EGW and unions

[Kevin H]

Sadly it's been years so I don't remember the reference, and I was hoping it was brought up here, but it's not.

In college the focus was on a statement that the Labor Unions would end up uniting with the very evils that they were designed to fight.

Of course our right-wing agenda causes that statement to become overlooked as instead of seeing how the labor unions are uniting with the very evils that they were designed to fight, we just openly side with the very evils that they were designed to fight.

[Stan]

When I first became an Adventist I was told that Unions were bad for businesses, and that is why not to join them, very Republican kind of statements followed that..

I do not think that is the issue at all.

The problems with unions, is that you have to give your will over to them.

Our entire will belongs to the one who died for us, and we turn over our will to him.

Have seen heartbroken nurses that were not allowed to go into the hospital, even if it was to help a long term patient that was in their last days of life, and they had befriended each other. They were told, no we are not scabs, and the patients can be looked after by the supervisors and the skeleton crew

I remember a teacher sharing an experience as her will was taken over by her union, I do not remember the details.

Many unions have done as Jesus did, to free those that were oppressed..

[Servant]

"The problems with unions, is that you have to give your will over to them." This is very true.

Although Unions were formed for very good reason - to bring needed balance into the workplace, protect the rights of workers and provide safe working conditions; their power is far more imposing than that. Now, unrealistic demands are often made on an employer. With prideful power the Union, will close down businesses unable to meet their demands (I attended a Union awards dinner to support a friend, where they bragged about their successful closure of a business). And powerful, political careers are made, and brokered, through Unions.

While the news is full of unethical and grossly overpaid CEO's, those are individuals whose dishonest actions, though not solo, typically do not involve a large number of persons. Union members however, join because they feel forced to do so for employment, and then must support all decisions the Union makes irregardless of conscience; even though some arrangements may be made without the vote of the Union.

Then too, a code of silence may be the Union 'standard' when members employ violence towards individuals or businesses considered non-Union friendly. The same response - silence, or outright lies, are used to coverup or support a 'brother' when members damage their workplace, or employ illegal conduct in any number of ways. I do not believe Christ could support these actions.

Christians who want to honor God rather than man, have the legal option of working for an employer in a Union shop without having to become a Union member.

[Robert]

When I first became an Adventist I was told that Unions were bad for businesses....

Sure, because you can't exploit as much with a union. It cuts down on one's greed and therefore it's bad for THEIR business.

Rob

[Robert]

Christians who want to honor God rather than man, have the legal option of working for an employer in a Union shop without having to become a Union member.

Oh boy....

This is the same BS that was happening in England during the Industrial Revolution. People were living in hovels with sewage running in the streets. And the rich used religion to exploit the ignorant. The owners would build these great cathedrals and tell the workers that if they kept on working one day they would have a mansion in heaven. It was these rich Christians that fueled Communism years down the road.

How? Well, there was a man named Karl Marx that witnessed these excesses first hand. He witnessed how the rich would use religion to blind the poor to keep working in these terrible conditions. That's where he came up with the phrase, "religion is the opiate of the masses."

Now Karl Marx wasn't completely right. Yes, he was right about the exploitation, but he was wrong on why it took place. He said that man is selfish by his environment. Change his environment and make everyone share and mankind would overcome his selfishness.

Well, that's where Karl made his mistake. Mankind isn't selfish by his environment. Mankind is selfish by his very nature! But the point is, bad Christianity played an important part in starting the Communist Revolution. Apparently they needed unions, huh?

Rob

[olger]

The spirit of unions is best seen in how they treat dissenters.

I have personally witnessed the lazy habits and mindset of union auto workers at GM plants that we have worked on.

[Woody]

I'm not sure whether Red is serious or funnin'. What is there about the words 'this earth' that suggests it only applies to the US?

My comment about right-wingery was simply that for some reason Christians in America seem to reliably line up with the bosses and against the workers. Odd, given Jesus' stance...

Last time I checked the map ... the US is on this earth.

[Neil D]

When I first became an Adventist I was told that Unions were bad for businesses, and that is why not to join them, very Republican kind of statements followed that..

I do not think that is the issue at all.

[Dr. Shane]

It is too simplistic to view the issue as Management vs. Labor. Unions are a third party. The reality isn't just the two parties of Management and Labor. It is Management, Labor and Unions. Unions look out for their own interests more than they look out for the interests of Labor. There have been entire books written by people exposing case after case when decisions were made by a Union that favored the Union at the expense of Labor.

The reality is that all three parties have self-interest at stake. How much is an auto worker worth and who determines that? The market determines it. Last year Toyota and GM sold about the same number of cars. Toyota earn about $17 billion in profits while GM lost $37 billion. What is the difference? UAW. American auto plants in non-union states are producing a profit. The auto industry in the South is doing fine. A new auto plant is even now making plans to build in my area. Toyota opened a new plant in San Antonio a couple of years ago. It is not in Labor's interest for the northern factories to close so why isn't the Union willing to work things out? The Union is the one that kept the bailout bill from passing. The answer is that the Union isn't really looking out for Labor. They are looking after their own self-interests.

