Report on Tim Walsh's Talk About The Financial Crisis

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.

Oh, perfectionism again! No Savior...no Christ my righteousness...just little on me standing in front of God's law!

Wow, that gives me a lot of hope...a lot of assurance. NOT!

Quote:

Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.

Oh, that will be glory for me, glory for me, glory of me, glory for me. Oh, sorry, I got carried away with that song.

Folks, do you see the heresy here? Grace isn't good enough, I must help Christ save me. I must try hard to be perfect. No assurance...just work, work, work....What heresy! What a hellish doctrine!

Quote:

While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven,

Oh, let's see whose been naughty or nice. John has a pile of bad things, but since his pile of good things are bigger John gets to sing, "that will be glory for me"! Can you hear the iniquity? Self is still there....No perfection at all.

Quote:

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing.

Well, we'll be here for a very, very, very, very long time.

Yep. That's why we have been here a very very long time!

Quote:

Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD?

And who shall stand in his holy place?

He who has clean hands and a pure heart,

who does not lift up his souyl to what is false

and does not swear deceitfully.

He will receive blessing from the LORD

AND RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM THE GOD OF HIS SALVATION. Ps 24:3-5 ESV

There is therefore now no condemnation for thgose who are Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. Be sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:1,4 ESV.

Gerry

[Lineman]

All the world's debt far exceeds all the assets in the world. There is 1400 trillion dollars of world debt, but only 53 trillion dollars of world GNP (Gross National Product).

[Tom Wetmore]

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Quote:

When the character of the Saviour shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim His own.

So often misinterpreted and misapplied, it is.

What do you suppose a perfect reproduction of Saviour character would be like? ...

...{RH, September 25, 1894 par. 5}

... {RH, September 25, 1894 par. 6}

The answer lies closer to the original quote... You could have saved yourself a bit of time and effort and just read the immediately preceding paragraph of the original quote from Christ's Object Lessons which shows the actual context which prompted EGW's declaration -

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. {COL 67-8.}

No need to construct a more complicated context of your own...

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

...

So often misinterpreted and misapplied, it is.

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator... GC 425

A most excellent book on this sadly misapplied and misinterpreted quote is Morris Vendon's "Never Without an Intercessor: The Good News About the Judgment".

Two key Biblical texts are Jesus own statement, "And I am with you to the very end of the world." Matthew 28:20, and "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:25.

And contrary to the notion that Christ will stop intercession and mediation on our behalf at some point, EGW elsewhere refers to Him performing that function throughout the ages.

Tom

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator... GC 425

[/quote']

And contrary to the notion that Christ will stop intercession and mediation on our behalf at some point, EGW elsewhere refers to Him performing that function throughout the ages.

Tom

Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

[size:14pt]When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. GC 425

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator... GC 425

... And contrary to the notion that Christ will stop intercession and mediation on our behalf at some point, EGW elsewhere refers to Him performing that function throughout the ages.

What does it mean when it says plainly that the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above and that we are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

[John317]

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. {COL 67-8.}

No need to construct a more complicated context of your own...

All good.

We need to take into account everything Ellen White wrote on the topic of being ready for Christ to come.

[melvin mccarty]

Again this is a case of using a certain authority selectively...mel

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator... GC 425

"And I am with you to the very end of the world." Matthew 28:20,

Jesus' promise to be with his followers to the end of the age does not contradict what Ellen White says in GC 425. He will certainly be with those who love Him right up until the moment we are translated. But that doesn't mean that Jesus is still our High Priest at that point. He comes as King, not as High Priest. He is not both at the same time.

In the same way, Jesus was not High Priest when He lived on this earth.

Christ's work as mediator will come to an end:

Quote:

He "shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne." Not now "upon the throne of his glory;" the kingdom of glory has not yet been ushered in. Not until his work as a mediator shall be ended, will God "give unto him the throne of his father David," a kingdom of which "there shall be no end." [LUKE 1:32, 33.] As a priest, Christ is now set down with the Father in his throne. [REV. 3:21.] Upon the throne with the eternal, self-existent One, is he who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows," who "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," that he might be "able to succor them that are tempted." "If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father." [iSA. 53:4; HEB. 4:15; 2:18; 1 JOHN 2:1] His intercession is that of a pierced and broken body, of a spotless life. The wounded hands, the pierced side, the marred feet, plead for fallen man, whose redemption was purchased at such infinite cost. {GC88 416.3}

Christ receives the kingdom at the close of His mediation. GC 428. This means that after the close of human probation, Christ receives the kingdom and then comes for His church. During the time He is receiving the kingdom, He is not a mediator but the King. See Daniel 12:1.

Quote:

TOM-- and "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:25.

