EGW and unions

[Pockey]

Can any EGW experts summarize in a nutshell what her view on unions was and why she held that view?

The only reason I ask, is that tomorrow (Friday) is going to be a very dark day on the market. And I suspect UAW will not be happy.

[Woody]

Can any EGW experts summarize in a nutshell what her view on unions was and why she held that view?

The only reason I ask, is that tomorrow (Friday) is going to be a very dark day on the market. And I suspect UAW will not be happy.

"Through the working of trusts, and the results of labor unions and strikes the conditions of life in the city are constantly becoming more and more difficult. Serious troubles are before us; and for many families removal from the cities will become a necessity." CL p.6

[Woody]

Quote:

"The trades unions and confederacies of the world are a snare. Keep out of them, and away from them, brethren. Have nothing to do with them. Because of these unions and confederacies, it will soon be very difficult for our institutions to carry on their work in the cities. My warning is: Keep out of the cities."

"The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."--Letter 200, 1903. CL p.10

[Taylor]

I agree that many labor unions would be problematic. However, they have also done some good..... Are the labor unions now better or worse than in EGW's day?

[Bravus]

Good old Christian right-wingery, never fails.

[Pockey]

"The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."

wow.

[Taylor]

Good old Christian right-wingery, never fails.

Well I do think that it has to be at least read and see what it might mean for us today. EGW was a prophet and God may have showed her what would happen in the last days.

[Woody]

Good old Christian right-wingery, never fails.

If ye be referrin to me ...

I have to take that as a compliment. Not many here feel I am on the 'Right' side of Christianity. Most say I am on the Left side of the Christian debate. But to have you call me a conservative is an honor. Not sure that Gerry would agree with you.

But ... if you be referring to Taylor ... just forget all of this.

However ... if ye be referrin to Ellen White ... get them their eyes back in them sockets.

[Pockey]

Quote:

""The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."--Letter 200, 1903. CL p.10

This is very interesting. I wonder if it will be something similar to what is being developed in Europe with the Working Time Directive. With the Working Time Directive, the Catholic Church wants to make Sunday a mandatory day of rest, and to limit the number of total hours that they work in a week. If unions are tied into the time of trouble, it has to be related with the Sunday Law. Perhaps the unions will discourage Sunday work but they will view it as a monetary issue rather than spiritual one.

[Neil D]

Ladys and gentlemen,

regarding Unions and EGW....you guy got to remember, that Unions were just starting out and gaining a foothold when EGW was a round. And you have to admit, that the history of the Unions have been rather violent since her death...but that has calmed down now...and there is not the violence nor the coeresone [sp] that once was...

As to that "time of trouble that never was"....you're sure that it hasn't already happened?

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Good old Christian right-wingery, never fails.

If ye be referrin to me ...

I have to take that as a compliment. Not many here feel I am on the 'Right' side of Christianity. Most say I am on the Left side of the Christian debate. But to have you call me a conservative is an honor. Not sure that Gerry would agree with you.

But ... if you be referring to Taylor ... just forget all of this.

However ... if ye be referrin to Ellen White ... get them their eyes back in them sockets.

LOL Redwood...I love it.

[guibox]

I think EGW's concerns with Unions were obviously influenced by the issues of her day. I don't believe that she was given a futuristic telescope to predict exactly what labor unions would be doing. Remember that as far as the pioneers were concerned, they were living in the last days too.

I think unions don't have the power or clout like they used to. Frankly, there is way to much abuses in our church and school system that would never be tolerated in unions. This is one of the reasons why my wife completely changed her views on unions from the traditional SDA view to accepting them.

I would venture to say that one of the reasons why our church doesn't support unions is because they know that a good chunk of people would be sued due to negligence abuse and career and reputation assassination that regularly occurs.

Perhaps unions should be instituted in our church. It might keep some at bay.

[Woody]

She said that the unions would bring on a 'time of trouble' as never seen before. Has this happened yet or is it yet to come? If it has happened ... when did it happen?

[guibox]

She said that the unions would bring on a 'time of trouble' as never seen before. Has this happened yet or is it yet to come? If it has happened ... when did it happen?

So now the 'time of trouble' is union enforced Sunday laws with the backing of the Catholic Church and Protestant America?

And this will affect the people in the jungles of communist North Vietnam and the frozen tundra of Greenland how?

Isn't our doomsday scenario we've developed just a little North American ego-centric in the grand scheme of the world.

[Woody]

She never said that it would effect the rest of the world.

[Woody]

"The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."--Letter 200, 1903. CL p.10

Nothing there about it effecting the rest of the world.

[Neil D]

"The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."--Letter 200, 1903. CL p.10

Nothing there about it effecting the rest of the world.

Red,

Is there anything there that indicates that Unions will be pushing hard for sunday legislation?

Is there anything that indicates that Unions will be against the Adventist church exclusively?

[Bravus]

I'm not sure whether Red is serious or funnin'. What is there about the words 'this earth' that suggests it only applies to the US?

My comment about right-wingery was simply that for some reason Christians in America seem to reliably line up with the bosses and against the workers. Odd, given Jesus' stance...

[Bravus]

Not only in America, I should add to be fair. Australia and South Africa too. Britain and Europe less so.

[Sulla]

Here is a thought. If unions do play this role. Who says it would be in the US. Why not the EU where they have much more power.

[Robert]

"The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."

wow.

So, Ellen, let management exploit the workers? I think management is "the evil"....If it weren't for the unions we've have no labor rights.

[Robert]

My comment about right-wingery was simply that for some reason Christians in America seem to reliably line up with the bosses and against the workers. Odd, given Jesus' stance...

Matt 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, "You know that in this world kings are tyrants, and officials lord it over the people beneath them. 26 But among you it should be quite different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must become your slave. 28 For even I, the Son of Man, came here not to be served but to serve others, and to give my life as a ransom for many."

[olger]

I want to see the UAW broken, and the workers, many of whome are decent people, reform their work ethic with the Manufacturer - leaving the union bosses (thugs) out of it.

[Robert]

I want to see the UAW broken, and the workers, many of whome are decent people, reform their work ethic with the Manufacturer - leaving the union bosses (thugs) out of it.

I see, all the money should flow to important folks at the top. That's one reason unions came into being because of exploitation. There are always folks that believe they are more important and deserving than others. I've seen it myself in our managers where I work. There are very few good managers. Most of them use you as a stool to get where they're going.

Too bad the slaves in the south didn't have unions, huh? That is what happens when greedy CEO get ultimate control. It happened in the south and now it's happening in 3rd world countries. I hope they unionize soon!

[Bravus]

As ever, it's a matter of balance. Are there union abuses? Sure. Are there management abuses? Definitely. In a well run system, though, management and the unions can maintain a healthy tension between profits and workers' rights.

Due to selfishness and human nature and the way our business systems are structured, a completely union-free working environment almost invariably means exploitation of the workers. (I'm talking in big business, not something like olger's roofing business where one ethical owner/manager can make all the difference.)

Of course the unions shouldn't have excessive power and control, and of course union officials should be chosen who are ethical people. Same for managers. But to suggest that unions should be abolished entirely is, as Robert suggests, to line yourself up on the side of exploitation.