I am very hesitant to say Ellen White was wrong about unions. I am also aware of the unions in other countries like Mexico. Unions are every bit corrupt today as they were in the days of Ellen White. It is much better for us to find a career and employment that doesn't require us to join a union. However, that being said, there are certain types of employment that are honorable and unionized. In many areas the health-care industry, teaching, law-enforcement and other government work is all unionized. I believe Adventists do not have to join the union but 80% of the union dues will still be withheld. There are a lot of reforms that need to be done by unions before I think they would no longer be objectionable for Christians.

[Dr. Shane]

Here is a good book that think Ellen White's union comments are outdated.

Betrayal: How Union Bosses Shake Down Their Members and Corrupt American Politics

Quote:

They show that unions do give a lot of money to, and wield a lot of clout with, Democrats, with the usual problems of corruption and favoritism that big money special-interest politics entails. But by the authors' own accounting, unions spend less than 5% of their money on politics—a percentage that, they concede, workers can get refunded from their dues, albeit with some difficulty. And when Chavez and Gray show unions sticking to winning better pay, better benefits and lighter workloads for their members, they damn them for bankrupting companies and driving jobs abroad.

[Neil D]

It is too simplistic to view the issue as Management vs. Labor. Unions are a third party. The reality isn't just the two parties of Management and Labor. It is Management, Labor and Unions. Unions look out for their own interests more than they look out for the interests of Labor. There have been entire books written by people exposing case after case when decisions were made by a Union that favored the Union at the expense of Labor.

[aldona]

Just adding my $0.02 worth, not a specific reply to anybody...

Ideally, if Christian (not just Adventist) workers and management followed the Golden Rule and treated each other with the respect and dignity that they should, then there would be no need for unions, and Christian workplaces would be a model for the world to observe and follow.

Sadly, I have seen and heard of too many examples of Christian (not just Adventist) employers that use the absence of unions among their staff as an excuse for some less-than-Christian behaviour and treatment.

For those who are opposed to unions (both management and workers), what are you doing in your workplace to demonstrate that unions are not necessary in the Christian way of doing business?

aldona

[Robert]

The market determines it. Last year Toyota and GM sold about the same number of cars. Toyota earn about $17 billion in profits while GM lost $37 billion. What is the difference? UAW.

Facts:

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories already are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota -- generally viewed as the main competitor of the Detroit Three -- says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs. [by Tom Krisher and Kimberly S. Johnson, AP Auto Writers]

[Robert]

The market determines it.

"The market" is now the world and in order to compete with exploited workers in places like China, Mexico and India workers in the US eventually will have to give up their labor rights gained primarily through the unions. It's a fast trek to the bottom for the US worker, but for Corporate America it's a win, win situation.

Also, instead of demonizing unions, we need to look at the whole picture when it comes to "the market". Let's me quote Jack:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[Bravus]

Yes, exactly as Robert has said, leaving it purely to the market simply sets up American workers to be exploited the same as those in developing countries, despite America's wealth. Better to keep American workers on good wages and conditions and bring the rest of the world up...

Direct bargaining between the worker and the corporation has been tried in Australia over the past 10 years under the Howard government, and has been shown to dramatically erode wages and conditions. It's a completely unfair situation where the company can have lawyers and negotiators, and hold the threat of job loss over the worker, and outsource to other countries and bring in workers who will work for less, and the worker has nothing - not even the option of strike action - to place against it in bargaining.

And in terms of 'giving up our will to the unions' - do we also 'give up our will to the church?' From the discussion here it seems not, and yet the unions are not that different. They also are democratic institutions, and change can be brought by organising and voting.

[Dr. Shane]

OK, Neil's questions are all answered in my post. Click on the link "Betrayal: How Union Bosses Shake Down Their Members and Corrupt American Politics" and check out the book. Those not wanting to buy it can get a hold of it at a local library. It was published in 2004 by Linda Chavez who was herself a union professional.

I will give a quick example of a union's self-interest. Mrs. Chavez gives many more. The way the union contract is set up with UPS, the company pays the union retirement money and the union manages the retirement fund. The company wanted to manage the fund and offered to increase the worker's retirement pay-out if the company could manage the funds. The company proposed putting it to a vote among the union membership but the union leadership would not allow the union members to vote on it. Fact is that the union wanted that money to manage and was more concerned about what they could do with the money than how much the employees were getting in retirement.

We really have to bury our heads in the sand to believe unions=labor. They don't. As bad as management can be in some companies, unions are not any better. Unions do typically look out for the employees interests more than management but simple because it is a means of gaining power. The worker is simply a pawn for the unions to use in their quest for more power. Workers siding with the union is like the US siding with Saddam in the 1980s. The enemy of our enemy is our friend.

I don't have a perfect solution. Perhaps there isn't one. Bravus has indicated that direct bargaining didn't work well in Australia. Ellen White's solution seems to be that we should stay out of situations where we might have to join a union. In her day, I believe unions were for the unskilled. Today we have many skilled professions that are unionized so her solution isn't always going to solve the problem.