Would you agree that the time will come when Christ will no longer serve as the mediator? See Rev. 22: 11. At that time the whole world will be divided between the unrighteous and the righteous.

That time is called the end of human probation. From that time forward, if people have not turned to Christ, they won't ever turn to Him. There will be no changes in people's relationship with God after the close of probation. Christ won't continue to serve as High Priest after that. The Heavenly Sanctuary will close. COL 310

It's the reason Ellen White writes,

Quote:

While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. GC 425

1) The Investigative Judgment is going forward in heaven NOW.

2) The sins of all penitent believers are being removed from the heavenly sanctuary.

3) We are to be putting away sin.

When this work of putting away sins and removing our sins from the heavenly sanctuary shall have been ACCOMPLISHED, then we will be ready for Christ to return.

Quote:

Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. GC 425

[John317]

Again this is a case of using a certain authority selectively...mel

Say more... Whatcha got in mind?

[John317]

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. GC 483

The righteousness of Christ refers to both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of Christ. See COL 310.

[John317]

And contrary to the notion that Christ will stop intercession and mediation on our behalf at some point, EGW elsewhere refers to Him performing that function throughout the ages.

Could you expand on that thought?

How does that relate to the statements on GC 425, 428, regarding the Investigative Judgment, "the last work of mediation," and "its close"?

[Lineman]

Quote:

There can be no growth or fruitfulness in the life that is centered in self. If you have accepted Christ as a personal Saviour, you are to forget yourself, and try to help others. Talk of the love of Christ, tell of His goodness. Do every duty that presents itself. Carry the burden of souls upon your heart, and by every means in your power seek to save the lost. As you receive the Spirit of Christ--the Spirit of unselfish love and labor for others--you will grow and bring forth fruit. The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character. Your faith will increase, your convictions deepen, your love be made perfect. More and more you will reflect the likeness of Christ in all that is pure, noble, and lovely.

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. This fruit can never perish, but will produce after its kind a harvest unto eternal life. {COL 67-8.}

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

...Could you expand on that thought?...

One of the more significant misapplications of the "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" quote is the notion that this marks the close of probation and occurs at or near the onset of the time of trouble. The elaboration of this is that for some period of time the saints will carry on in sinless perfection, without sinning until Christ returns. Not only is there no further mediation, the idea is that there is no need for further mediation since the saints have been perfected or achieved perfection before Christ returns. The idea is that sinless perfect people have no need of a mediator.

That runs counter to the Scripture I quoted. I don't have the exact quote from EGW at my fingertips at this point but will post it when I do. However, these two do throw a bit of a damper on the misapplication above:

Quote:

While we rejoice that there are worlds which have never fallen, these worlds render praise, and honor, and glory to Jesus Christ for the plan of redemption to save the fallen sons of Adam, as well as to confirm themselves in their position and character of purity. The arm that raised the human family from the ruin which Satan had brought upon the race through his temptations, is the arm which has preserved the inhabitants of other worlds from sin. Every world throughout immensity engages the care and support of the Father and the Son; and this care is constantly exercised for fallen humanity. Christ is mediating in behalf of man, and the order of unseen worlds also is preserved by his mediatorial work. -- The Review and Herald, Jan. 11, 1881

I ask you to study the prayer of Christ as recorded in the seventeenth chapter of John. I hope, my dear brother, that you will see this prayer in its true character. It is a lesson by which our course of action is to be guided. It contains the science that will stand the test of ages. It is an illustration of the intercession that will stand that Christ is making and to the end of the world will continue to make for those who believe in Him. -- BCL 116.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator... GC 425

[/quote']

A most excellent book on this sadly misapplied and misinterpreted quote is Morris Vendon's "Never Without an Intercessor: The Good News About the Judgment".

Two key Biblical texts are Jesus own statement, "And I am with you to the very end of the world." Matthew 28:20, and "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:25.

And contrary to the notion that Christ will stop intercession and mediation on our behalf at some point, EGW elsewhere refers to Him performing that function throughout the ages.

Tom

Intercession has to do with getting rid of the cause of alienation, i.e. sin in believers so that they can stand in the presence of a holy God. When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, the destiny of each person will have been decided. There will be no more need for intercession. The sin problem in believers will have been settled. So they now stand without an intercessor, but that doesn't mean that now they are left to their own devices without a protector.

Gerry

[John317]

I ask you to study the prayer of Christ as recorded in the seventeenth chapter of John. I hope, my dear brother, that you will see this prayer in its true character. It is a lesson by which our course of action is to be guided. It contains the science that will stand the test of ages. It is an illustration of the intercession that will stand that Christ is making and to the end of the world will continue to make for those who believe in Him. -- BCL 116.

There's no question that Jesus will continue to make intercession for those who believe in Him as long as it is necessary.

