Seal the Door

[Neil D]

I gave up fighting the world long ago. Life is too short and I value my peace of mind too much. I once a member of a church that I thought did most everything wrong. I finally got tired of beating my head on the wall and found a church that believes like I believe. Life is so much more peaceful when I am surrounded with like-minded believers.

[olger]

This is what I have learned so far..

I posted a similar message on a secular board and received several suggestions from the folks there about how they strengthened their marriages.

On this christian board, the same message received several lame arguments designed to put asunder what God hath joined together. And, not one suggestion on how to enrich our marriages.

night,

oG

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Sounds to me like you were ready for fightin'....

I certainly am willing to defend my faith outside of my church. However I am not willing to go to church and fight with the others in attendance about the doctrines we are suppose to hold dear. I left those fighting days behind and found a church of like-minded believers.

[Bravus]

We definitely don't want to get divorced, and want to stay married forever, but have approached it in a different way. We have said "divorce can happen to anyone, and it could happen to us if we let it - so what should we do each day to build and strengthen our marriage?" I'm not sure the metaphor of a locked and welded steel door is a particularly positive one, although I do get what you're trying to convey by it. But if you spend all your days pounding on the steel door and screaming, not sure what kind of marriage that'd be! Rather, a door that is open, but that we choose each day not to walk through, actually seems to require more courage and commitment to one another.

[Woody]

Good Post CoA. I agree with you . But I have been there and done that. I have always hated divorce and no not feel it is God's plan. Sometimes ... you do not get to choose. It is chosen for you. But your point that we have to walk in the other persons moccasins is true. However ... since I have been there and done that ... this is one reason I know that divorce is NOT the answer.

[carolaa]

We definitely don't want to get divorced, and want to stay married forever, but have approached it in a different way. We have said "divorce can happen to anyone, and it could happen to us if we let it - so what should we do each day to build and strengthen our marriage?" I'm not sure the metaphor of a locked and welded steel door is a particularly positive one, although I do get what you're trying to convey by it. But if you spend all your days pounding on the steel door and screaming, not sure what kind of marriage that'd be! Rather, a door that is open, but that we choose each day not to walk through, actually seems to require more courage and commitment to one another.

Excellent post. One thing I have observed over the years is that people who favor the sealed door idea are often using guilt to keep their spouse reined in, because they are afraid, for good reason, that their own behavior might drive them away. So instead of actively trying to build up their marriage and be a better spouse, they passively use guilt to keep their spouse from leaving a relationship that most reasonable people would leave. It's particularly effective within the church, because often that's where a person's support system is, and if the support system is complicit in applying guilt tactics, the person will not leave until they are so miserable they are willing to leave their support system as well. It's sad when the church attempts to speak for God in this way, because that really compounds the guilt, and then when a person does finally leave, they will leave God too. The good news is that they often come back to God when they get away from the guilt tactics, get some counseling, and realize God is not condemning them but is with them.

[carolaa]

Good Post CoA. I agree with you . But I have been there and done that. I have always hated divorce and no not feel it is God's plan. Sometimes ... you do not get to choose. It is chosen for you. But your point that we have to walk in the other persons moccasins is true. However ... since I have been there and done that ... this is one reason I know that divorce is NOT the answer.

It's true that sometimes one spouse does not get to choose, and that's very sad. But it's also true that sometimes divorce IS the only answer.

[carolaa]

Most people who get so vehement against divorce.....well, lets just say, walk in the other persons shoes before opening mouth and sticking foot in it!

For sure!! Those who say divorce is easy simply do not know what they're talking about. Best to ignore them.

[Dr. Shane]

Most people who get so vehement against divorce.....well, lets just say, walk in the other persons shoes before opening mouth and sticking foot in it!

My comments about church doctrine were not limited to divorce. I suppose I didn't word them well.

Divorce has two sides to look at. One side is the spouses getting divorced. The other side are the children affected.

