to be sort of looking over their shoulder all the time. I think this stems from the basic tenets of the Christian myth and the fearful consequences of not getting it right.

You admit here that you would be guessing, and that is true. You also use phrases such as "as if," "seem," "sort of," and "I think," all of which show the subjective nature of your feelings and thoughts about whether people are harmed by the Christian religion. If you reflect on this, you will no doubt see that your observations and conclusions are not objective but are influenced by your subjective experiences and preconceptions.

We respect your ideas and feelings about the nature of the influence of Christianity, and we're glad to talk to you about them. However, as I'm sure you understand, there are limits to what people can post on the Forum. For instance, it isn't appropriate to post anti-Christian cartoons for the purpose of trying to "free" people from God and Christ or the church.

BTW, there is quite a bit of material that shows the benefits of faith in God. For instance, one well-known book about prisoners of war in China during the Japanese occupation showed that those who had a religious faith were unselfish and survived better than those who had no religious faith.

Have you heard of or read Victor Frankel's book, Man's Search For Meaning? It is somewhat related.

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The other question I would like to ask is- If others are happy in their spiritual walk, is it fair that you would want to impose your viewpoint on them for the purpose of changing them?

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If someone is happy in their walk and are free from fear, then nothing I can say is going to change that. But, if you find yourself feeling afraid by some of the things I say, then you might want to pay attention to that and see what it says about the solidness of your beliefs and if you really believe them.

It's not a question of whether moderators are afraid of what you say. There are other issues involved. If people want to read anti-Christian material, there are plenty of sites where that sort of thing is posted. But the Forum has not been organized for that purpose. This is a Seventh-day Adventist forum and our purpose for being is obviously related to the Adventist message and church. We welcome everyone but of course the forum reserves the right to make rules and standards regarding the content of the posts and the threads.

It looks like you may be taking Gail's question as a personal one, as if she is afraid for herself. That is not the case at all.

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Why would you want to purposely counteract the fellowship that the forum intends for its members? That fellowship does include Christianity.

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Well if a fellowship falls apart because its questioned then its not a very strong fellowship in the first place. That's my take on it.

The strength of the fellowship is not the point.

Would it be right, in your judgment, for anyone to join a group for the conscious, deliberate purpose of counteracting the group's purpose? How long will someone who does this find themselves welcome by the group?

[Guest truthseeker007]

Card W i am sorry for your negative experiences with Christianity. In a couple of years i went through the same experiences. I think the problem has nothing to do with Christianity, it s about the abuse of Christianity. Within the church, there are a lot of people wanting to be the greatest, they tell others exactly how they should live or they are doomed to hell. Let me tell you that this is not Christian at all. Christianity is about freedom in Christ, we can all experience this in a different way. There is no universal standard whereby we are judged. We are judged each like we judge about others. So for some it might be enough to keep the sabbath differently than others, as long as you pay your thanksgiving and respect to God from the heart.

I kind of understand what you have been through. You try hard to love God at a way you think is right, then a 1000 conflicting thoughts come to your mind, causing anger and distrust. Then you feel so terrible, that even if there was such a biblical God, you don t want to know him. So now you are seeking comfort in the intellect of man, comfort in atheism or anything else that is contrary to the biblical God. I think we should think of the bible like it s words consist of water. It is formless and it s shape can adapt to different situations. What you have been experiencing is exactly what the Pharisees did, they knew the writings very well and were very strict with the rules but their heart was far away from God. I think you should get rid of all the threats of the bible and start loving God simply from the heart. Then if anyone tries to be a judge and discourages you with deaththreats, you can tell him he is perversing the spirit of Christ.

At least that s the way i handle it. Some things from Ellen White seem completely rubbish to me, and some acts in the bible i don t quite understand. But i believe the love of Christ is something that you can experience every moment of the day through the power of the holy spirit. It isn t necessary to be perfect. I geuss you are a perfectionist like me, trying to do the right stuff. I would say that God considers perfectionism when you follow Christ from the heart. For instance, in the new testament we read about some people who hold back money for themselves, rather than spend it to the mission of Christ. They received the death penalty, not because of the nature of the act, but because every kind of disobedience to God results in death. Every kind of disobedience to God is obedience to satan. Now, if you start following God from the heart you can hold on to that, don t let others decide for you how you should worship God. Read the bible and let it be poured into your soul like liquid.

[Nan]

The core of my Christianity is hope, not fear.

I can expand on this if you wish. You probably think you could predict the words I would write. Possibly, and possibly not.

[cardw]

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You admit here that you would be guessing, and that is true. You also use phrases such as "as if," "seem," "sort of," and "I think," all of which show the subjective nature of your feelings and thoughts about whether people are harmed by the Christian religion. If you reflect on this, you will no doubt see that your observations and conclusions are not objective but are influenced by your subjective experiences and preconceptions.

