Report on Tim Walsh's Talk About The Financial Crisis

[John317]

It seems to me that to insist that intercession/mediation will continue after the close of probation and cessation of His sanctuary work is a denial that Jesus has finished His work, that Jesus as our advocate has not yet won the case for us His clients.

Gerry

That's a very good point. To say that Christ's intercessory work as High Priest ends simply means that the cases are closed, that all people are forever settled into being either lost or saved. At that point Christ's intercessory work as our High Priest is finished and He comes for His church as our King.

As Ellen White puts it--

.... the church must and will fight against seen and unseen foes. Satan's agencies in human form are on the ground. Men have confederated to oppose the Lord of hosts. These confederacies will continue until Christ shall leave His place of intercession before the mercy seat, and shall put on the garments of vengeance. Satanic agencies are in every city, busily organizing into parties those opposed to the law of God. Professed saints and avowed unbelievers take their stand with these parties. This is no time for the people of God to be weaklings. We cannot afford to be off our guard for one moment. {CET 229, 230}

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

...Which occurs first, close of probation, end of the world, Christ's return to earth?

...First there is the close of probation, then the return of Christ to the earth...

The phrase from Jesus lips repeated 3 times in the last verses of Revelation - "And behold I come quickly."

How quickly do you suppose a God anxious to reclaim His own can move? The problem is the gap theory of interpreting the quote in question. I would understand near simultaneous occurance of the end of the age, close of earth's probation and Christ's return. Consider what is often said of the dead - "Probation has closed for them." Likewise it is the end of their world (the age, their time on earth) and in their perception the next nano-second is being awakened by Christ's return to earth. I think it quite simply that when Christ is done in heaven, He returns to earth, quickly.

Quote:

(There really is no such thing as "the end of the world." The original language refers to "the end of the age," not the world. The world continues to exist.)

The meaning of the figure of speech is obvious and well understood, so it should go without saying. To say the needless tends to come across as condesending.

[John317]

[Tom Wetmore]

No offense taken. :smile:

[Raphael]

Well, may I join the party..

I am currently writing upon an Asia Pacific Regional Outlook, since we are nearing the end of this year and have among others, three document sources from International Monetary Fund (IMF), Pacific Economy Cooperation Council (PECC) and Deloitte Research. They have something in common, that is Asia Pacific and I presumed other parts of the world have sufficient buffer barriers against the US subprime instigated crises. The importance of trade and or import exports between the US including Europe with other parts of the world have been significantly lessened by markets from Latin America, Middle East, China, Korea, Russia and others. Even China will be led and sustained by its own domestic market. Therefore the fear of a world catastrophe on a major scale is a far fetched idea where even at the moment coordinated efforts at the scale of government bodies worldwide are being formed. The natural human tendency to come together during major problems, not to mentioned to always strive for better things will avail. Funny thing is, that it often needs an alarm strong enough to set it off a bolstered optimum performance.

I am still working on the article so, I can't channel my energies too much into further details. You know.. the deadline ghost..

Blessed Sabbath Day,

Raphael

[Raphael]

Just a thought, what I would deem as a scary idea is the enactment of the Sunday Law at times of prosperity and nation governing efficiencies which would only be possible by the withdrawing of the restraining Holy Spirit and the Holy Angels. Therefore there will be a very efficient and coordinated hunt down and management of the Sabbath Keepers, worldwide.

It may turn into those ghost movies where you are suddenly aware (usually to late to escape) that you are amongst a community of zombies or demons (in an otherwise good, modern looking settlement) who are going to turn you into one as well. Spooky films.. not during war or turbulences..

Hope I am not scaring anyone out of their Christian serenity.

Happy Sabbath once again,

Raphael

[Raphael]

According to EGW or was that something else, Count Devil will be allowed to reach his culminating pinnacle of dark arts before and at the final commencement of the 'end of days' which I suppose, pinnacle would mean at the his best performance, possible, which would further mean efficiencies and effectiveness. Which certainly, does not work well together with situations of chaos or social unrest. Don't you think so?

Another Happy Sabbath,

Raphael

[Robert]

What is expected of the subjects of Christ's kingdom? The answer is given by Christ himself, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What is expected of the subjects of Christ's kingdom? The answer is given by Christ himself, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

How perfect? As perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect!!!

