Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 The love you are talking about comes for the Word of Truth, from the Holy Spirit the God that gave us His Word, His truth! God is Love and that is truth we learn in His Word! while that is correct, it is not right....God is love, yes. His word is given in Love. yes...It is given so that we may reflect His love and/or be known as children of love. Love knows the truth...and that is how we can know the Truth, as it produces Love... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Neil, how did you get me quoting a bible text from Revelation. That I was saying to take the place of the Holy Spirit. And you said, "But to plow thru, force this gospel into someones throat.....not cool.." Who is doing that? Look it, all Christians now that spiritual things are spiritually discerned, It is the Holy Spirit that guides us to and understanding of Bible Truth, but we are told to read it, keep it, live by it, to have faith in it as the inspired Word of God. This is the bible text I was trying to quote: Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Where do you see me saying we need to take the place of the Holy Spirit? Really! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: Bravus, you said, "The whole purpose of the thread is to call for humility and openness in relation to 'disputable matters'." That is not what my understanding of this thread was about. I thought we were defining what "truth" is! Might want to re-read Redwood's thread-starting post, then: I think it's pretty clear was that his point was 'given that there are differences, let's keep studying and trying to understand, but do it in humility and kindness'. But in terms of defining 'truth', are you stating a 1:1 relationship between the concept of truth and the Bible? I don't think that's sustainable. It's a logic problem: we can say 'all of the Bible is true' but not 'all of truth is the Bible', in the same way that we can say 'all of Mrs Jones is dead' but not 'all of the class of dead people is Mrs Jones'. The truth that there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine, for example, is not found in the Bible but is nonetheless truth. Quote: Your Bible text in Romans only supports what we were saying and that you were not getting, that the Word is truth. Now you are quoting the word to support what you believe to be truth! So, you are after all agreeing that the word is truth! Do not make it about me personally or anybody else as to if we have flawed understanding. I have never claimed to be perfect or to know everything. That is not relevant, regardless of my understanding of the Word, the Word is still truth! The Word is true, but as shown above, saying 'the Word is truth' is over-claiming. There is other truth not encompassed in the Word. It should not contradict the Word, so perhaps there is some kind of litmus test there, but general relativity theory, for example, is true (for a given value of true, which we can get into more if you like) but is neither compatible nor incompatible with Scripture. Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Are there people who know the Truth but do not act in love? Or is that an oxymoron, and those who *really* know the Truth cannot help but act in love? Perhaps that's a better litmus test than a text-battle... Quote Truth is important
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 What is giving Bible studies but preaching or teaching one on one? When we give Bible studies, the Holy Spirit is using people to bring conviction to men's hearts through the word of God. It's not our word but God's word that makes the real difference. That doesn't mean anyone is taking the Holy Spirit's job away from Him. Does Preaching =Bible Studies? No, bible studies are just that..studying the bible and discussing it and allowing it to work on you...It is also discussing it with your fellow brothern and watching it work on them...This is where the Holy Spirit really works actively on people...Preaching or church, does a little, but not to the extent that bible studies does. Too often, bible studies is used as another form of preaching...The bereans studied the scripture themselves, not listen to a fellow brother preach..."to show themselves approved by God"...not "to show themselves approved by Paul or the Apostles" Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 So the Word is Jesus, not (or as well as) the Bible? Should Jesus' reported words then trump everything else in the Bible? And might things Jesus doesn't talk about potentially be flawed? I'm not trying to be argumentative but to get you to clearly define your terms, since you seem to be shifting the basic assumptions of the discussion. Quote Truth is important
Stan Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen Quote: 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. Do what is so great about having the TRUTH? The love you are talking about comes for the Word of Truth, from the Holy Spirit the God that gave us His Word, His truth! God is Love and that is truth we learn in His Word! What does Truth without love look like? Truth does not give you love Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Neil, how did you get me quoting a bible text from Revelation. That I was saying to take the place of the Holy Spirit. And you said, "But to plow thru, force this gospel into someones throat.....not cool.." Who is doing that? Look it, all Christians now that spiritual things are spiritually discerned, It is the Holy Spirit that guides us to and understanding of Bible Truth, but we are told to read it, keep it, live by it, to have faith in it as the inspired Word of God. This is the bible text I was trying to quote: Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Where do you see me saying we need to take the place of the Holy Spirit? Really! I never said that you were doing that....Nor John..nor Bravus....Never said that at all... Just that I was/have seen it before....and not necessarily just here on this forum....My question, to which I get easily side tracked is why WE humans try to take away the Holy Spirits Job of convicting and guiding... Shoot, I used to be as gun ho as the next Christian...I used to do battle texting....I did a reasonable job of it...until one day someone quietly asked me whose side I was on..."The Lords side, of course!" I responded..."Really?...I'll keep that in mind the next time you take some one on." I was dumbfounded...I slowed way down on my knee-jerk reactions...