By your own report I am admitting that much of this is subjective. I'm not sure what your point is other than to suggest that your position is more objective than mine. I may be guessing in terms of individuals, but I think history reveals the violent nature of those claiming to be Christians. And in this context I simply refused to make any statement of motive in regards to an individual because I would be guessing. In addition it is true that a belief in Christianity does not always result in violence. My point is that the seeds of violence and fear are in the belief system itself, not the individual, in many cases.

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BTW, there is quite a bit of material that shows the benefits of faith in God. For instance, one well-known book about prisoners of war in China during the Japanese occupation showed that those who had a religious faith were unselfish and survived better than those who had no religious faith.

Have you heard of or read Victor Frankel's book, Man's Search For Meaning? It is somewhat related.

I am quite familiar with Viktor Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning." It was from this source experience that Viktor Frankl developed his therapeutic technique called logotherapy to help people recover from post traumatic events, particularly long term sustained trauma.

From his experience in prison camp he observed and theorized that when a person lost their ability to gain meaning from their life, they would die. He concluded that meaning was unconditional. In other words, all one had to do was believe something had meaning.

This says nothing about Christianity being a better way to find meaning. In fact it suggest that anything that someone believes is true for meaning would provide meaning. It is unconditional.

This may suggest why Christians, having no other alternative for meaning, have difficulty when the mythologic nature of the belief is presented. If I have no way of finding meaning other than my belief in Christianity, then to have it threatened would be perceived as a threat to my own life. Christianity sets this up because it is taught that Christianity is the one and only true religion.

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We respect your ideas and feelings about the nature of the influence of Christianity, and we're glad to talk to you about them. However, as I'm sure you understand, there are limits to what people can post on the Forum. For instance, it isn't appropriate to post anti-Christian cartoons for the purpose of trying to "free" people from God and Christ or the church.

I appreciate the respect. I would like to note that these were presented in response to questions about the issues the cartoons bring up. I thought they presented the paradox of Christian belief quite well. There is nothing in either cartoon that is not present in the Christian belief system as reported by its followers.

If you don't like my answers, then I guess that will have to be OK. I am certainly willing to refrain from posting cartoons.

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This is a Seventh-day Adventist forum and our purpose for being is obviously related to the Adventist message and church. We welcome everyone but of course the forum reserves the right to make rules and standards regarding the content of the posts and the threads.

I am not questioning the right for you to make the rules. I am willing to abide by them as I understand them. I don't believe that I have complained about the rules. I think its reasonable to be able to question the rules, but I'm certainly not upset or angry or offended.

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It looks like you may be taking Gail's question as a personal one, as if she is afraid for herself. That is not the case at all.

I'm not taking any of this personal, nor am I complaining that you might disagree with me or want to make rules about what I post. And I'm sure that Gail is not afraid for herself.

What I would like to point out in her question is a very subtle shift in meaning that might give us an insight into how the myth of persecution is used to deflect critical ideas to Christianity. I don't know if Gail has some fear operating or not, but the way in which the question is worded does give me some insight. Here is the question again.

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The other question I would like to ask is- If others are happy in their spiritual walk, is it fair that you would want to impose your viewpoint on them for the purpose of changing them?

The key word is impose. This would suggest that I hold the ability to impose my ideas on someone else. The truth is that I hold no power to make rules or to dictate what any other adult believes or doesn't believe. And since I'm in the minority here, I certainly don't have the power of numbers.

But somehow I have the ability to victimize Christians who are happy in their spiritual walk by imposing my viewpoint on them. This is rather odd since Christians have been actively pointing out to everyone, who will listen to them, the superiority of their belief. This is called the "Great Commission." The order is to go out and MAKE disciples of everyone you can. And I certainly had Christian beliefs and doctrines imposed on me as a child. I am not saying this from a position of anger, but simply a point of fact.

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Would it be right, in your judgment, for anyone to join a group for the conscious, deliberate purpose of counteracting the group's purpose? How long will someone who does this find themselves welcome by the group?

Well, if I really wanted to be effective in counteracting a group's purpose, I wouldn't tell them about it. By being honest about it, it essentially disarms it. My statements are more about my belief in the harmful teachings of Christianity than it is about counteracting a group's purpose. I think you are generalizing my intents too much.

[Bravus]

I think the point has been made here before that, if we're confident in our faith, we needn't fear questions and challenges. 'Iron sharpens iron', and someone asking us to explain ourselves and defend our beliefs helps us both to reaffirm those beliefs and to find ways to communicate them that are meaningful to others. I enjoy Richard's (cardw's) posts here and the thoughtful ways he participates in the discussion, and his respect for others' beliefs and values, and believe he, along with others who question and challenge, are essential to the healthy operation of these forums.

[cardw]

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Card W i am sorry for your negative experiences with Christianity.

Well, thank you, but I'm not sorry for myself at this point in my life. The struggle with those experiences has provided many gifts and insights. I would do it the same. I don't wish it on anyone else, since a positive outcome is not guaranteed.