Do a word study below. It doesn't mean absolute sinlessness and absolute perfection. See how the same word is used in Matt. 19: 21; Phil. 3: 15; 1 Cor. 2: 6; Col. 4: 12; Heb. 5:14; James 1:4; James 3: 2; 1 John 4:18.

The word "therefore" shows that Jesus is talking about doing those things which he talks about in the verses just previous to v. 48.

Quote:

No soul can enter into the heavenly courts who does not have an understanding of God's requirements, and does not strive to be perfect, even as God is perfect. [The Review and Herald, February 25, 1909, paragraph 8]

What does Christ say in that quote? "You must be perfect— [how perfect?] just as your Father in heaven is perfect!"

Now EGW takes that statement and waters it down: "No soul can enter into the heavenly courts who does...not strive to be perfect."

Christ didn't say "strive to be perfect"! No, in speaking to the multitudes, He said - "You must be perfect—just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Ellen, please be honest with the context without adding your spin.

Thanks

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5046 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

from (5056)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Teleios 8:67,1161

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

tel'-i-os Adjective

Definition

brought to its end, finished

wanting nothing necessary to completeness

perfect

that which is perfect

consummate human integrity and virtue

of men

full grown, adult, of full age, mature

King James Word Usage - Total: 19

perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

How perfect? As perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect!!!

Do a word study below. It doesn't mean absolute sinlessness and absolute perfection. See how the same word is used in Matt. 19: 21; Phil. 3: 15; 1 Cor. 2: 6; Col. 4: 12; Heb. 5:14; James 1:4; James 3: 2; 1 John 4:18.

No word study! Look at the immediate context! This sampling from here there and everywhere allows you to make the Bible say anything you desire....Anything!

A good example:

"Judas hung himself". I could piece another verse with this such as, "Go do thou likewise" and I've got a command for you to hang yourself. So that's where branching off the context can take you!

Besides, look at Christ's own words: "As perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect!"

This alone proves that you are wrong! And it proves EGW was taking verses out of their original context....She had a bad habit of this....

[Woody]

Thanks for getting us on track Rob.

I am not directing this at any one particular person ... but I think the quote below is very important:

Quote:

"There are those who pick out from the Word of God, and also from the Testimonies, detached paragraphs or sentences that may be interpreted to suit their own ideas, and they dwell upon these, and build themselves up in their own positions, when God is not leading them. Now all this pleases the enemy." 3MR 33

Quote:

"Many explained the testimonies to suit themselves. The truth of God is not in harmony with the traditions of men, nor does it conform to their opinions. Like its divine Author, it is unchangeable, the same yesterday, today, and forever. Those who separate from God will call darkness light, and error truth. But darkness will never prove itself to be light, nor will error become truth." 5T 62

[John317]

"There are those who pick out from the Word of God, and also from the Testimonies, detached paragraphs or sentences that may be interpreted to suit their own ideas, and they dwell upon these, and build themselves up in their own positions, when God is not leading them. Now all this pleases the enemy." 3MR 33

"Many explained the testimonies to suit themselves. The truth of God is not in harmony with the traditions of men, nor does it conform to their opinions. Like its divine Author, it is unchangeable, the same yesterday, today, and forever. Those who separate from God will call darkness light, and error truth. But darkness will never prove itself to be light, nor will error become truth." 5T 62

We're in agreement on this. Those are very important quotes.

[Robert]

Why would Jesus tell a people already bogged down in legalism and traditionalism to, "be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect"? Was Jesus the biggest legalist of all? And of course the answer is "absolutely not"!

What we need to do is examine the context surrounding Matt chapter five. The first question is,

Who was Jesus speaking to?

Matthew 5:1

"When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying...."

It looks like Jesus is talking to only His disciples. Is that the case? No! If you go to where He finishes His lecture you'll see whom He was addressing:

Matthew 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching: 29 for he taught them as One having authority, and not as their scribes.

This speaks volumes. These two verses tells me Christ was speaking to both His disciples and the multitudes. So there's the context.

The next question I have is who was Jesus addressing? Gentiles or Jews? Mostly, if not entirely, Jews. I get this from 7:29

"He wasn't like the teachers of the Law; instead, he taught with authority." Or, as the other version states, "He taught them as One having authority, and not as their scribes."