[Remember what I did to you on the first post???] Couldn't tell, could you?....yup.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Stan Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Well, to answer my question... Truth without love is constant confrontation with knowledge.. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Well, to answer my question... Truth without love is constant confrontation with knowledge.. And we all know who has the most accurate spiritual knowledge....Satan...He out does us every time....And he's not saved. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. Do what is so great about having the TRUTH? The truth as it is in Jesus-- the word of God-- is able to make us wise for salvation through faith in Jesus. 2 Tim 3: 15-16: Quote: .... Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: When we give Bible studies, the Holy Spirit is using people to bring conviction to men's hearts through the word of God. On the face of it, I agree, but...SDA's are not the only ones giving Bible studies, so....I reckon the Holy Spirit works with them as well. Which means, in my mind, it is the work of the Holy Spirit and that means we are not to try and determine it's results, ie, what happens to the individual life may not to be to our expectations. Truth is not a static idea, rather it is dynamic. Gods word may be truth, but not ours. So we must to leave it to the working of the Holy Spirit in each individual. Yes, of course. I never intended to imply that SDAs are the only ones giving Bible studies. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 My friend Niel, I refuse to comment on your last question on the grounds that it may incriminate me! LOL! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Stan, I would agree with you on all. I never said or implied otherwise! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen Well, to answer my question... Truth without love is constant confrontation with knowledge.. And we all know who has the most accurate spiritual knowledge....Satan...He out does us every time....And he's not saved. Yes, that is true. But it is not knowledge alone that saves anyone. The knowledge of Satan doesn't bring him faith and repentance. That's the big difference. Saving knowledge is mixed with faith and brings us to willing, loving obedience. 2 John 6-- "Love means that we should live by obeying His Word" (New Life New Testament). Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 My friend Niel, I refuse to comment on your last question on the grounds that it may incriminate me! LOL! Don't worry, I will keep your secret...and I have LOTS of them....Muhahahahahahh!!! I must go...Stay blessed you guys... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Neil D Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Yes, that is true. But it is not knowledge alone that saves anyone. The knowledge of Satan doesn't bring him faith and repentance. That's the big difference. Saving knowledge is mixed with faith and brings us to willing, loving obedience. gonna give you the quick and dirty reply, John as I have to leave... While you are correct, you error just a bit....me thinks... they way that you put it, knowledge is ultimately a tool to be welded...rather it is programing...It is incorporated into the individual such that he be comes as Jesus did...fulll of grace and truth...and thus we become known as children of God....because our programing allows us to take the principles of the bible and extend love to the people around us...Your way shows it be a tool to be taken out and used from time to time.... must go...sorry this isn't better scripted. perhaps I am semantically wrong... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
messenger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: messenger The love you are talking about comes for the Word of Truth, from the Holy Spirit the God that gave us His Word, His truth! God is Love and that is truth we learn in His Word! [/quote'] What does Truth without love look like? Truth does not give you love It is not truth that is so great, it is the truth of God's word that reveals Him, His love and teaches us how to love like Him. His word teaches us the truth about love and Him etc. "Sanctify them by the truth, your word is truth" These were some of the last words in prayer for us, Christ thought it was important for us to know the truth. And of course the truth is God is love. And all genuine love comes from God. How do I know this? The Bible tells me so! Amen! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 So the Word is Jesus, not (or as well as) the Bible? The Word of God is both Jesus and the written word, the Bible. Some dispute that the Bible is the word of God at all. For many today it is merely a record of some men's confrontation with God, but they don't believe that any objective knowledge about God was communicated. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Neil, All of our reasoning is subjective... there is no objective reasoning. Since truth by definition is objective, i.e. outside of the scope of the subjective reasoning... it can still be in alignment with someone's subjectivity. Thus A=B=C. Objective does not exclude subjective necessarily. These two notions can overlap. For example, term "hot" is subjective description of the objective "hot" object. Hot could be interpreted differently by anyone you ask... it could be a "beautiful person" or "hot as fire" but it does not mean that the objective hot being described does not align itself with A subjective interpretation. Likewise, it bothers me when people say "we know the truth and we need to share with other people". I think a proper way to say it is "We BELIEVE to know the truth and we need to share the REASONS for our belief with other people." I believe that's the reason that our evangelism efforts land rock bottom in North America. We share the truth as "the truth" and not as "reasons for a belief in truth". Thus.... "You are a sinner", "You are going to hell without Christ", "Christ died for you", "Bible is true because it says so"... and we don't share the reasons... at least to some extend that we should. These arguments will be absurd to a reasonable person who does not have a solid grasp on Biblical theology of God's will and purpose. My parents are one of such people. Some of the questions they ask: 1) If being "good" is to obey the principles of "God's word" by "faith", then why would God punish those who obey the same principles outside of faith? There are repented villains, and there are charitable unbelievers... Bible states that the villains will be in heaven, and the charitable unbelievers will burn in hell fire. Is it just? 2) Let's say that you are a father, and your child does not know that he has a father. As a result of that separation he turns to drugs and life of crime. Can you blame the child for rejecting the father when he shows up at the door? Why couldn't the father be there every step of the way... and not just reveal himself through some human organization that claims to direct you to God in return for tithes? 3) What's the difference between believing in Mohamed or Jesus? Both are making supernatural claims that can not be verified. Will God punish me for an honest attempt at following truth as evidence of it was presented to me? If I told you "Go to the casino and put your life savings on number 35..." would you blame me for not doing so? So, if God did exist and wanted a personal relationship, why is that he hides himself... and instead people knock at your door asking you to join the church and pay 10th for their services? These are just few questions... and these are valid questions that I honestly have hard time answering. In Soviet Russia people have been "had" time, after time, after time. They don't easily trust people tell them about the "good life" after they've been through some ruff times. I honestly don't see how God can hold a child of drug addict accountable for following and learning from the father... And I trust and pray that my view of justice perhaps more true than what we have heard from pulpits today. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Yes, that is true. But it is not knowledge alone that saves anyone. The knowledge of Satan doesn't bring him faith and repentance. That's the big difference. Saving knowledge is mixed with faith and brings us to willing, loving obedience. gonna give you the quick and dirty reply, John as I have to leave... While you are correct, you error just a bit....me thinks... they way that you put it, knowledge is ultimately a tool to be welded...rather it is programing...It is incorporated into the individual such that he be comes as Jesus did...fulll of grace and truth...and thus we become known as children of God....because our programing allows us to take the principles of the bible and extend love to the people around us...Your way shows it be a tool to be taken out and used from time to time.... must go...sorry this isn't better scripted. perhaps I am semantically wrong... No, you are not wrong at all here. But why would you think that I am saying anything differently? The knowledge I am talking about is not some "tool". Where do you get the idea that I view it as a tool to be taken out and used from time to time? The kind of knowledge which the Bible speaks of is the sort that changes us to be more and more like Jesus as we live with Him day by day. 2 Cor. 3: 18. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Posted January 5, 2009 Might want to have a read of the second half of this post. Quote Truth is important
olger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Sorry to disagree with my esteemed Pirate Captain ... but if you would please note what was said. He said that there would be a time when A=B=C . This is true and quite possible at times. No reason why all three could not be the same at times. And in fact they are most certainly equal at times. Sorry, this statement is itself a subjective statement. This is the essence of what you just said "Since reality for each person is an internal construct (different in every person because no two are the same), the idea of one sovereign creator who defines right and wrong becomes untenable. On this basis we must be prepared to accept all other ideas and behaviors as equally correct." `og Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
olger Posted January 5, 2009 Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. Do what is so great about having the TRUTH? What has error done for anyone? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
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