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So now you are seeking comfort in the intellect of man, comfort in atheism or anything else that is contrary to the biblical God.

Well intellect is not a very good source of comfort and defining my life by what I am against is not all that helpful either.

When I shifted my beliefs, I removed the need for comfort within this area of my life. I'm not saying that I no longer need comfort for times when life is difficult, but as far as a general need for comfort, that passed when I stopped trying to make sense out of nonsense.

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I think you should get rid of all the threats of the bible and start loving God simply from the heart. Then if anyone tries to be a judge and discourages you with deaththreats, you can tell him he is perversing the spirit of Christ.

I think its more efficient to simply get rid of the Bible. From what I understand of the points that Jesus made is that loving my fellow human beings is loving God. Now if I take the things from the bible that work and have permission to dump the rest, that pretty much solves the problem. I don't have to waste time trying to make the god of the OT good and just, which really is impossible.

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At least that s the way i handle it. Some things from Ellen White seem completely rubbish to me, and some acts in the bible i don t quite understand. But i believe the love of Christ is something that you can experience every moment of the day through the power of the holy spirit.

Well, I experience love and compassion and my life is filled with a lot of pretty wonderful things, but I don't believe that it comes from the god of the Bible or any other god that I can describe or name.

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For instance, in the new testament we read about some people who hold back money for themselves, rather than spend it to the mission of Christ. They received the death penalty, not because of the nature of the act, but because every kind of disobedience to God results in death. Every kind of disobedience to God is obedience to satan.

OK, what happened to all the love. This is a terrible idea. How do I know that God isn't going to kill me if I hold something back? I have certainly done things as bad as these people. I have certainly have and continue to break the Sabbath as Adventists understand that. If I believed this to be true, I wouldn't promise god anything, because promising god something is kind of like joining the mafia. Once your in, the only way out is death.

And this idea that Satan gets the default position, is simply giving a pretty scary sounding being way too much power within this crazy system of belief. Its seems like an all powerful god could reign this guy in a little more efficiently than he has, if we are to believe that Satan is the cause of all the terrible things that happen on earth.

It is simply easier to just let all of this stuff go. I can, because I know the history, I know how people make up religions today, and I am a little more savy to the exaggerations and magical thinking of ancient writers.

[cardw]

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The core of my Christianity is hope, not fear.

I believe that the core of your personal belief is probably hope. But I also believe that you pick and choose which parts of the Bible you are going to emphasize and you probably ignore parts of the Bible or dismiss these parts as God's mysterious ways or you redefine the violence of god in the OT as love and/or justice.

My point is that the seeds of violence and intolerance are simply dormant because moderate Christians can believe that every word in the Bible is inspired and at the same time treat people in a far superior way than the example of the OT god in the Bible. I think that fundamental Christians are correct in stating that many other more moderate Christians aren't Biblical.

When you study the first three centuries of the formation of the Christian Church you have a very OT style of violence and war. This goes full scale by the middle ages. This is core method of Christianity from the beginning historically. There are certainly individual exceptions, but, in general, the more Biblical a culture is, the more violent.

[Woody]

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I believe what many of you do is to pick and choose what you believe is important until you come to a place where you can live with it. If you try to follow all of it literally, you'll go crazy.

I agree with this. But I don't find it abusive.

[Woody]

Card ... Since you are here ... I would ask you to try to get to know some of us. Try the Chat Room. You might find that you like some of us Christians. And if you could find common ground ... that would be a more pleasant experience. And we might actually be more able to learn from you also.

[Woody]

Card. The more I read your posts ... the more I am convinced that you have the wrong image of the church and of God. In no way do I fault you for the way you believe now. I would have done the same thing if I believed as you. For you have rejected an evil image of the church and of God. I don't think God would fault you for that.

[cardw]

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I believe what many of you do is to pick and choose what you believe is important until you come to a place where you can live with it. If you try to follow all of it literally, you'll go crazy.

I agree with this. But I don't find it abusive.

I don't believe this is abusive either. I think you may be confusing my ideas about corporate Christianity with individual Christians.

[cardw]

Card ... Since you are here ... I would ask you to try to get to know some of us. Try the Chat Room. You might find that you like some of us Christians. And if you could find common ground ... that would be a more pleasant experience. And we might actually be more able to learn from you also.

Thanks for invite. I will look for activity there.

I don't dislike individual Christians. And I haven't found this discussion to be unpleasant at all. I certainly respect everyone's sincerity.

I am very comfortable with who I am, so I welcome different ideas. If you could hear my tone of voice, it would be very even and matter of fact. I can understand how it might come across as hurt or angry.

I simply am very honest with what I think and what I question. And I don't hold against anyone else who does the same.

[cardw]

I may be absent from this discussion for a while. My father died today suddenly and I'm sure you can understand that my energies need to be placed elsewhere for now.

I wanted to let everyone know that my absence is not because I'm offended or angry. Thanks for your understanding!

Richard