What people had "teachers of the law" and "Scribes"? Answer: The Jews.

What were the Jews taught from the "teachers of the law"? The teachers of the law essentially taught what we call the Old Covenant, i.e., salvation by the law. So these Jews had been indoctrinated with legalism for many years.

That's the background...that's the context of Matthew chapter five.

[Robert]

Matthew 5:20 "For I say unto you [the Jews], that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven."

In other words their knowledge of the law is limited. Your righteousness must exceed theirs! Then Jesus proves His point:

21: You have heard that the ancients were told, `YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and `Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court.

In other words you were taught that to the law murder is an act, but I'm here to tell you that if you are angry with your brother you are a murderer in the eyes of the law.

Jesus says the same concerning adultery. It's not only the sexual act that's sin in the eyes of the law. The law also condemns you if you look at a woman sexually.

So Jesus expanded on the law. In fact He sums it up in verse 48:

"You shall be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect."

What was Jesus doing?

[Robert]

What was Jesus doing?

Better yet, why did God give the Old Covenant in the first place since He knew the Jews couldn't keep it?

Answer: Because they didn't know!

You see we are born egocentric. We are born "know-it-alls"! We think the skies the limit and that we can do anything. When it comes to spiritual things there's no difference.

So the Jews thought they were measuring up, but Christ says, "Wait just a minute, if you hate someone you are a murderer. If you look at a woman sexually you are guilty of adultery, etc....In fact you must be perfect, just as God is perfect."

We are told that the law was given to make sin, transgression. Before you were sinning, but now you know you are sinning. The law didn't make it better on you, it made it worse. Then Jesus comes along to a proud, legalistic people and says, "You thought that you are keeping the law, but unless your law keeping exceeds that of your teachers you'll never make it to heaven."

So what was Christ doing? He was trying to break through their spiritual pride so that they might accept Him and be justified by faith. That's why He did it!

Gal 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions [i.e., it was added to turn sin into transgression] until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin [iniquity], so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What was Jesus doing?

Better yet, why did God give the Old Covenant in the first place since He knew the Jews couldn't keep it?

Answer: Because they didn't know!

Patently false!!! If they didn't know, it was not because they were not told how to do it. Here is what Moses told them:

Quote:

[color:red]

For this commandment that I command you today is NOT TOO HARD FOR YOU, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascent to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' But the word is VERYNEAR YOU. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. Dt 30:11-14 ESV

What is this word that was near them, in their mouth and in their heart? Paul clearly says, "the word of faith that we proclaim," Rom 10:8. They were to obey it by faith. That is how ALL the OT saints did it. Heb 11 bears witness to it. That is what Paul means when he quotes Hab 2, "The just shall LIVE by faith."

Gerry

[Robert]

Patently false!!! If they didn't know, it was not because they were not told how to do it. Here is what Moses told them:

Quote:

'Who will ascent to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' But the word is VERY NEAR YOU. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. Dt 30:11-14 ESV

They were to obey it [the law] by faith. That is how ALL the OT saints did it. Heb 11 bears witness to it. That is what Paul means when he quotes Hab 2, "The just shall LIVE by faith."

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and no!

That is not what Paul meant. Here's Paul:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [salvation by the keeping of the law] are under a curse: [why?] for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for,

the just by faith shall live;

12 but the law is not of faith; rather, He that doeth them shall by them live.

There's two ways to receive life:

1] Those justified by faith

or

2] Those justified by keeping the law

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Patently false!!! If they didn't know, it was not because they were not told how to do it. Here is what Moses told them:

Quote:

'Who will ascent to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' But the word is VERY NEAR YOU. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. Dt 30:11-14 ESV

They were to obey it [the law] by faith. That is how ALL the OT saints did it. Heb 11 bears witness to it. That is what Paul means when he quotes Hab 2, "The just shall LIVE by faith."

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and no!

That is not what Paul meant. Here's Paul:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [salvation by the keeping of the law] are under a curse: [why?] for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for,

the just by faith shall live;

12 but the law is not of faith; rather, He that doeth them shall by them live.