As far as experience goes I can top the combined five marriages of CoAspen and his wife. My mother was married nine times to five husbands and my father was married three times to two wives. That is a combined twelve marriages. More than twice as many as CoAspen and his wife combined.

I suggest anyone interested in this subject to read The Divorce Culture

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

We definitely don't want to get divorced, and want to stay married forever, but have approached it in a different way. We have said "divorce can happen to anyone, and it could happen to us if we let it - so what should we do each day to build and strengthen our marriage?" I'm not sure the metaphor of a locked and welded steel door is a particularly positive one, although I do get what you're trying to convey by it. But if you spend all your days pounding on the steel door and screaming, not sure what kind of marriage that'd be! Rather, a door that is open, but that we choose each day not to walk through, actually seems to require more courage and commitment to one another.

Excellent post. One thing I have observed over the years is that people who favor the sealed door idea are often using guilt to keep their spouse reined in, because they are afraid, for good reason, that their own behavior might drive them away. So instead of actively trying to build up their marriage and be a better spouse, they passively use guilt to keep their spouse from leaving a relationship that most reasonable people would leave. It's particularly effective within the church, because often that's where a person's support system is, and if the support system is complicit in applying guilt tactics, the person will not leave until they are so miserable they are willing to leave their support system as well. It's sad when the church attempts to speak for God in this way, because that really compounds the guilt, and then when a person does finally leave, they will leave God too. The good news is that they often come back to God when they get away from the guilt tactics, get some counseling, and realize God is not condemning them but is with them.

Wow. Where do I begin with this? You greatly misunderstood something Carol. Seal the door is an affirmation of the God-given spirit of perseverence, the final quality of the redeemed. "He that overcometh.." "He that endures.."

Spin it however you wish, but divorce is always the "easy" way out of committment. It is the treachery of violence according to Malachi. It is the exaltation of pride, for "only by pride cometh contention" (Proverbs 13:10). To those who have transgressed this covenant, let them find forgiveness and healing and let them turn from their ways and teach men so.

Being true to the covenant we make with God has NOTHING to do with guilt...sheesh. It has to do with obedience.

rant over,

[Bravus]

You addressed Carol's response to my comments, olger, but not my original post. How do you respond to the alternative image, given that both ways of thinking are absolutely committed to the permanence and sanctity of marriage?

[carolaa]

Spin it however you wish, but divorce is always the "easy" way out of committment.

So I guess I can assume you have never been through it. I can assure you your comment is not true.

[Taylor]

Wow Shane...what a rough life for you growing up! Not fun at all. I am impressed that you are in a committed relationship with you lovely wife and your adorable kids. Keep it up! May you be a united family always here on this earth and in heaven.

[Dr. Shane]

I thank God for every day of my marriage and do not take it for granted. Studies show that the husband in a bad marriage normally doesn't realize it until his wife leaves him. So I am ever trying to be the husband my wife needs and a good father to our children. I know very well that despite my efforts I could come home one day and find the house empty. I pray that never happens but I cannot control other people. If my wife were to decide to leave me for whatever reason, I cannot stop her nor would I try.

Divorce is tragic on children. Children of divorce are not only more likely to divorce themselves when they are adults, they are less likely to finish high school or graduate college. They are more likely to have children out of wedlock. Children of divorce also earn on average less than children raised in a nuclear family (if when such families are highly dysfunctional). Not only are children of divorce less likely to attend church on a regular basis, they are more likely to end up in prison. Some spouses that fight all the time think that the divorce is better for the children because the children won't have to listen to all the fighting anymore. That is wrong-headed logic. Studies show the opposite is true. Even children from abusive nuclear families do better out in the real world than children from divorced homes.

Now that is not to say I am against divorce entirely. I believe divorce is like war. It is terrible and should be avoided at all costs but sadly, sometimes, it is unavoidable. Divorce is almost required with an unrepentant spouse in adultery. I also believe that believers married to unbelievers are justified in divorce when the unbelieving spouse refuses to respect the believer's right to worship and believe as he or she is convicted. Just as innocent civilians are often killed during justifiable wars, children are often damaged even in justifiable divorces. Sometimes it is just unavoidable. Sometimes things get so messed up that there is no good solution and people have to pick the better of the bad.