[Taylor]

Good points Shane!

[Neil D]

I will give a quick example of a union's self-interest. Mrs. Chavez gives many more. The way the union contract is set up with UPS, the company pays the union retirement money and the union manages the retirement fund. The company wanted to manage the fund and offered to increase the worker's retirement pay-out if the company could manage the funds. The company proposed putting it to a vote among the union membership but the union leadership would not allow the union members to vote on it. Fact is that the union wanted that money to manage and was more concerned about what they could do with the money than how much the employees were getting in retirement.

So the bottom line is that Unions want power.....power to do what? We all have power, and influence, but unions can't be in existance just for power. If a union is not doing what it needs to do, that is work for the laborer, then unions will cease to exist. Your example of Union goals doesn't make sense. If Unions don't work for the laborer, then why are they around?

Are there problems with the Unions? Are they corrupt? Yes, but managment is far worse. See todays headlines to find some Wall Street big wig running a Ponzi scheme and has produce $50 billion in debts. Look at CEO at Detroit, who come in thier lear jets to ask for money. It wasn't Unions who are asking for money, it's the CEOs, begging for the survival of thier company. You arguements just don't make a lot of sense and don't fit the picture, Shane.

[Taylor]

Yes but Niel just because there is a lot of corruption in coorporations doens't mean there isn't a alot of corruption in unions. The problem is when a business wants to be more ethical or fair or give people more flexibility etc and they can't be becuase they belong to a union.

[Dr. Shane]

Unions have employees. The members of a union are not its employees. The union bosses are in much the same position as the CEOs of the various companies that are unionized. These union bosses are fat cats that often live much higher than the average union member does. Union bosses have made refused to let the union membership vote on contracts that would have passed many times. The result was a strike that hit the union members hard financially.

If one wants to talk about the evil corporations that would be a topic for another thread. This thread is discussing the comments of Ellen White regarding labor unions. The fact that many corporations are as corrupt as the labor unions are is beside the fact. One could argue that corporations are subject to more regulation and oversight than unions are which makes them more accountable.

I think that with some reform unions could become more useful and less corrupt. I believe union members need to have a loader voice in the decisions made by the fat cats.

Quote:

If a union is not doing what it needs to do, that is work for the laborer, then unions will cease to exist.

The unions will not cease to exist if the state or federal governments keep propping them up. This proposed auto bailout bill will do exactly that. If the government does nothing the Big 3 will file bankruptcy and the unions will cease to exist - at least as we have known them.

[Bravus]

I've already stipulated that there are abuses in unions, as there are abuses in corporations. The way you solve abuses is by (a) voting if you're in the union and ( regulating if you're the government. You don't solve abuses by abolishing the entire institution.

[Neil D]

Yes but Niel just because there is a lot of corruption in coorporations doens't mean there isn't a alot of corruption in unions. The problem is when a business wants to be more ethical or fair or give people more flexibility etc and they can't be becuase they belong to a union.

A business wants to be more 'fair"?

My understanding of business is to do more/sell more with less expense...So, when managment comes into UPS and says "We are trialing an experiment", and then reduces the workers during the summer, and increases the work load, and continues to increase the work load and reduce the number of worker untill that becomes the new standard....and then Christmas comes with it's load of packages...resulting in poor delievery, poor condition of packages, and employees who are frantic....no wonder the union steps in and says, hey, either increase the number of employees or increase the cost of health care as your workers are/will be wearing out...

Unions should be a reflection of the workers at a job. Managment has made some real poor managment decisions all in the name of saving money, and it results in a disruption of workers. If you cut one job, that person is out of work...He needs to be compensated if his job is being eliminated. He needs to go back to be retrained...and that is not good on him and his family...How would you like it if your job was being deleted from the job market? Would you not want some form of compensation to help get retrain so that you can be current in the market? Not asking for the world, but we are asking for what is right...

Neil

[Robert]

Are there problems with the Unions? Are they corrupt? Yes, but managment is far worse.

Thank you! Well said...

Rob

[Robert]

I've already stipulated that there are abuses in unions, as there are abuses in corporations. The way you solve abuses is by (a) voting if you're in the union and ( regulating if you're the government. You don't solve abuses by abolishing the entire institution.

Yes, and it seems that the Republicans have been instrumental in keeping regulation out of the market.

[Dr. Shane]

Companies do not look to be fair or generous with employees because they feel like Santa Claus. They look to be fair and generous with employees so they can attract and maintain high quality workers. A constant turnover and continuous training programs cost money both directly and indirectly by reduced productivity.

Not all companies "get it". There are still many old school companies that think they can get away with paying skilled workers low pay and making them work in undesirable conditions. But those companies are getting fewer and fewer and we certainly cannot label all companies as being that way.

Unions should look out for the interest of workers which includes the health of a company. Sadly too often they fail to do so. Likewise companies should be looking for the way to more competitively provide products and services to the consumer. However we know many sadly miss that mark too.

Anti-trust laws are to protect consumers from unethical corporations. In many states, union members are left without means of rooting out corruption in their unions. Work needs to be done in that area.