Moderators John317 Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Posted January 4, 2009 Quote: Jesus said that God's word IS truth. The previous phrase of that verse shows that Jesus was saying that God's word is THE truth. Your interpretation or mine. For ... your God and your interpretation if far different than mine. And this applies to each person here. The word of God-- which Jesus said is the truth-- is not a matter of mere opinion or subjective, private interpretation. God's word is given in the form of objective, propositional truths. That does not mean that every individual is going to agree in detail with every other individual concerning the meaning of those propositional truths. That is not necessary in order for them to be truth. As a matter of fact, they are truth even if every person on earth were to deny they are truth. God's truth does not depend on man's acceptance or understanding of the truth. For instance, the Bible is very clear that "Jesus is the Christ." That is an objective truth. It means that if someone says, "Jesus is NOT the Christ," they either misunderstand the sentence or are lying. In any case, they are not telling the truth. Again, the Bible says that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and remains in the flesh. The Bible says if someone denies this truth, he is a liar and an antichrist. 2 John 7. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Posted January 4, 2009 No, John - atheists also believe they have found the truth, and are not seeking. They have closed off their minds to the possibility of faith. What that quote means (to me) is to beware of those who are in that position, no matter what specific belief system they espouse. Christians who believe they already have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth are closed off to the possibility of growth in understanding, and are therefore dangerous. To stop growing is to start dying. Recognising that our knowledge of the truth is partial and incomplete is not the same as placing a low value on the truth we already hold. We can hold to our truth and let it have its way with our lives, yet still be actively seeking to learn more. That's the approach I'm advocating. Quote Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Posted January 4, 2009 We're in agreement on that. I am used to talking to people who do not believe that objective, true truth exists, or else that we can know what truth is. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Posted January 4, 2009 WE have to always be willing to follow the Biblical evidence. For instance, if I believe that Sunday (or Sabbath) is the right day for worship, I should always be open to evidence from the Scriptures that I could be wrong. That doesn't mean I do not believe I am right to believe what I do, but it means that I am open to evidence if I find any that genuinely contradicts my current conviction. I always study with that in mind. That is why it is important for every generation of SDAs to study the sanctuary truth and all the other SDA doctrines in the light of revelation. We shouldn't believe something just because our forefathers believed it. The truth has to be our truth, individually and personally, in order to be meaningful. The main point I was objecting to is the belief which some espouse that there is no such thing as objective truth but that it is all a matter of opinion and subjective interpretation. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
messenger Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Hey John, I agree with you. The other thing is that God says, "I am the way, the truth and the life"... and also "sanctify them by the truth, my word is truth" john 17:17 He did not say that our interpretation of His word is truth but that His Word is Truth! God is the creator of truth, the originator of truth, if He says His Word is truth, then I am going to believe that! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators Bravus Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Posted January 4, 2009 That is correct but not all that useful in the context of this discussion, unless you believe that you have direct access to His Word without any interpretation on your part. Quote Truth is important
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 There are many things that by study of the word of God we can rightly divide truth and come up with the right interpretation and then we have the truth because His word is true. But if some interpret it but have the wrong interpretation and many do, then they are lacking spiritual truth. But whether I interpret it correctly or not. God's Word is truth! Not necessarily my interpretation of it. Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Members phkrause Posted January 5, 2009 Members Posted January 5, 2009 pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Let's assume for the moment that every person on earth rejects the truth of God as revealed in the Bible. Would that mean that the word of God is not truth? Not if it is objectively true, it wouldn't. It is objectively true no matter whether anyone believes it to be true or not. Here is an example of an objective truth that God has revealed to us. Ellen White wrote that Christ could have returned over a hundred years ago and that His coming was delayed due to the church's rebellion against God. The problem is that there are people who will read these statements and say they believe Ellen White was a prophet of God, yet they will deny that there has been a delay in the Second Coming: Quote: Had Adventists after the great disappointment in 1844 held fast their faith and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. . . . It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. . . . Last Day Events (1992), page 37, paragraph 5 For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years.--Ev 695, 696 (1883). Last Day Events (1992), page 38, paragraph 1 The Delay Explained The long night of gloom is trying, but the morning is deferred in mercy, because if the Master should come so many would be found unready.--2T 194 (1868). Last Day Events (1992), page 37, paragraph 4 Satan Has Stolen a March on Us.--If every watchman on the walls of Zion had given the trumpet a certain sound, the world might ere this have heard the message of warning. But the work is years behind. While men have slept, Satan has stolen a march upon us.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 29. (1909); Evangelism (1946), page 694, paragraph 5 In this case, is it that Ellen White is unclear and that our interpretations are all subjective and equally valid and right; or is it that some refuse to see what the truth is? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Amen, Brother John, good example and very good message quoted! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 There are many things that by study of the word of God we can rightly divide truth and come up with the right interpretation and then we have the truth because His word is true. But if some interpret it but have the wrong interpretation and many do, then they are lacking spiritual truth. But whether I interpret it correctly or not. God's Word is truth! Not necessarily my interpretation of it. Then why is it, that so many people, ours included, feel the burden to correct those who are ...um [ let me try to be as inclusive as I can] either mistaken, not up to a full understanding, or have misinterpreted the scriptures? the bible clearly says that it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict and to guide people into truth. Why are our people so prone to become as God in this area? And yet, how does one say "I have a superior knowledge of the scripture" without coming across as arrogant? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. Â George Bernard Shaw Â
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Then why is it, that so many people, ours included, feel the burden to correct those who are ...um [ let me try to be as inclusive as I can] either mistaken, not up to a full understanding, or have misinterpreted the scriptures? the bible clearly says that it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict and to guide people into truth. Why are our people so prone to become as God in this area? And yet, how does one say "I have a superior knowledge of the scripture" without coming across as arrogant? That is why God put the gifts of teaching and preaching, etc., in the church. The Holy Spirit uses Christians to bring conviction and truth to people's minds and hearts. The NT itself instructs believers to talk to each other and encourage each other in the faith. None of us is as God in this area, and we need to be careful in how we talk to people because some people resent it whereas others are quite open to discussing differences in views, etc. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: messenger There are many things that by study of the word of God we can rightly divide truth and come up with the right interpretation and then we have the truth because His word is true. But if some interpret it but have the wrong interpretation and many do, then they are lacking spiritual truth. But whether I interpret it correctly or not. God's Word is truth! Not necessarily my interpretation of it. Then why is it, that so many people, ours included, feel the burden to correct those who are ...um [ let me try to be as inclusive as I can] either mistaken, not up to a full understanding, or have misinterpreted the scriptures? the bible clearly says that it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict and to guide people into truth. Why are our people so prone to become as God in this area? And yet, how does one say "I have a superior knowledge of the scripture" without coming across as arrogant? I believe the answer to that is in that verse in John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth... If we have faith and live by the word of God as Christ did and told us to. "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." If we do live by it, He will or it (the Word) will sanctify us. We will be come more like God-like Christ that is the objective also made clear in that same chapter John 17. Christ prays that we may become one with Him and the Father. We will be known by the way we live and act. "By their fruits you will know them... the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives consistently is evidence that we have the truth of God and are being sanctified by it. And we do not or should not go around saying "I have a superior knowledge of the scriptures... in an arrogant way. If we have the fruit of the spirit we are not arrogant or boastful etc. I would ad that I agree with John317 statement too, because if we are living by the truth in addition to receiving the fruit of the Spirit, some will receive the gifts of the Spirit and that included teaching and preaching and making truth more clear and plain to others. Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Are there, then, any areas in which you know your interpretation to be flawed or incomplete? Is there any scope for your own understanding to grow? Or is it all about everyone else coming to understand the things you already know. Once again, I am not disputing (for the moment) the idea that the Bible reveals objective truth. What I am questioning is the idea of direct and perfect access to that on the part of flawed human beings. The clear subtext of much that is being said is that those saying it have such access, or at least are not capable or willing to acknowledge that their own understanding might be less than complete. Quote Truth is important
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Are there, then, any areas in which you know your interpretation to be flawed or incomplete? Is there any scope for your own understanding to grow? Or is it all about everyone else coming to understand the things you already know. Once again, I am not disputing (for the moment) the idea that the Bible reveals objective truth. What I am questioning is the idea of direct and perfect access to that on the part of flawed human beings. The clear subtext of much that is being said is that those saying it have such access, or at least are not capable or willing to acknowledge that their own understanding might be less than complete. I personally do not profess or believe that I know all the truth that there is and that I am not in need of learning more. But God must think we are capable of understanding His Word and finding the truth in it. Christ says in the first chapter of Rev. "Blessed is he that reads and understands and keep the words and things that are written etc. I am paraphrasing but, it is clear He expects us to understand it and live by it! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 ... Once again, I am not disputing (for the moment) the idea that the Bible reveals objective truth. What I am questioning is the idea of direct and perfect access to that on the part of flawed human beings. The clear subtext of much that is being said is that those saying it have such access, or at least are not capable or willing to acknowledge that their own understanding might be less than complete. Of course everyone, including the prophets and apostles-- and, to some extent, even the human consciousness of Jesus Himself-- has had room for growth and learning. If God revealed truth in the Bible, He certainly means for people to be able to understand that truth, at least to a significant degree. It seems unreasonable, and to contradict the Bible itself, to say that there is truth but we cannot know what it is. It says that the Holy Spirit is given to us in order that we might know the truth. Would scientists accept the notion that they must know everything perfectly before they can claim rightly that they know anything with certainty? Of course, without question, all scientists would justifiably deny any such notion. And if that is true of scientists, how much more should the notion be rejected by people who accept the Bible as God's revelation and are relying on the Holy Spirit to teach them. For instance, we know some things for certain about God-- things which God has revealed to us in the Bible. We can speak positively about them, yet there is a great deal that we don't know about God. He hasn't revealed all knowledge about Himself. Yet we do not need to know all things in reference to God before we can speak with absolute assurance about some things. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Agreed, and that's not a claim I'm making either. There is revealed truth to live by in the Bible, and we are expected to understand it and to live by it. The whole purpose of the thread is to call for humility and openness in relation to 'disputable matters'. Sorry for the longish quote, but the whole chapter gives the whole argument: Romans 14 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 (and dare I stir the pot even a little further by noting that it's very clearly the more 'conservative' positions on each of the issues that Paul describes as displaying weaker faith and the more 'liberal' position that he states that he is fully convinced of himself?) Quote Truth is important
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Bravus, you said, "The whole purpose of the thread is to call for humility and openness in relation to 'disputable matters'." That is not what my understanding of this thread was about. I thought we were defining what "truth" is! Your Bible text in Romans only supports what we were saying and that you were not getting, that the Word is truth. Now you are quoting the word to support what you believe to be truth! So, you are after all agreeing that the word is truth! Do not make it about me personally or anybody else as to if we have flawed understanding. I have never claimed to be perfect or to know everything. That is not relevant, regardless of my understanding of the Word, the Word is still truth! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 "Blessed is he that reads and understands and keep the words and things that are written etc. I am paraphrasing but, it is clear He expects us to understand it and live by it! Understand it, yes!!! I agree....but to take on the Holy Spirit's job.... ABSOLUTELY NO!!!! We can not be running into the Holy Spirit and taking His job away from Him....At the very best we can hope for, if we do take it away, is 2nd best. Whereas if we let Him do His job, it always comes out first class best... I know that it is a fine line to preach the gospel, and I know that it's one thing to preach to a group of people....it's a totally different thing when it comes to one on one...When Christ talked to the woman at the well, he didn't say, " You filthy harlot. clean up your act or you will burn." He didn't start with some fancy theological arguent. He didn't even say, "Hey, you want to hear the Gospel?" What did He do? He reached out to her as one human to another..."I'm thirsty." says He. "Can I have a drink?"...Totally different approach than to demand a hearing...He asks for something to relive His suffering...I can identify with suffering...and if it is with in my power, that doesn't take much effort, I can definately help to relieve some suffering... But to plow thru, force this gospel into someones throat.....not cool.. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. Â George Bernard Shaw Â
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Agreed, and that's not a claim I'm making either. There is revealed truth to live by in the Bible, and we are expected to understand it and to live by it. The whole purpose of the thread is to call for humility and openness in relation to 'disputable matters'. Sorry for the longish quote, but the whole chapter gives the whole argument: Romans 14 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. ... 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. I agree with you so far as that goes. The issue comes down to what are "disputable matters." Some would say that virtually everything is a disputable matter, even whether the Bible is actually God's word and to what extent we can depend on it to reveal the truth to us. For many it is also disputable whether Ellen White was a true prophet or whether the dead are unconscious in their graves or conscious in heaven. These are matters that each of us has to answer for ourselves through our own study and prayer. They can't be answered for us by anyone else. We can't believe in Ellen White or even in the Bible simply on the basis of someone else's word. We have to know for ourselves. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Stan Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. Do what is so great about having the TRUTH? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Â
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. Do what is so great about having the TRUTH? Dude, you hit the nail on the head....I missed it... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. Â George Bernard Shaw Â
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. Do what is so great about having the TRUTH? The love you are talking about comes for the Word of Truth, from the Holy Spirit the God that gave us His Word, His truth! God is Love and that is truth we learn in His Word! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Understand it, yes!!! I agree....but to take on the Holy Spirit's job.... ABSOLUTELY NO!!!! We can not be running into the Holy Spirit and taking His job away from Him....At the very best we can hope for, if we do take it away, is 2nd best. Whereas if we let Him do His job, it always comes out first class best... I know that it is a fine line to preach the gospel, and I know that it's one thing to preach to a group of people....it's a totally different thing when it comes to one on one... What is giving Bible studies but preaching or teaching one on one? When we give Bible studies, the Holy Spirit is using people to bring conviction to men's hearts through the word of God. It's not our word but God's word that makes the real difference. That doesn't mean anyone is taking the Holy Spirit's job away from Him. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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