There's two ways to receive life:

1] Those justified by faith

or

2] Those justified by keeping the law

OK we can agree on your proposition, i.e. the 2 ways of receiving life. We can rule out the second because no one is able to do that on his own. So then we agree that the ONLY way is the way of faith. The question then is: What kind of faith is it that can appropriate God's grace for salvation?

According to our Lord, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mt 7:21 ESV.

According to Paul, faith does NOT overthrow the law. "On the contrary, [it] upholds the law," Rom 3:31 ESV. Furthermore, he says, "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Rom 6:1,2 ESV. To make sure there is no confusion about this, he repeats the same thought. "What then? Are we to sin because we ae not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS? But thanks be to God, that you who WERE ONCE SLAVES OF SIN HAVE BECOME OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have BECOME SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS." Rom 6:15-18 ESV.

Those "who are in Christ Jesus" are obedient slaves of righteousness, they are the ones for whom there is no condemnation, because now "the righteous requirement of the law ....[is]fulfilled in ...[them], who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:1,4,7,8 ESV.

The Apostle John is clear. It is not enough to merely say, "I believe," or "I know Him." For "whoever says 'I know him' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not inb him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected.....whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:4-6 ESV.

I know how Jesus walked - He walked obediently by faith.

I know how Paul walked - he walked obediently by faith.

I know how the Apostle John walked - he walked obediently by faith.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Gal 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions [i.e., it was added to turn sin into transgression] until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin [iniquity], so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Robert

Paul likened the law to a paidagogos , who, according to Enhanced Strong's Lexicon is: "a tutor, i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and Romansthe name was applied to trustworthy slaves who charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving to the age of manhood."

Are you now going to tell us that after the paidagogos , i.e. the tutor, the guardian, has delivered/brought you into the presence of the Master Teacher, that you are now free to play hooky? That you are now free to misbehave in His presence? Is that what Paul meant when he said that "we are no longer under the supervision of the law [paidagogos - guardian]? The guardian spends all that time and effort to train you to behave properly only to throw them all into the wind once you are in the presence of Christ? UNTHINKABLE!!!

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and no!

That is not what Paul meant. Here's Paul:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law [salvation by the keeping of the law] are under a curse: [why?] for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for,

the just by faith shall live;

12 but the law is not of faith; rather, He that doeth them shall by them live.

There's two ways to receive life:

1] Those justified by faith

or

2] Those justified by keeping the law

OK we can agree on your proposition, i.e. the 2 ways of receiving life. We can rule out the second because no one is able to do that on his own. So then we agree that the ONLY way is the way of faith. The question then is: What kind of faith is it that can appropriate God's grace for salvation?

According to our Lord, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mt 7:21 ESV.

According to Paul, faith does NOT overthrow the law. "On the contrary, [it] upholds the law," Rom 3:31 ESV. Furthermore, he says, "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Rom 6:1,2 ESV. To make sure there is no confusion about this, he repeats the same thought. "What then? Are we to sin because we ae not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS? But thanks be to God, that you who WERE ONCE SLAVES OF SIN HAVE BECOME OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have BECOME SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS." Rom 6:15-18 ESV.

Those "who are in Christ Jesus" are obedient slaves of righteousness, they are the ones for whom there is no condemnation, because now "the righteous requirement of the law ....[is]fulfilled in ...[them], who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:1,4,7,8 ESV.

The Apostle John is clear. It is not enough to merely say, "I believe," or "I know Him." For "whoever says 'I know him' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not inb him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected.....whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:4-6 ESV.

I know how Jesus walked - He walked obediently by faith.

I know how Paul walked - he walked obediently by faith.

I know how the Apostle John walked - he walked obediently by faith.

Gerry

All you did here was to reduce my quote in Galatians to nothingness. How? By taking a mass of unrelated verses and stringing them together. I must reject your theology for it is a lie.

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin [iniquity], so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law , locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Robert

Are you now going to tell us that after the paidagogos , i.e. the tutor, the guardian, has delivered/brought you into the presence of the Master Teacher, that you are now free to play hooky? ....The guardian spends all that time and effort to train you to behave properly only to throw them all into the wind once you are in the presence of Christ? UNTHINKABLE!!!

So the law was just our buddy? Your crazy! Re-read my quote above and pay attention to the large fonts.