But the question is, why is it necessary for Christ to intercede for us after the sealing is finished and after the close of human probation?

Check this out:

Quote:

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. The Great Controversy (1911), page 613, 614

[Gerr]

PS

You are a lawyer. What would you think if, after you've won the case for your client, pronounced innocent of all criminal charges, and he asks you to go back to court to continue to plead his case?

Gerry

[John317]

One of the more significant misapplications of the "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" quote is the notion that this marks the close of probation and occurs at or near the onset of the time of trouble.

Why is that a significant misapplication?

When else does this occur except at the close of probation?

The only time the Spirit of Prophecy uses this phrase, or ones similar to it, is in the context of the end of human probation, after Jesus ceases His intercession, and shortly before Christ returns. GC 425, 613, 614.

Do you know of any other time when Ellen White talks about people having to live or stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator?

Christ lives to intercede for humanity up to that time. Therefore, until Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above, no one must live in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.

[Woody]

John. I think you are way off topic from the Financial Crisis to spiritual perfectionism. If you wanted to start a new thread ... that would be cool.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

One of the more significant misapplications of the "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" quote is the notion that this marks the close of probation and occurs at or near the onset of the time of trouble.

Why is that a significant misapplication?

When else does this occur except at the close of probation? ...

Which occurs first, close of probation, end of the world, Christ's return to earth?

[Robert]

spiritual perfectionism

Those who teach such are agents of hell....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Why is that a significant misapplication?

When else does this occur except at the close of probation? ...

Which occurs first' date=' close of probation, end of the world, Christ's return to earth? [/quote']

In the Spirit of Prophecy, in what other context besides the close of probation do those words occur, that people will "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator"? GC 425, 613, 614.

Given the fact that it only occurs in that context, how is it a significant misapplication to say that the end of Christ's intercession marks the close of probation? How else should we apply those words?

First there is the close of probation, then the return of Christ to the earth.

(There really is no such thing as "the end of the world." The original language refers to "the end of the age," not the world. The world continues to exist.)

[Gerr]

It seems to me that to insist that intercession/mediation will continue after the close of probation and cessation of His sanctuary work is a denial that Jesus has finished His work, that Jesus as our advocate has not yet won the case for us His clients.

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

spiritual perfectionism

Those who teach such are agents of hell....

How do you define "perfectionism"?

It is used in different ways. Some use it as the teaching that sanctified people cannot sin.

This is how Ellen White used the word in the following passage:

[THE ONES TEACHING PERFECTIONISM] "HELD THAT THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED CANNOT SIN. AND THIS NATURALLY LED TO THE BELIEF THAT THE AFFECTIONS AND DESIRES OF THE SANCTIFIED ONES WERE ALWAYS RIGHT, AND NEVER IN DANGER OF LEADING THEM INTO SIN. IN HARMONY WITH THESE SOPHISTRIES, THEY WERE PRACTISING THE WORST SINS UNDER THE GARB OF SANCTIFICATION, AND THROUGH THEIR DECEPTIVE, MESMERIC INFLUENCE WERE GAINING A STRANGE POWER OVER SOME OF THEIR ASSOCIATES, WHO DID NOT SEE THE EVIL OF THESE APPARENTLY BEAUTIFUL BUT SEDUCTIVE THEORIES. . . ."

Early Writings (1882), page 301, paragraph 4

God will not intrust the care of his precious flock to men whose minds and judgment have been weakened by former errors that they have been in, such as so-called perfectionism and spiritualism, and by their course, while in these errors, have brought reproach upon the cause of truth and disgraced themselves. And although they may now feel free from error, and competent to go forth to teach this last message, God will not accept them. He will not intrust precious souls to their care; for their judgment has been perverted while in error, and is now weakened. Supplement to the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White (1854), page 19, 20

That which will bless humanity is spiritual life. If the man is in harmony with God, he will depend continually upon him for strength. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." It should be our life-work to press forward continually toward the perfection of Christian character, ever striving for conformity to the will of God, remembering that the efforts begun upon earth will continue throughout eternity. God has set before the human family an elevated standard, and he who is true to his God-given manhood, will not only promote the happiness of his fellow-creatures in this life, but will aid them to secure an eternal reward in the life to come. The Signs of the Times , June 17, 1886, paragraph 5

What is expected of the subjects of Christ's kingdom? The answer is given by Christ himself, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." No soul can enter into the heavenly courts who does not have an understanding of God's requirements, and does not strive to be perfect, even as God is perfect. The Review and Herald, February 25, 1909, paragraph 8

All who give themselves to the service of Christ will follow the example of Christ, and will be perfect overcomers. Sons and Daughters of God (1955), page 141, paragraph 5

There are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord's, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments. These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments," John wrote, "is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him." 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24. The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 562, 563