[Gail]

I think it was Dr. Phil who said that generally people would rather be FROM a broken home than IN one.

This is one home that was broken where the kids ended up much better off after the break. They have a better relationship with their father now. They all finished school and 2 out of the 3 have degrees (the youngest graduates with 2 in June).

It's just hard to know what to do. I have thought a lot about the above quote and have no answers. We stuck it out for so long and I wonder sometimes whether I should have done things differently. But that's in the past now.

Appreciate all the input here :)

[Taylor]

There is no easy answere in many situation, Gail. Sometimes reconciliation isn't possible nor advisable. Although it is true, that as a society we have divorce as a "too easy of an option" I personally have friends who are deeply committed SDA's who haven't been able to make their marriage work and have agonized over what to do when one partner wants out at all costs and doesn't want any reconciliation. I feel for you and for them as there is no easy answere.

[Woody]

Humans are Humans. I always believe there is a way with God. Any two people can work things out if they try. But many are unwilling. This does not mean that divorce is the answer when separation is available. You have to allow for the possibility for change to happen and for God to work on hearts. But to close the door with divorce does not make sense to me.

[Taylor]

I agree Redwood. The key is that they both have to be willing. If one is adamate about leaving, that is where the problem is almost insurmountable.

[carolaa]

I Even children from abusive nuclear families do better out in the real world than children from divorced homes.

I'd like to know where you got your statistics, because I seriously doubt this is true. I know *plenty* of kids from divorced homes who have gone to college and done great.

[carolaa]

And even if that might possibly be true, I would venture to say it has more to do with money, or some other factor, than with whether the parents were married or not.

[rush4hire]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

It's not about thoughts and wisdom. It's the plain teaching of Scripture. If it's not plain to you' date=' it's because you don't want it to be plain. Why would you not want it to be plain? To make needful the authority of men?

I don't claim any authority. It Is Written has the authority. I'm willing to go along with what has been set up from the beginning, instead of trying to make myself, or any man, an authority.

Taylor says: Wow, if we don't agree with what you understand scripture to say it is because we don't want it to be made plain to us? Wow! I am sorry Rush, but since you aren't privy to people's personal lives and people's personal study habbits, and people's hearts, you can't possibly know that. God is the judge. Yes, there is truth, but you can't judge why a person may not understand that "truth" no matter how clear it is to you. Go ahead and preach, but leave the convicting and judging to God. [/quote']

These are the verses we're talking about:

Originally Posted By: rush4hire

[color:#BF0000]1 Cor. 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.

7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save [thy] husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save [thy] wife?

If you have some other understanding, then do share. I just don't see how it's possible.

There are many things where there is only one possible way to interpret. If it where not so, then you can condemn the whole Protestant reformation and apologize to the Pope. Because that's what the Protestant reformation was all about, the authority of Scripture. Protestants said "Sola Scriptura". The Papacy said you can make the Scriptures say anything you want, so therefore we need the authority of the Church as well as the Scriptures.

What are you? A Papist, or a Protestant?

[Bravus]

Uhuh, because diasgreeing with your opinions and interpretations automatically makes someone a 'Papist'... riiiight.

[rush4hire]

Uhuh, because diasgreeing with your opinions and interpretations automatically makes someone a 'Papist'... riiiight.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Even children from abusive nuclear families do better out in the real world than children from divorced homes.

I'd like to know where you got your statistics, because I seriously doubt this is true. I know *plenty* of kids from divorced homes who have gone to college and done great.

Again, read The Divorce Culture. Statistics simply show the facts. Drunk drivers are more likely to get into accidents. That doesn't mean that all drunk drivers get into accidents. Nor does it mean that sober drivers never get into accidents.

[Dr. Shane]

I think it was Dr. Phil who said that generally people would rather be FROM a broken home than IN one.