[Robert]

Are you now going to tell us that after the paidagogos , i.e. the tutor, the guardian, has delivered/brought you into the presence of the Master Teacher, that you are now free to play hooky? ....The guardian spends all that time and effort to train you to behave properly only to throw them all into the wind once you are in the presence of Christ? UNTHINKABLE!!!

The ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones [2 Corinthians 3:7]

Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. [Gal 3:10]

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [Rom 7:10]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

OK we can agree on your proposition, i.e. the 2 ways of receiving life. We can rule out the second because no one is able to do that on his own. So then we agree that the ONLY way is the way of faith. The question then is: What kind of faith is it that can appropriate God's grace for salvation?

According to our Lord, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mt 7:21 ESV.

According to Paul, faith does NOT overthrow the law. "On the contrary, [it] upholds the law," Rom 3:31 ESV. Furthermore, he says, "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" Rom 6:1,2 ESV. To make sure there is no confusion about this, he repeats the same thought. "What then? Are we to sin because we ae not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS? But thanks be to God, that you who WERE ONCE SLAVES OF SIN HAVE BECOME OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have BECOME SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS." Rom 6:15-18 ESV.

Those "who are in Christ Jesus" are obedient slaves of righteousness, they are the ones for whom there is no condemnation, because now "the righteous requirement of the law ....[is]fulfilled in ...[them], who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit....For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:1,4,7,8 ESV.

The Apostle John is clear. It is not enough to merely say, "I believe," or "I know Him." For "whoever says 'I know him' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not inb him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected.....whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:4-6 ESV.

I know how Jesus walked - He walked obediently by faith.

I know how Paul walked - he walked obediently by faith.

I know how the Apostle John walked - he walked obediently by faith.

Gerry

All you did here was to reduce my quote in Galatians to nothingness. How? By taking a mass of unrelated verses and stringing them together. I must reject your theology for it is a lie.

Rob

Unrelated verses? Are they not part of Scripture? You pick out quotes from EGW that suits your theology and reject those that contradict it. I am not surprised that you are doing the same to the Scriptures.

The Apostle Peter anticipated your theology long ago: [color:red] "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." 2 Pe 2:22 ESV.

"They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. For if, after they have escapted the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are gain entagled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." 2 Pe 2:19-21 ESV.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin [iniquity], so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law , locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Robert

Are you now going to tell us that after the paidagogos , i.e. the tutor, the guardian, has delivered/brought you into the presence of the Master Teacher, that you are now free to play hooky? ....The guardian spends all that time and effort to train you to behave properly only to throw them all into the wind once you are in the presence of Christ? UNTHINKABLE!!!

So the law was just our buddy? Your crazy! Re-read my quote above and pay attention to the large fonts.

A paidagogos your buddy? The one that tells you "NO" to your fleshly or selfish desires? The one that twists your ear or paddles your bottom when you step out of line? Yes, read your own quotes, and pay attention to what a paidagogos does. The law is like a mirror that reveals the sinner's filth so that he can go to Christ for CLEANSING. The end and purpose of the law is to bring the sinner to Christ who alone has the remedy/cure for sin because the law cannot save. Yeah, we are prisoner's of the paidagogos until we come to Christ and reach manhood.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

Are you now going to tell us that after the paidagogos , i.e. the tutor, the guardian, has delivered/brought you into the presence of the Master Teacher, that you are now free to play hooky? ....The guardian spends all that time and effort to train you to behave properly only to throw them all into the wind once you are in the presence of Christ? UNTHINKABLE!!!

The ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones [2 Corinthians 3:7]

Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. [Gal 3:10]

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [Rom 7:10]

"I will walk in liberty, for I seek your precepts." Ps 119:45 NKJ

"But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a DOER WHO ACTS, he will be BLESSED IN HIS DOING." Jam 1:25 ESV

Who is at liberty to walk the streets? The law-abiding citizen or the one that causes mayhem?

What cities are safe to be in? A city of law-abiding citizens or where the law is flouted?

Who is healthy? The one that eats anything he/she wants? Or the one that follows the laws of health?

"They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption." 2 Pe 2:19 ESV.

How can you promise freedom while advocating lawlessness? Sounds like an echo from Gen 3. "You shall not surely die. Your eyes will be opened." You gotta be joking!!!

Gerry